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WTTC 2023 - Hayata/Ito/Hirano/Kihara/Nagasaki

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2023 at 3:39pm
Not having defeated Ito once to this date after a year into the race is a deal breaker for Hayata to make that claim. Frankly, she should've downed Ito at Zennoh Cup Fukuoka, ideally in the same manner as Hirano did at Zennoh Cup Funabashi.

While it sounds good for Hayata to fend off Nagasaki, Kihara and Harimoto with a 100% win rate (Ito is worst in this case at 25%, and Hirano in-between at 50%, having met only Kihara so far), when Nagasaki, Kihara, Shibata, Hirano and Harimoto have all managed it in that same span of time puts Hayata in a bad light.

And if we turn to the international scene, the fact that she could not play in the final against China at WTTC 2022 has put a big dent in her credibility, reliablity and dependability, because she is expected to take on 3 events all the way until Paris 2024.

The upcoming Zennihon Takkyu 2023 will make the perfect kick-off for Hayata to win the XD, WD and in the WS, potentially get past Harimoto (please lose, Shibata), Hirano, Kato (please lose, Ishikawa) and Ito (please lose, Nagasaki and Kihara) to not only assume her alpha female status, but FORCE it down everyone's throat. Like Hirano said after shutting out Ito at Zennoh Cup Funabashi:

https://world-tt.com/blog/news/archives/42525
「誰に勝ちたいというよりも レベルの高い全員に勝たなければ �£表になれないと思う」(平野)
"Rather than who I want to beat, I don't think you can become a representative unless you beat every high-level player." - Hirano

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%8D%A8%E6%88%91%E5%85%B6%E8%AA%B0#Chinese
Quote From Mencius:

    夫天,未欲平治天下也;如欲平治天下,當今之世,舍我其誰也?吾何為不豫哉?

    But Heaven does not yet wish that the kingdom should enjoy tranquillity and good order. If it wished this, who is there besides me to bring it about? How should I be otherwise than dissatisfied?


Edited by zeio - 01/20/2023 at 3:49pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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pongfugrasshopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2023 at 3:57pm
Being number 1 isn't about head to head vs. a single player especially since Hayata and Ito haven't played many head to head matches.  They did have that one encounter at the 2nd Paris trials where Mima won 11-9 in the 7th so it was a *very* close match and Mima *really* needed a win to get back into the race (I remember rooting for her to win even though I support both).  But none of the Japanese women are as consistent against their fellow competitors than HH.  That's why she's the clear leader in the points race in the very hotly contested race with an Olympic spot at stake.  Big question will be injuries.  I'm hopeful that she will remain healthy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2023 at 11:35am
Oh, it is, no matter how it gets downplayed. ITO Jyota even uses the fact that Hayata and Ishikawa being in the same quarter at Lion Cup due to the the fixed draw as the root cause for Ishikawa missing out on WTTC 2022 and subsequently WTTC 2023. Questionable logic, but the way he breaks down the points gained by the leading players is just another form of H2H.



The bottom line? Only Ito and Hirano have managed to beat Hayata so far. Only Hirano has managed to beat Ito and Hayata in the same tournament so far. Only Hayata, among the top 6 in leaderboard plus Harimoto, has yet to beat Ito. She had the chance to beat Hirano, Ito, and Ishikawa consecutively at Zennoh Cup Fukuoka when "her table tennis was totally different". Can she manage it at the upcoming Zennihon Takkyu 2023? If not, she will remain merely the "leading player" in points.

A breakdown of the domestic encounters for the top 3 since the race started:
Hayata vs
Shibata - 1 time (Lion Cup R16 4-1)
Ishikawa - 1 time (Lion Cup QF 4-3)
Kihara - 3 times (Lion Cup SF 4-2; Nojima Cup SF 4-0; Zennoh Cup Funabashi SF 4-2)
Nagasaki - 2 times (Lion Cup F 4-3, Zennoh Cup Fukuoka 3rd-4th 4-2)
Hirano - 3 times (Nojima Cup F 4-1; Zennoh Cup Fukuoka QF 4-0; Zennoh Cup Funabashi F 2-4)
Ito - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Fukuoka SF 3-4)
Harimoto - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Funabashi QF 4-2)

Ito vs
Harimoto - 2 times (Lion Cup R16 4-1; Zennoh Cup Funabashi 5th-6th 1-4)
Nagasaki - 1 time (Lion Cup QF 2-4)
Hashimoto - 1 time (Lion Cup 5th-8th 4-1)
Ishikawa - 3 times (Lion Cup 5th-6th W/O win; Nojima Cup R16 4-2; Zennoh Cup Fukuoka F 4-0)
Kato - 2 times (Asian Games 2022 Trial Grp A 4-0; Zennoh Cup Fukuoka QF 4-1)
Hashimoto - 1 time (Asian Games 2022 Trial Grp A 4-0)
Kihara - 1 time (Asian Games 2022 Trial Grp A 2-4)
Shibata - 1 time (Nojima Cup QF 3-4)
Hayata - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Fukuoka SF 4-3)
Hirano - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Funabashi QF 0-4)
Sato - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Funabashi 5th-8th 4-2)

Hirano vs
Kihara - 2 times (Lion Cup QF 2-4; Asian Games 2022 Trial F 4-0)
Ishikawa - 2 times (Lion Cup 5th-8th 3-4; Asian Games 2022 Trial Grp B 4-0)
Hashimoto - 1 time (Lion Cup 7th-8th 0-4)
Namba - 1 time (Asian Games 2022 Trial Grp B 4-1)
Sato - 1 time (Asian Games 2022 Trial Grp B 4-2)
Shibata - 2 times (Nojima Cup SF 4-1; Zennoh Cup Funabashi SF 4-2)
Hayata - 3 times (Nojima Cup F 1-4; Zennoh Cup Fukuoka QF 0-4; Zennoh Cup Funabashi F 4-2)
Mori - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Fukuoka R16 4-1)
Kato - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Fukuoka 5th-8th 3-4)
Hashimoto - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Fukuoka 7th-8th 2-4)
Yokoi - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Funabashi R16 4-3)
Ito - 1 time (Zennoh Cup Funabashi QF 4-0)

Edited by zeio - 01/22/2023 at 8:50am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2023 at 11:58am
HH has only been beaten by the two strongest Japanese women [Edit: after her].  That's pretty incredible considering the level of talent of the top Japanese women.  I think in one of the interviews, she was actually surprised winning 4-2 over Harimoto after just having recovered from injury but that speaks to how good she is even when not at her best.  This upcoming Empress Cup is going to be a huge challenge though.  The others will all be gunning for her.

[Edit:]
To illustrate this a bit, I've taken your stats and filtered the losses.  Leading player in points is nothing to sneeze at.  Her results speaks to her stability as a player.

Losses for the top 3 Japanese women:

Hayata:
Hirano - Zennoh Cup Funabashi F 2-4
Ito - Zennoh Cup Fukuoka SF 3-4

Ito:
Harimoto - Zennoh Cup Funabashi 5th-6th 1-4
Nagasaki - 1 time (Lion Cup QF 2-4)
Kihara - Asian Games 2022 Trial Grp A 2-4
Shibata - Nojima Cup QF 3-4
Hirano - Zennoh Cup Funabashi QF 0-4

Hirano:
Kihara - Lion Cup QF 2-4
Ishikawa - Lion Cup 5th-8th 3-4
Hashimoto - Lion Cup 7th-8th 0-4
Hayata - Nojima Cup F 1-4; Zennoh Cup Fukuoka QF 0-4
[Edit] zeio's results missing Kato - 2nd trial 5th-8th  3-4


Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 01/21/2023 at 7:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2023 at 3:39am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2023 at 3:40am
馬龍を破£た吉村真晴、最新号での独白「ここで逃げ出したり、試合で負けるわけにはいかない」
https://world-tt.com/blog/news/archives/54990
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2023 at 4:33am
TV rating:
The final day of Zennoh Cup Funabashi got 3.911 million people in average viewership. TV broadcast by Fuji TV.
The final day of Zennoh Cup Fukuoka got 1.676 million people in average viewership. TV broadcast by TV Tokyo.
The final day of Lion Cup didn't make the top 10. TV broadcast by TV Tokyo.

https://www.videor.co.jp/tvrating/2022/11/73042.html

https://www.videor.co.jp/audience/2022/11/73112.html


https://www.videor.co.jp/tvrating/2022/09/71817.html

https://www.videor.co.jp/audience/2022/09/71887.html


https://www.videor.co.jp/tvrating/2022/03/53292.html

https://www.videor.co.jp/audience/2022/03/57952.html
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2023 at 2:34pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kEzgVuNpuA&list=PL7mDcpZ4nKGk1hqaH2p1VFZaM4KvdGgrs&index=1
Latest episode of Table Tennis Japan on Hirano (geo blocked). Kurashima gives more detail of Hirano's 3 areas of improvement that Takagi Mina touched on in an earlier article.

FUJII Hiroko: Hirano has created the table tennis of today


Kurashima on Hirano being the epitome of table tennis with overwhelming speed back in 2017 when Japanese table tennis lacked power in comparison to Chinese and European players


But then (CNT) players caught on and adapted


Kurashima: Overhaul of service, forehand and footwork


Coming up with a game plan against Ito a month ahead. If she couldn't beat Ito, then no WTTC 2023





Key to beating Ito being "keep it simple"




But the SF against Shibata was the climax since the finish line was so close



@30:38, Kurashima can't help but be amused by having 3 great prodigies in the same generation. @17:00, he comments that Hirano's chiquita is strong as the men's in spin and speed







Hirano on using the T.League to try out new things



Hirano: It's of utmost importance to grow into a player who can win against anyone.


Members for WTTC 2023



LGY: Can't you folks just leave me alone?



Edited by zeio - 01/22/2023 at 2:40pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2023 at 2:34pm
___ million yens in earnings for 2022. Income does not match win rate. Equal play for equal pay?

https://www.bonus.jp/about-us/blog/athletes-salary-2020#h2_3
https://nlab.itmedia.co.jp/nl/articles/2009/04/news134.html#l_nk_sportnenshu_01_w590.jpg
https://rank1-media.com/I0000149
https://koremaru.com/215/

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1136863
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Ishikawa reiterates her determination to keep competing in international competitions in an exclusive interview with Hochi News, despite noting that Paris 2024 is not on her mind now.

石川佳純の決意 今後も世界を舞台に「自分がやりたいと思うところまで」…単独インタビュー
https://hochi.news/articles/20230117-OHT1T51122.html?page=1
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/dfcdfd83fbe6cb2f4224b8e5567fb331a51fbb87
Quote  「パリ五輪のことは今は考えていません。目指すか目指さないかは別にして、もし4回目を目指さなければ引退しなければいけないのか。その選択肢は極端すぎると思います。卓球は好きですし、プロ選手として自分がやりたいと思うところまでやるべきだという考えです。やりたいところまでやらせてもらえる環境があるのはありがたいこと。それは五輪で3回頑張�£た分、今もらえている権利でもある。だからこそ、目の前の試合にベストの状態でコートに立つことが、自分の責任だと思�£ています」


http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1136550
Quote Ishikawa has the guts to say that with a 66.67% win rate in 2022.

https://world-tt.com/blog/news/archives/47658
Quote 「自分がやりたいと思うところまでは卓球をやりたいし、やらせてほしい。そういう気持ちです。誰かに言われて卓球をやめるとか、そういうことは全くないです」と明言している。卓球界のアイコン、「カスミン」にはも�£と長く現役として卓球を続けてほしいとみんなが思�£ている。

Ishikawa: "I want to play table tennis as far as I want, and I want you to let me do it."

News magazine Shukan Shincho takes a stab at "reporting" the criticisms of the selection system for Paris 2024 by ITO Jyota, Mizutani, Ishikawa etc.
https://www.dailyshincho.jp/article/2023/01011056/?all=1
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/c62bb560c56040e251be26494931c40f70599f9d
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2023 at 2:27am
Not according to script. Hayata will remain the ONLY one to not have defeated Ito in this cycle.

https://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1136960&title=wttc-2023-hayata-ito-hirano-kihara-nagasaki#1136960
Quote The upcoming Zennihon Takkyu 2023 will make the perfect kick-off for Hayata to win the XD, WD and in the WS, potentially get past Harimoto (please lose, Shibata), Hirano, Kato (please lose, Ishikawa) and Ito (please lose, Nagasaki and Kihara) to not only assume her alpha female status, but FORCE it down everyone's throat.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2023 at 3:25am
Ito is in deep water now. She will drop from 2nd to at least 3rd (Hirano has recovered the point deficit now) and highly likely 4th (provided Kihara beats Suzuki and will rise to 2nd if Hirano loses to Hayata) in player standings. Depending on how far Ishikawa reaches, Ito could see herself in 5th place before Paris 2024 Qualifier #5 #4 in early May.

At this point, Ito wishing for Hayata to beat Hirano is useless since Hirano still has the pending points from WS at Asian Games 2022. The problem NOW is Hirano + Kihara + Ishikawa. Yes, the last one will be a big pain in the long run even without points from WTTC 2023.

Edited by zeio - 01/27/2023 at 11:29am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2023 at 9:01am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Not according to script. Hayata will remain the ONLY one to not have defeated Ito in this cycle.

https://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1136960&title=wttc-2023-hayata-ito-hirano-kihara-nagasaki#1136960
Quote The upcoming Zennihon Takkyu 2023 will make the perfect kick-off for Hayata to win the XD, WD and in the WS, potentially get past Harimoto (please lose, Shibata), Hirano, Kato (please lose, Ishikawa) and Ito (please lose, Nagasaki and Kihara) to not only assume her alpha female status, but FORCE it down everyone's throat.
You can only play whoever is in front of you.  But to me, it doesn't matter if they don't meet again.  Hayata is better than Ito imho.  And this is coming from a Mima Ito fan (as well as a Hina Hayata fan).  I don't see how one can objectively look at their results (total results ... not just a single match) since Tokyo and not come to the conclusion that HH is better than Ito.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2023 at 10:20am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Ito is in deep water now. She will drop from 2nd to at least 3rd (Hirano has recovered the point deficit now) and highly likely 4th (provided Kihara beats Suzuki and will rise to 2nd if Hirano loses to Hayata) in player standings. Depending on how far Ishikawa reaches, Ito could see herself in 5th place before Paris 2024 Qualifier #5 in early May.

At this point, Ito wishing for Hayata to beat Hirano is useless since Hirano still has the pending points from WS at Asian Games 2022. The problem NOW is Hirano + Kihara + Ishikawa. Yes, the last one will be a big pain in the long run even without points from WTTC 2023.
I believe that it is Paris Qualifier #4 in early May 2023.  Paris Qualifier #5 is in September 2023, and Paris Qualifier #6 is in December 2023.

So there's still enough tournaments to make up any deficit from the All Japan, but yeah, Mima Ito needs to really step it up if she wants to make the Olympic team.  It's easy to forget that for a lot of these players like Sakura Yokoi, the All Japan is their Olympics since they have no chance of making the Olympics.


Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 01/27/2023 at 11:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2023 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

You can only play whoever is in front of you.  But to me, it doesn't matter if they don't meet again.  Hayata is better than Ito imho.  And this is coming from a Mima Ito fan (as well as a Hina Hayata fan).  I don't see how one can objectively look at their results (total results ... not just a single match) since Tokyo and not come to the conclusion that HH is better than Ito.

I've read the first line (passage 4, specifically) before. As Nextlevel put it in that post, "it's a very different feeling." See for yourself in the latest 5ch comments.

https://mao.5ch.net/test/read.cgi/pingpong/1674715703/498-
Quote 518名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 22:07:03.66ID:ur5ekyYW>>519
もうこれは早田の優勝やろ??

相手が弱杉晋作。

早田に続く選手が全然出てこないな
これではニッポンよわ�£!
This championship is already Hayata's?

Opponents are weak AF

Absolutely no up-and-coming players after Hayata
This Nippon is weak!

519名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 22:16:32.14ID:1l/Y5GnT>>522
>>518
それならどうして早田は8月のTリーグ個人戦で優勝した後は優勝がないの
そんなに強いならその後も優勝しているはずだろ
Then why has Hayata not won after the Nojima Cup last August?
If you were that strong, then you would've won after that

520名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 22:27:22.26ID:8w8nxEin
早田はいまだに伊藤とセットじゃ
ないと見出しにならないんよな
メデ�£ア的には
目下選考レースでトップを走�£てる
と持ち上げつつも伊藤 平野に比べ
圧倒的に記事が少ない
Hayata is still stuck with Ito
It wouldn't be a headline without it
In terms of media
Currently at the top of the selection race
Compared to Ito and Hirano
Incredibly few articles

522名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 22:31:05.77ID:ur5ekyYW>>533
>>519
まあ明日とあさ�£ての早田の試合を見なよ
そうすれば分かると思うよ
See Hayata's matches tomorrow and the day after
I think you'll get it

523名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 22:32:50.81ID:YCcjzBOO>>534
早田は美誠のおまけだから
Because Hayata is Ito's freebie

533名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 23:07:54.48ID:w6OW3fga
>>522
早田は明日で終わりかもよ
Tomorrow could be the end of road for Hayata

534名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 23:09:58.36ID:w6OW3fga
>>523
酷い言い方だね
ダブルスは早田のおかげでうまくい�£てるのに
That's so rude
The doubles is going well thanks to Hayata


Edited by zeio - 01/27/2023 at 12:13pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2023 at 12:24pm
And the comments on Ito's issues.

https://mao.5ch.net/test/read.cgi/pingpong/1674715703/498-
498名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 20:25:48.64ID:hRoDeRqG
伊藤がこの1年で負けすぎてビビる

499名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 20:38:59.16ID:hRoDeRqG
そういえば早田3冠の可能性結構あるな

500名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 20:42:08.27ID:hSCPDvda
伊藤が選考に振り回されてるみたいな風潮あ£たけど
むしろ伊藤が変なとこで負けて選考振り回してる気がする

501名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 20:45:12.84ID:1De/wbak>>510
伊藤は流石にまだ衰える年齢ではないしやはり戦型と用具の問題がでかいのか
もう本人がどうこうできる問題じゃなさそうだしコーチが頑張れよ

502名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 20:45:49.27ID:xvYBbtSj
石川に似てるね。
20前半で高校生に負け始める£て。

503名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 20:47:56.74ID:xGpzBUYg
俺なら五輪で混合金、£体銀、シングルス銅を同時に取£たら完全に燃え尽きるけどな
銅は悔しいと£いてたがそれだけでモチベ持ち直すの£しいだろ

506名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 21:12:36.75ID:+3OkTrCR
美誠はポイントレースで負けてもどうせダブルス要因で£体メンバーに救済される

507名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 21:14:09.71ID:bBKgteOA>>532
別に五輪だけが卓球競技でもあるまいし、
伊藤のレベルだ£たら世界チ£ンプやワールドランキング1位と言う目標を持£ても良いだろ
もし、五輪だけで燃え尽きた(一時的な燃え尽きだ£たらありだけど)としたら元々志が低いのでは
早田は世界一を目指す過程の中で世界チ£ンピオンや五輪での優勝があると言£てるけどな

508名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 21:15:24.13ID:hRoDeRqG
個人競技である限りシングルス優勝が最終地点だからな

510名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 21:30:38.26ID:Y7pzgs6r
>>501
コーチだ£てどうしようもない
日本選手もレベル上が£て、中国選手の伊藤対策を実行するようにな£たら、伊藤は手詰まりにな£た
用具は変えてよくなるなら変えるだろうけど変えないのだから、用具の問題ではないのでは?

532名無しQ(・∀・)ノ゜サァン!!2023/01/27(金) 23:07:44.91ID:IxNd4Bzg
>>507
俺の一番嫌いな言葉「中国を倒して世界一(金メダル)しか考えていない」
サッカーのW杯の目標「ベスト8以上」「新しい景色を見たい」に匹敵する

そういうのは目の前の相手を倒してから言えよと
伊藤が今何を考えているのか知らないが、
まだパリ行きのチケットを手にしていない段階から、
五輪の金メダルが頭にちらついているのなら、明らかにおかしいし、
全日本の優勝ですら考える段階じゃない

何か、地に足が付いていない感じ
星野(馬場)、婆平野のように全日本で何度も優勝する人は違う
男子なら斉藤、水谷

国内の格下にころ£と負けていて、中国を倒して金メダルとか、ありえない

ついでに言うと、自分を倒した相手を祝福する心の余£もない
ふてくされた態度を取るのは卓球あるあるかもしれないが、
プロの歴史が長いテニスでは考えられないこと
The phrase I hate the most is "I'm only thinking about defeating China and becoming the world #1 (gold medal)."
Comparable to the soccer World Cup goal of "beyond the best 8" and "want to see a new scenery"

Say that after defeating the opponent in front of you
I don't know what Ito is thinking now,
Since she had not yet obtained a ticket to Paris,
If the Olympic gold medal is flickering in your head, it's obviously funny,
Not even at the stage of thinking about winning the All-Japan Championship.

It feels like her feet aren't on the ground
People like Hoshino (Baba) and Auntie Hirano who win multiple times at All-Japan are different.
Saito and Mizutani for men's

It is impossible to defeat China and win a gold medal if you lose to the domestic low-ranked players.

By the way, not even having the heart to congratulate the person who defeated you.
It may be table tennis that takes a defiant attitude, but
unthinkable in tennis with a long professional history
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2023 at 12:42pm
Note that I'm speaking specifically of the time window after the Tokyo Olympics.  Clearly, Mima Ito's career is far superior to Hina Hayata's.  Mima's place in history is not at risk.  She's the best female Japanese player in recent history which includes Ai Fukuhara.  But for the purposes of who is the best female Japanese player for the time window of *this* Olympic cycle I believe that belongs to Hayata .... at least so far.  I believe playing levels are dynamic so things can change, but I think Hayata deserves credit for her consistently good results thus far.  

As far as the opinions of 5ch users, it might be interesting to see what they are saying, but I don't put any stock in it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 1:16am
A quick reply before the MD/WD F.

Time window after Tokyo 2020? Has that NOT been the focus of this thread?

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1126297
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1126329
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1136482
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1136860

It's unfortunate but "best female Japanese player in recent history which includes Ai Fukuhara" is totally out of Hayata's reach. Before she self-destructed, Fukuhara was the most influential Japanese player. Now, it's Ishikawa by income. Ito and Hirano are way more recognized than Hayata, which is supported by the TV rating. Except for Fukuhara, all of the above are current.

The fact remains that Hayata is merely the leading player in points. Those points are meaningless until she equals Hirano's and Ito's achievements next year. Yet, beating the former best is part of the process. Hirano did that. Ito did that. Hayata has yet to do that. Remember why I stressed that whoever is top 3 doesn't matter when the ultimate goal is overcoming China.

Edited by zeio - 01/28/2023 at 1:23am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 6:52am
Although the points themselves have little meaning, you need the points to get to Paris. Actually,  you need to be one of the top 2 to play singles against China. Barring injury, her consistently good performance gives her confidence that she'll be one of those 2.  The other important thing is that it looks like the JTTA is using the points for more than just Paris. Top 5 was used for WTTC 2023. I'm not sure if the qualifications for the Asian Championship later this year has been decided but conceivably JTTA could use the points again. Unfortunately, WTT has very little in terms of high level events so we don't get to see many clashes with the top Chinese. In the absence of that, these Paris trials become a barometer for how well or poorly the players are playing. You want your best player playing their best to have any shot at China. 

Edit:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The fact remains that Hayata is merely the leading player in points. Those points are meaningless until she equals Hirano's and Ito's achievements next year. Yet, beating the former best is part of the process. Hirano did that. Ito did that. Hayata has yet to do that. Remember why I stressed that whoever is top 3 doesn't matter when the ultimate goal is overcoming China.

I would agree that it would be a problem if Hayata had never beaten Ito, but she did beat her at the SF of the 2020 All Japan on the way to winning the Championship.  Granted, that was pre-Tokyo, but I don't think there's a psychological barrier to not being able to oust the previous best as she has already done this.  Whether or not they meet is outside of Hayata's control.  But what she can control is beat a surging Miwa Harimoto and take revenge on Hirano by beating her 4-0.  


Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 01/28/2023 at 9:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 11:49am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The fact remains that Hayata is merely the leading player in points. Those points are meaningless until she equals Hirano's and Ito's achievements next year. Yet, beating the former best is part of the process. Hirano did that. Ito did that. Hayata has yet to do that. Remember why I stressed that whoever is top 3 doesn't matter when the ultimate goal is overcoming China.

I would agree that it would be a problem if Hayata had never beaten Ito, but she did beat her at the SF of the 2020 All Japan on the way to winning the Championship.  Granted, that was pre-Tokyo, but I don't think there's a psychological barrier to not being able to oust the previous best as she has already done this.  Whether or not they meet is outside of Hayata's control.  But what she can control is beat a surging Miwa Harimoto and take revenge on Hirano by beating her 4-0.  

Agreed, I don't conflate the need for Hayata to get more international medals with supposed inability to beat Ito.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 11:56am
Again, Hayata had the chance at Zennoh Cup Fukuoka.

Other than Lion Cup when everyone was on equal footing, to this date, Hayata still has not displayed the potential to win on-demand with no margin for error. Ito did at Zennoh Cup Fukuoka. Hirano did at Zennoh Cup Funabashi. We simply have no idea how Hayata would perform under extreme pressure to succeed.

https://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=92138&PID=1130638&title=european-championships-2022-8-1321#1130638
Quote LGL: The players I select are often not based on their upper limit. The upper limit is when they perform the best. I look for their lower limit. Anyone can win when you are at your best, right? It is your lower limit, when you are in a bad state, when your mental state is not good, is there a "bottom line" for your lower limit?
Host: Can also win at the lower limit
LGL: Yes, your lower limit...At my worst, I can also play at 70%. Then, I will weigh whether your 70% can compete with the opponents. You can win when above 90% or 100%, then, is 70% feasible, and for some if 70% is not guaranteed, 50%, 40%, then your...This is a fundamental thing
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 12:16pm
Here is a part of a comment from Hayata-dedicated Tieba that pretty much sums up the general perception of Hayata in China, despite her results in this cycle.

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/8208988281
Quote 3,早田希娜在日乒内战固然稳定,但对战外协会顶级选手特别是对战国乒竞争力不高。早田希娜球商不高以及两面反胶的传统打法,可以毫不夸张的说早田希娜就是石川佳纯的翻版,对国乒来说简直就是送分童子,国乒非常乐意早田希娜上巴黎奥运会。早田希娜当然完全有能力凭借奥运选考积分获得巴黎奥运单打£表资格,但如果日乒协故意设局让其他人取£伊藤美诚上巴黎奥运,国乒的LGL估计做梦都要笑醒!

3. Although Hayata is stable in the selection race, she is not very competitive against top players from foreign associations, especially against the CNT. Given Hayata's low TT quotient and the typical playstyle of double-inverted, it is not an exaggeration to say that Hayata is a replica of Ishikawa. To the CNT, she's simply a cannon fodder. The CNT is more than happy to see her qualify for Paris 2024. Of course, Hayata is fully capable of qualifying for the Olympic singles with the Olympic selection points, but if the JTTA deliberately sets up a scenario to let someone else replace Ito for the Paris Olympics, then LGL will probably wake up from his dreams!
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Here is a part of a comment from Hayata-dedicated Tieba that pretty much sums up the general perception of Hayata in China, despite her results in this cycle.

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/8208988281
Quote 3,早田希娜在日乒内战固然稳定,但对战外协会顶级选手特别是对战国乒竞争力不高。早田希娜球商不高以及两面反胶的传统打法,可以毫不夸张的说早田希娜就是石川佳纯的翻版,对国乒来说简直就是送分童子,国乒非常乐意早田希娜上巴黎奥运会。早田希娜当然完全有能力凭借奥运选考积分获得巴黎奥运单打�£表资格,但如果日乒协故意设局让其他人取�£伊藤美诚上巴黎奥运,国乒的LGL估计做梦都要笑醒!

3. Although Hayata is stable in the selection race, she is not very competitive against top players from foreign associations, especially against the CNT. Given Hayata's low TT quotient and the typical playstyle of double-inverted, it is not an exaggeration to say that Hayata is a replica of Ishikawa. To the CNT, she's simply a cannon fodder. The CNT is more than happy to see her qualify for Paris 2024. Of course, Hayata is fully capable of qualifying for the Olympic singles with the Olympic selection points, but if the JTTA deliberately sets up a scenario to let someone else replace Ito for the Paris Olympics, then LGL will probably wake up from his dreams!
If that's the prevailing opinion of Tieba users then that's fine.  They're entitled to their opinion as am I.  I can't imagine LGL or Ma Lin thinking HH is just cannon fodder, but if I'm wrong, then great.  

I don't know what the future holds for Hina Hayata.  I can only be hopeful for great things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 1:26pm
The thing that doesn't ring true to me is  "the typical playstyle of double-inverted." Are the CNT afraid of Batra? No. I don't think they are afraid of Ito either, they have now done their homework.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Here is a part of a comment from Hayata-dedicated Tieba that pretty much sums up the general perception of Hayata in China, despite her results in this cycle.

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/8208988281
Quote 3,早田希娜在日乒内战固然稳定,但对战外协会顶级选手特别是对战国乒竞争力不高。早田希娜球商不高以及两面反胶的传统打法,可以毫不夸张的说早田希娜就是石川佳纯的翻版,对国乒来说简直就是送分童子,国乒非常乐意早田希娜上巴黎奥运会。早田希娜当然完全有能力凭借奥运选考积分获得巴黎奥运单打�£表资格,但如果日乒协故意设局让其他人取�£伊藤美诚上巴黎奥运,国乒的LGL估计做梦都要笑醒!

3. Although Hayata is stable in the selection race, she is not very competitive against top players from foreign associations, especially against the CNT. Given Hayata's low TT quotient and the typical playstyle of double-inverted, it is not an exaggeration to say that Hayata is a replica of Ishikawa. To the CNT, she's simply a cannon fodder. The CNT is more than happy to see her qualify for Paris 2024. Of course, Hayata is fully capable of qualifying for the Olympic singles with the Olympic selection points, but if the JTTA deliberately sets up a scenario to let someone else replace Ito for the Paris Olympics, then LGL will probably wake up from his dreams!
If that's the prevailing opinion of Tieba users then that's fine.  They're entitled to their opinion as am I.  I can't imagine LGL or Ma Lin thinking HH is just cannon fodder, but if I'm wrong, then great.  

I don't know what the future holds for Hina Hayata.  I can only be hopeful for great things.

Again, agreed.  Absence of good evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 3:14pm
It is not about opinion (my opinion for Hayata and against Ishikawa didn't do jack), but reality. The harsh reality is that the overall sentiment in China towards Hayata is still far from that towards Hirano and Ito during the Tokyo 2020 cycle. Li Sun said they were living in fear every day of those 5 years. Li Sun is also the one who said that Hayata has the most potential back at ATTC 2017. It's been 6 years since then.

https://2020.sina.com.cn/2021-08-05/doc-ikqciyzk9768854.shtml
https://news.sina.com.cn/c/2021-08-05/doc-ikqcfncc1171906.shtml
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/tokyo-2020-2020-7-24-8-9.23698/post-353646
Quote   日本是值得尊敬的对手不管是伊藤石川还是平野,我觉得她们不断向中国发起挑战,有不断改变。伊藤在这么短的时间里,从单打到团体战术进行了很大的改变,包括平野也比过去有了很大的进步,包括对球的理�£和场上的控制。我们年轻人为什么进步这么快和我们的对手有很大的关系。我们每天都在琢�£�这个,而且我们每天都在担惊首怕。过去五年我们每天都在惊恐中过来的,真的到了搏命的时候。所以我们年轻人做的不错。”


It is easy to lose sight here. Look at Fukuhara's, Ishikawa's, and Ito's Olympic singles records:
Fukuhara's best finish was 4th place at Rio 2016 at ~27.7;
Ishikawa's best finish was 4th place at London 2012 at ~19.4;
Ito's best finish was bronze medal at Tokyo 2020 at ~20.8 (would likely have been ~19.8).

Hirano, Hayata and Ito (in order of birthday) will be ~24.3, ~24.1 and ~23.8. If Hayata is to win at least bronze in WS and gold in XD (yes, minimum goal for her to be equal in status), Paris 2024 will be the best and probably the ONLY time. There will be no room for error. No one can tell what will happen with Harimoto in the mix for Los Angeles 2028.

Fukuhara
Athens 2004 R16 1-4 Kim Kyungah
Beijing 2008 R16 1-4 Zhang Yining
London 2012 QF 0-4 Ding Ning
Rio 2016 SF 0-4 Li Xiaoxia, bronze 1-4 Kim Song I

Ishikawa
London 2012 SF 1-4 Li Xiaoxia, bronze 0-4 Feng Tianwei
Rio 2016 R32 2-0 -> 3-4 Kim Song I
Tokyo 2020 QF 1-4 Yu Mengyu

Ito
Tokyo 2020 SF 0-4 Sun Yingsha, bronze 4-1 Yu Mengyu

Getting a bronze in WTTC and gold in World Cup (yes, it is still on the back-burner) will be even more difficult. Just look at Ito's record.

Fukuhara
(Will look up later)

Ishikawa
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1126297&title=wttc-2023-hayata-ito-hirano-kihara-nagasaki#1126297

Hirano
WTTC 2015 R32 0-4 Ding Ning
World Cup 2016 F 4-0 Cheng I-Ching
WTTC 2017 SF 1-4 Ding Ning
World Cup 2017 SF 0-4 Liu Shiwen, bronze 2-4 Cheng I-Ching
World Cup 2018 QF 1-4 Ishikawa
WTTC 2019 QF 1-4 Ding Ning
World Cup 2019 R16 3-2 -> 3-4 Lily Zhang
WTTC 2021 R16 3-2 -> 3-4 Chen Meng

Hayata
WTTC 2021 R16 2-4 Wang Yidi

Ito
WTTC 2015 QF 2-4 Li Xiaoxia
World Cup 2016 QF 1-4 Hirano
WTTC 2017 R16 2-4 Zhu Yuling
WTTC 2019 R32 1-4 Sun Yingsha
World Cup 2020 SF 2-4 Sun Yingsha, bronze 4-0 Han Ying
WTTC 2021 QF 1-4 Wang Yidi

Edited by zeio - 01/28/2023 at 3:27pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

It is not about opinion (my opinion for Hayata and against Ishikawa didn't do jack), but reality. The harsh reality is that the overall sentiment in China towards Hayata is still far from that towards Hirano and Ito during the Tokyo 2020 cycle. Li Sun said they were living in fear every day of those 5 years. Li Sun is also the one who said that Hayata has the most potential back at ATTC 2017. It's been 6 years since then.

https://2020.sina.com.cn/2021-08-05/doc-ikqciyzk9768854.shtml
https://news.sina.com.cn/c/2021-08-05/doc-ikqcfncc1171906.shtml
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/tokyo-2020-2020-7-24-8-9.23698/post-353646
Quote   日本是值得尊敬的对手不管是伊藤石川还是平野,我觉得她们不断向中国发起挑战,有不断改变。伊藤在这么短的时间里,从单打到团体战术进行了很大的改变,包括平野也比过去有了很大的进步,包括对球的理�£和场上的控制。我们年轻人为什么进步这么快和我们的对手有很大的关系。我们每天都在琢�£�这个,而且我们每天都在担惊首怕。过去五年我们每天都在惊恐中过来的,真的到了搏命的时候。所以我们年轻人做的不错。”


It is easy to lose sight here. Look at Fukuhara's, Ishikawa's, and Ito's Olympic singles records:
Fukuhara's best finish was 4th place at Rio 2016 at ~27.7;
Ishikawa's best finish was 4th place at London 2012 at ~19.4;
Ito's best finish was bronze medal at Tokyo 2020 at ~20.8 (would likely have been ~19.8).

Hirano, Hayata and Ito (in order of birthday) will be ~24.3, ~24.1 and ~23.8. If Hayata is to win at least bronze in WS and gold in XD (yes, minimum goal for her to be equal in status), Paris 2024 will be the best and probably the ONLY time. There will be no room for error. No one can tell what will happen with Harimoto in the mix for Los Angeles 2028.

Fukuhara
Athens 2004 R16 1-4 Kim Kyungah
Beijing 2008 R16 1-4 Zhang Yining
London 2012 QF 0-4 Ding Ning
Rio 2016 SF 0-4 Li Xiaoxia, bronze 1-4 Kim Song I

Ishikawa
London 2012 SF 1-4 Li Xiaoxia, bronze 0-4 Feng Tianwei
Rio 2016 R32 2-0 -> 3-4 Kim Song I
Tokyo 2020 QF 1-4 Yu Mengyu

Ito
Tokyo 2020 SF 0-4 Sun Yingsha, bronze 4-1 Yu Mengyu

Getting a bronze in WTTC and gold in World Cup (yes, it is still on the back-burner) will be even more difficult. Just look at Ito's record.

Fukuhara
(Will look up later)

Ishikawa
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91479&PID=1126297&title=wttc-2023-hayata-ito-hirano-kihara-nagasaki#1126297

Hirano
WTTC 2015 R32 0-4 Ding Ning
World Cup 2016 F 4-0 Cheng I-Ching
WTTC 2017 SF 1-4 Ding Ning
World Cup 2017 SF 0-4 Liu Shiwen, bronze 2-4 Cheng I-Ching
World Cup 2018 QF 1-4 Ishikawa
WTTC 2019 QF 1-4 Ding Ning
World Cup 2019 R16 3-2 -> 3-4 Lily Zhang
WTTC 2021 R16 3-2 -> 3-4 Chen Meng

Hayata
WTTC 2021 R16 2-4 Wang Yidi

Ito
WTTC 2015 QF 2-4 Li Xiaoxia
World Cup 2016 QF 1-4 Hirano
WTTC 2017 R16 2-4 Zhu Yuling
WTTC 2019 R32 1-4 Sun Yingsha
World Cup 2020 SF 2-4 Sun Yingsha, bronze 4-0 Han Ying
WTTC 2021 QF 1-4 Wang Yidi

No one here is arguing over what people's results are.  What you sre doing is inferring things from those results and that is your opinion.    The sentiment in China towards Hayata is just another opinion.  That it exists is a fact but says nothing about what will happen when Hayata plays a CNT member or what she has to do to beat more CNT players.

Wherher Hayata can beat Ito or not and its implications on her playing level are an opinion.  That she has not beaten Ito is a fact, but what it means given they have hardly met is open to debate. 

Is anything I have written controversial?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2023 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

The thing that doesn't ring true to me is  "the typical playstyle of double-inverted." Are the CNT afraid of Batra? No. I don't think they are afraid of Ito either, they have now done their homework.

Nice of you to mention Batra. Look up her recent record against QTY, CXT and Hayata. Look up Yuan Jia Nan's recent record against WMY. Look up Ni Xia Lian's recent record against WYD.

Other than Doo Hoi Kem and Szocs, they are the ONLY ones to have defeated the core CNT members in this cycle.

Yes, the CNT is STILL more wary of Ito and Batra than Hayata.

Edited by zeio - 01/29/2023 at 5:31am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2023 at 12:37am
No one has beaten the core CNT in any meaningful event yet, including the ones they are wary of.  All of this though doesnt mean that Hayata not beating Ito should take on special significance. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2023 at 4:26am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

No one here is arguing over what people's results are.  What you sre doing is inferring things from those results and that is your opinion.    The sentiment in China towards Hayata is just another opinion.  That it exists is a fact but says nothing about what will happen when Hayata plays a CNT member or what she has to do to beat more CNT players.
Wherher Hayata can beat Ito or not and its implications on her playing level are an opinion.  That she has not beaten Ito is a fact, but what it means given they have hardly met is open to debate.
Is anything I have written controversial?

Interesting you bring up the term controversial.

Let's try the sprinting analogy, namely the 10-second barrier. Getting past the QF at WTTC (especially before 7 to 5 players per association/6 for host starting with WTTC 2015) and Olympics (especially before 3 to 2 players per NOC starting with London 2012) were like running sub-10 to reach the final. How many have done that? Men? Women?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_metres_at_the_Olympics#Race
Quote In the 2020 Olympics, Chinese sprinter Su Bingtian ran 9.83 in his semi-final heat and became the first athlete without African heritage to reach the final since 1980 within the span of 40 years, setting an unofficial fastest 60 metres split record en route. 9.83 is also the second fastest semi-final time and made him the fifth fastest man in the history of 100 metres at the Olympics behind Usain Bolt, Yohan Blake, Justin Gatlin and Marcel Jacobs.

Most commentators attribute this statistical discrepancy to genetic rather than to cultural factors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52jgttTNGuM&lc=UgwnLsaNcm-iN16b76l4AaABAg
Quote In other words, Genetics is Not a "prospective" concept, but a "RETROACTIVE" concept. What does it mean? You cannot predict if one can do it from the beginning; it is ONLY AFTER the person/group does it that the person/group ALWAYS ALREADY posesse the neccessary genetic potential to do it from the very get go. Before something is performed, people will find all kinds of reasons to explain why it Cannot be done; After something is performed, people will find all kinds of reasons to expalin why it Must have happened.)


In women's singles, it's gotten to the point that even being Asian is not enough, you have to be Chinese. Controversial now?

But opposite to the second quote, what I'm attempting here is to view it "prospectively". I've been expecting something, a sequence of events, to unfold and I'm trying to make sense why it hasn't happened yet.

Hirano is the only one to have won by beating DN, ZYL and CM at ATTC 2017, under the bo5 system, after decades. Note the A. Since Boros at WTTC 2003 (beating WTTC 1993 bronze medalist Badescu), Hirano is the only one to have reached the SF at WTTC 2017, and without running into China until SF for both of them. The last player to beat a CNT player to reach the SF was Hyun Jung-hwa at WTTC 1993, 30 years ago.

For the Olympics, the last time a mishap happened for China, not just MS but also WS, was back at Athens 2004, almost 20 years ago. Check it out for those interested.

Whatever the case, those didn't happen out of the blue. Before that, Hirano beat Ito in SF of Zennihon Takkyu 2016, before losing to Ishikawa. She beat Samara (1st win) in R16, Ito, FTW (1st win), CIC (1st win) at World Cup 2016 and then Ishikawa (1st win) to win Zennihon Takkyu 2017.

Off the top of my head, other than the overseas legion, Ito is the only one since Boros and Fukuhara to have done the above at various Opens, namely Japan Open 2018, Swedish Open 2018, China Open 2019, Swedish Open 2019, and Austrian Open 2019. But before all that, there was the Czech Open 2017, where Ito beat Ishikawa in the final (1st win). Then, at Zennihon Takkyu 2018, she beat Ishikawa again in SF (1st domestic win) and then Hirano.

So far, Hayata has only done it once by beating LSW at Portugal Open 2019 and other non-core CNT members at various Challenge events in 2019. Then, at Zennihon Takkyu 2020, she beat Ito in SF and then Ishikawa. See the pattern? COVID-19 is a factor but it is long overdue for Hayata to achieve a similar feat again if she is "the one" next in line and getting past Ito should and would've been the "omen", but this "sequence" hasn't happened yet (all the more reason when international competitions have been disrupted).

For others, Shibata has done it once beating ZYL to reach SF at China Open 2018. Nagasaki has done it twice beating ZYL, both in R32, at Japan Open 2019 and Swedish Open 2019. They were onto something...but then the next "sequence" never occurred, yet ironically, both have beaten Ito in this cycle. Will Kihara be the next to fall victim here?
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2023 at 4:53am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

No one has beaten the core CNT in any meaningful event yet, including the ones they are wary of.  All of this though doesnt mean that Hayata not beating Ito should take on special significance.

Then again, why do we keep hailing Hayata as Japan's No. 1, as if it has some sort of "special significance"?

Togami beat Shinozuka and Harimoto, both of whom had way better international stats against CNT AND non-CNT players in 2022. Should we hail him as Japan's No. 1 now? Beating Shinozuka and Harimoto, however, is a prerequisite, a part of the process, a sequence that leads to the next, as it builds up your confidence.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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