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Benefits of Training

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    Posted: 08/28/2022 at 6:49pm
Recently I attended a 5 day training camp run by a well respected coach.  A few weeks later I entered my first tournament in quite a while.  I was excited for the chance to put that valuable training to use.  I lost 75 rating points and played at a level even lower than that.

I am now even more excited.  I estimate that if I train really hard I can drop my rating enough to have a chance at winning the U1500 event at the US Open later this year.  Who knew hard work and focused training could open up such opportunities


Mark - Currently 1826,  Very soon (if not already processed) to be 1750.  Aiming for 1499 by end of Oct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2022 at 6:57pm
Bit of a lofty goal, but I have full confidence in you! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2022 at 7:31pm
lol gotta join the dark side for some good ole sandbagging!

Edited by blahness - 08/28/2022 at 7:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2022 at 8:49pm
I think I understand the dark feel of not being rewarded after training despite the tongue in cheek tone. Training and playing tournaments have ups and lows that have value if analyzed over a year or so. Since you can do whatever you want with your time as a retired person who can move around the states as it pleases, why don't you put together a program with as much training and rated tournaments that your body can reasonably take and see what happens? 

If I may suggest a strategy, I would recommend focusing on all round play supported by a strong backhand and a sneaky short game based on short underspin serves with the occasional long fast serve of course. Also pushing is way under-rated and people will loop like there is no tomorrow when they get bored: pushing deep waiting for a loop to punish off the bounce because it lands too close to the net sounds also like a wise approach for us oldies who want to last.

Do you have videos of your play in that last tourney?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2022 at 9:00pm
Most great older players I played rely on extremely sneaky serves (I personally hate the near unreadable heavy underspin/no spin serves, eat them for breakfast every time I play them) with great placement (extremely fast long deep or extremely short to various corners or the elbow) and then punish the returns with some unorthodox attack to some weird af placement (they just love the down the line fake outs). But a lot of them are penholders with pips on the reverse side - i don't think the shakehand game is anywhere as tricky - but really you're only limited by your imagination lol... 

I don't think playing the power game (like what most coaches love to teach) against youngsters (like myself) works much... we've seen it all too often and will give everything back with interest especially when going topspin vs topspin. Most successful high level older folk play like magicians to survive in today's plastic ball world which rewards power play.


Edited by blahness - 08/28/2022 at 9:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2022 at 9:53pm
Even if a coach is well meaning, if the advice isn't appropriate for the student it can totally ruin a player's game.  I once took lessons with a very famous player/coach for 6 months and it was 100% completely useless.  In fact, I dropped about 300 rating points and stayed at that level trying my best to do what they said.  It was not fun.   I had a series of important tournaments coming up and I had to cut ties with the coach and ignore completely what they told me.  Fortunately after a month or so, I got my old level back. 

Kids can play 6 hours a day and they will just figure things out on their own with minimal guidance.  Adults have to be very careful listening to a coach and then take in what works for them and ignore what doesn't.  Also, just because a coach is famous, doesn't mean what they say will help your game. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Love_my_dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2022 at 10:26am
Learning by just watching and imitating how Ma Long plays. No coach can have better strokes than Ma Long.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2022 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Love_my_dog Love_my_dog wrote:

Learning by just watching and imitating how Ma Long plays. No coach can have better strokes than Ma Long.

Part of the point of the earlier discussion is that for older players, playing strokes like Ma Long is often the worst style to play. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Love_my_dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2022 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by Love_my_dog Love_my_dog wrote:

Learning by just watching and imitating how Ma Long plays. No coach can have better strokes than Ma Long.

Part of the point of the earlier discussion is that for older players, playing strokes like Ma Long is often the worst style to play. 

Good point. Maybe we can learn Ma Long's techniques, service, service-return, etc. if not his strokes.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Love_my_dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2022 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Most great older players I played rely on extremely sneaky serves (I personally hate the near unreadable heavy underspin/no spin serves, eat them for breakfast every time I play them) with great placement (extremely fast long deep or extremely short to various corners or the elbow) and then punish the returns with some unorthodox attack to some weird af placement (they just love the down the line fake outs). But a lot of them are penholders with pips on the reverse side - i don't think the shakehand game is anywhere as tricky - but really you're only limited by your imagination lol... 

I don't think playing the power game (like what most coaches love to teach) against youngsters (like myself) works much... we've seen it all too often and will give everything back with interest especially when going topspin vs topspin. Most successful high level older folk play like magicians to survive in today's plastic ball world which rewards power play.
In China, there are a lot of so-called "iron-pusher" old players who always push instead of attack and often win the match. They are experienced (play almost every day for 3 hours) and have very good control of the ball, i.e., very good touch.
Control is very important. Taking receiving as an example, receiving is about reading the spin right and then reacting appropriately. If a flat ball is correctly read but the accordingly proper shot lacks, the point can still be lost.
Old players must have better control of the ball so as not to be killed easily by the opponent, and then pounce on the chance to make a killer ball.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Love_my_dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2022 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Recently I attended a 5 day training camp run by a well respected coach.  A few weeks later I entered my first tournament in quite a while.  I was excited for the chance to put that valuable training to use.  I lost 75 rating points and played at a level even lower than that.

I am now even more excited.  I estimate that if I train really hard I can drop my rating enough to have a chance at winning the U1500 event at the US Open later this year.  Who knew hard work and focused training could open up such opportunities


Mark - Currently 1826,  Very soon (if not already processed) to be 1750.  Aiming for 1499 by end of Oct.

Before going to the camp, what was your goal? from 1826 to 2000? or improving on specific techniques?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2022 at 10:34pm
My goal at the camp was to improve my technique mainly by getting a lot more focused training time.  In five days I got in 25 hrs of focused training mixed between stroke technique, footwoork, and simulated point scenarios.  That's probably what I get in 5 or 6 weeks of regular club play.   Each day we also played actual games for 30 to 45 min each day at the end of the session.  There were 2 20 min personalized training sessions.  I focused on returning short serves (particularly to wide Fh) and responding to faster attacks (ie handling a shot that is faster and has more spin than any of several previous balls).   I tend to freeze and just block weakly on such shots even though they are not kills, but rather just a little faster.  I also got some advice on a significant change to my Fh loop stroke based on the coach just watching me do drills with various players.

Mark


Edited by mjamja - 08/29/2022 at 10:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2022 at 7:51am
I am now even more excited.  I estimate that if I train really hard I can drop my rating enough to have a chance at winning the U1500 event at the US Open later this year.  Who knew hard work and focused training could open up such opportunities

Hi,

I have a much different perspective.  You are on a path of high achievement, for if you continue your current trends in tournament play, you will be perfectly positioned for the M.I.P. Award.  That is, Most Improved Player!  That is a prestigious award in many sports!

Ok, so now you suck, I got that.  But that status and inclination is the path to the brighter future!  At some point, the only direction must be up!

In some important and impressive way, both you and Sally Moyland are the same; both of you have huge potential and, for you, your potential is huger and huger per tournament.

After this fall hits rock bottom, you are in for the bounce of your life!  I can visualize this now, at tournament after tournament, the comments made: "Look, look over there, that's Mjamja bouncing."

Always trying to help.

Thanks.
Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2022 at 7:57am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

I am now even more excited.  I estimate that if I train really hard I can drop my rating enough to have a chance at winning the U1500 event at the US Open later this year.  Who knew hard work and focused training could open up such opportunities

Hi,

I have a much different perspective.  You are on a path of high achievement, for if you continue your current trends in tournament play, you will be perfectly positioned for the M.I.P. Award.  That is, Most Improved Player!  That is a prestigious award in many sports!

Ok, so now you suck, I got that.  But that status and inclination is the path to the brighter future!  At some point, the only direction must be up!

In some important and impressive way, both you and Sally Moyland are the same; both of you have huge potential and, for you, your potential is huger and huger per tournament.

After this fall hits rock bottom, you are in for the bounce of your life!  I can visualize this now, at tournament after tournament, the comments made: "Look, look over there, that's Mjamja bouncing."

Always trying to help.

Thanks.
Mjamja will be the fast rising senior dreaded by juniors LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2022 at 10:38am
Donn wrote
After this fall hits rock bottom, you are in for the bounce of your life!  I can visualize this now, at tournament after tournament, the comments made: "Look, look over there, that's Mjamja bouncing."


I fear (and expect) that any bounce back will be more of a dead cat bounce than a super ball bounce.

Mark - Who just wants PETA to know he never actually bounced a dead cat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2022 at 12:08pm
So, so much more could be said (as anyone familiar with me would agree.)

The initial expression of the thread was founded upon one tournament.  If I may, may I say: One swallow does not a summer make.  I know we are moving into the fall season, so my analogies are more than a bit mis-scheduled, but it's all I got.  [Well, I do have: "Spring forward, fall back" which, ironically, seems to match your current state of affairs on this matter of the thread.]  [Actually, I do have Steinbeck's "Winter of Our Discontent" which is immaculately applicable here!  We are making progress, I think.  I love being immaculate.] 

I've got this too: The current U.S. dietary guidelines recommends a saturated fat daily caloric intake of no more than 10% of total calorie intake.  I'm at 70%.  Is this relevant?  I dunno.  Maybe it means I'll miss observing your bounce.  But please remember that I'll be with you in spirit, but perhaps only in spirit.  

Many will be rooting for you, that's for sure.  Likely not to the degree in which they will dump a match to you but, as I said, you won't need any help from them once your backhand straightens out.

Thanks.
Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2022 at 11:50am
I once took lessons with a very famous player/coach for 6 months and it was 100% completely useless.

As a point of clarification and specification, you received instruction during this time not from a table tennis coach, but from a table tennis player that provides table tennis instruction for money.

My strongest suggestion is to only receive table tennis instruction from a table tennis coach.

Thanks.
Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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