Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  Help Desk Help Desk  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - long serves vs short serves
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

long serves vs short serves

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5112
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: long serves vs short serves
    Posted: 11/02/2022 at 11:53pm
Has anyone tried to do like a statistical analysis of modern pro TT in terms of short serves vs long serves. 

I've been noticing a far more even distribution between short and long serves these days (almost 50-50?), as compared to the speed glue era where you had almost exclusively short serves from almost all players, maybe even like 80-90%. 

Also interested to hear about what ppl use in their own games and the distribution, has it changed over the years?


Edited by blahness - 11/02/2022 at 11:54pm
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5112
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2022 at 12:15am
Personally, I've been starting to even favour fast long serves over short serves in general at my level, reasons being that:

1) There's much less options and angles available for the opponent when you serve fast and long as compared to short. A long serve can only be returned long (if they attempt to return it short it's gonna sit up high unless they have some Waldner touch), and either they push it (which results in a slow attackable ball), or they loop it (in which case you have to defend well). Whereas for a short serve, the receive can be anywhere from a short push to fast long pushes to flicks to chiquitas to sideswipes, and theres a lot of ultra wide angles that can be used against you. 

2) Long fast heavy sidetopspin serves just can't be pushed unlike short sidetopspin. This is very useful in forcing a topspin to topspin rally if you know you're favoured in that department.

3) it's the perfect antidote to flick/chiquita happy ppl, because the long serves test their footwork and response times so they can't attack strongly from the get go. If they step in too early they're gonna be super out of position against the long serves.

4) Forcing a loop from the opponent can be very beneficial if you know their patterns well, as you can anticipate and then angle the block from their loop well. It also saves a lot of energy as you don't need to loop yourself. 

5) there's simply less response time available for the opponent, if they're slow you can even ace them sometimes. It's almost impossible to ace someone with a short serve (misreading spin doesn't count)

6) the effect of spin on the rubber is more pronounced at higher speeds, there's more energy on the ball which induces more direct errors from the opponents if they read it wrong. With short serves usually a misread causes a pop up which you still have to kill (and you still have the opportunity to miss or they can block your kill shot)

Of course if the opponent takes a step back due to the long serves, short serves become killer once more especially when they have to reach for the shot due to being out of position. 

But in general, I think unless the opponent is reading the serves perfectly and punishing the long serves effectively, there's not a lot of reasons that short serves are better than fast long serves

-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
vanjr View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 08/19/2004
Location: Corpus Christi
Status: Offline
Points: 1299
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2022 at 9:21am
People still do short serves?
Back to Top
kakapo View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/24/2013
Location: Mordor
Status: Offline
Points: 3169
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2022 at 9:35am
Basically, all services which bounce at least twice on the table can be called short services.
To me +/-70% of the pro services are "short" services with the second bounce landing +/-10-5 cm before the end of the table or just behind.
Very short services are often really easy to return for high level players and often, the server loses his initiative and gets a chiquita difficult to deal with. 
Nearly all male pro players are able to make chiquitas nowadays, the only very short services which is often quite effective is on the FH side of the receiver, near the side line, with a sharp underspin or YG services with lateral topspin.
For very long services, often, pro players use them once in a game because it is really risky...or you have a service like He Zhiwen...



Edited by kakapo - 11/03/2022 at 9:36am
Matador ST, Skyline 2 National 35° 2,15mm, Superstop 1,9mm
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5112
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2022 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

People still do short serves?

Lol does everyone serve long around you?
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
vanjr View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 08/19/2004
Location: Corpus Christi
Status: Offline
Points: 1299
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2022 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

People still do short serves?

Lol does everyone serve long around you?

Yes. (I can't get the guy coaching me to realize this-they serve long to my BH where I have LP. Even flipping my blade is not much help).
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5112
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2022 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

People still do short serves?

Lol does everyone serve long around you?

Yes. (I can't get the guy coaching me to realize this-they serve long to my BH where I have LP. Even flipping my blade is not much help).

That's what I would do too against any pips, fast long serves all day long because there's no loop to be afraid of...
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14098
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2022 at 6:01pm
The bigger balls don't spin as much which has pros and cons.  But if you let the opponent open with the smaller balls, controlling and tracking the spin was much harder.  So it's logical to serve more long serves these days since letting the opponent open doesn't let them win the point outright.  The first loop isn't as great a weapon as it used to be, unless of course, it comes of a high ball.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5112
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2022 at 1:26am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

Basically, all services which bounce at least twice on the table can be called short services.
To me +/-70% of the pro services are "short" services with the second bounce landing +/-10-5 cm before the end of the table or just behind.
Very short services are often really easy to return for high level players and often, the server loses his initiative and gets a chiquita difficult to deal with. 
Nearly all male pro players are able to make chiquitas nowadays, the only very short services which is often quite effective is on the FH side of the receiver, near the side line, with a sharp underspin or YG services with lateral topspin.
For very long services, often, pro players use them once in a game because it is really risky...or you have a service like He Zhiwen...


I've been watching quite some pro matches and I think they use long serves a lot these days too....definitely not just once in a game.
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5112
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2022 at 1:35am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The bigger balls don't spin as much which has pros and cons.  But if you let the opponent open with the smaller balls, controlling and tracking the spin was much harder.  So it's logical to serve more long serves these days since letting the opponent open doesn't let them win the point outright.  The first loop isn't as great a weapon as it used to be, unless of course, it comes of a high ball.

Agreed, it's really not that easy to win the point outright with the 1st loop these days, especially when the long serve is of very high quality (fast, long, low, good placement, plenty of spin variation) which makes it very difficult to add quality to the loop. 

The advantages of long serves are even more pronounced against pip players because they don't have the advantage of generating heavy topspin in their attacks thus making it much more unreliable and mistake prone. The best response they usually have is to bump or chop/push it back low and long - and then this gives you the chance to comfortably perform an attacking loop which just starts the rally. 

I remember watching Sun Yingsha playing against Ito and it was just long serves all day long with the occasional short no-spin serve just to force the rally. 
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2020 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.