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Rakza Z Deep Dive

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    Posted: 01/11/2023 at 6:50am
Hi All,

As a former Tenergy 05 user, I've been playing with Dignics 09c (both sides, on Primorac Carbon, fairly conventional looping game) for a while, and even though it works well in some situations, I'm looking for something a bit easier to use. D09c seems to work well in high speeds, but it's not very bouncy in slower speeds neither is it easy to use for open ups or safe spinny lower speed game. The hard topsheet also tends to lose grip in humid conditions. 

Would Rakza Z be a viable alternative? 

How does Rakza Z compare to D09c with respect to open-ups, ease of use, enaging the sponge and topsheet at slower speeds or counterlooping? What about the arc? Is it as high D09c? Is the responsiveness like a Tenergy 05 with a grippy topsheet or something completely different? 

Thank you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2023 at 9:04am
I've used both.  I think it depends on what properties of 09c you're not happy with.  You could be unhappy with the level of tack (slows ball down in low gears, humidity issues), or the lack of catapult from the hard sponge (too linear in low/medium gears).

If tack is the problem, I wouldn't recommend RZ.  The topsheet has a similar tackiness.

If hardness is the problem, RZ is quite a bit softer and could be a good alternative for you.  I found it easier to get the sponge working, although the top-end power is lower (there's always a compromise to be made).

You're in the UK - I have some used sheets of RZ and RZ Extra Hard knocking around here.  Send a PM if you want to give them a try.

I'm using Rasanter C52 these days, which is just barely tacky (lower than 09c and RZ), plays closer to a traditional eurojap.  These "barely hybrid" rubbers might offer another option.  Tibhar Hybrid K3 is another good one perhaps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rollko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2023 at 9:46am
Thanks, Andy

Edited by Rollko - 01/11/2023 at 9:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2023 at 12:13pm
Panda pong compared the two a while ago:

I have no relation to them .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guni4you Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2023 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

I've used both.  I think it depends on what properties of 09c you're not happy with.  You could be unhappy with the level of tack (slows ball down in low gears, humidity issues), or the lack of catapult from the hard sponge (too linear in low/medium gears).

If tack is the problem, I wouldn't recommend RZ.  The topsheet has a similar tackiness.

If hardness is the problem, RZ is quite a bit softer and could be a good alternative for you.  I found it easier to get the sponge working, although the top-end power is lower (there's always a compromise to be made).

You're in the UK - I have some used sheets of RZ and RZ Extra Hard knocking around here.  Send a PM if you want to give them a try.

I'm using Rasanter C52 these days, which is just barely tacky (lower than 09c and RZ), plays closer to a traditional eurojap.  These "barely hybrid" rubbers might offer another option.  Tibhar Hybrid K3 is another good one perhaps.

Yeah I think away from the table these barely hybrid rubbers like K3 are just like the traditional euro jap rubber. Trying k3 now after using 09c for 2 years. I feel like I have to adjust to the lower throw of K3 compared to 09c. For now I feel like 09c is a more safer rubber and more spin on slow shots, as the topsheet is more tacky, but on hard impact K3 is just amazing(has that addictive cracking sound on hard shots) and I feel like favours the aggressive game more. In the open game definitely better than 09c. If I can adjust to the lower throw this rubber is definitely a keeper as the impact and feeling to my hand on hard and perfectly positioned shots is just addictive tbh. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2023 at 8:08pm
Rubbers like 09c require you to have the ability to use the body and weight transfer to fully take advantage of its properties, as well as the proper technique to spin the ball. I believe some coaching is probably more advantageous compared to endless changing of rubbers...

The reason why "slower rubbers" like 09c and other tacky rubbers are used, is to maximise spin to speed ratio to improve control and reduce unforced errors. However this means that you have to produce the speed yourself with the body and proper mechanics. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2023 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

I've used both.  I think it depends on what properties of 09c you're not happy with.  You could be unhappy with the level of tack (slows ball down in low gears, humidity issues), or the lack of catapult from the hard sponge (too linear in low/medium gears).

If tack is the problem, I wouldn't recommend RZ.  The topsheet has a similar tackiness.

If hardness is the problem, RZ is quite a bit softer and could be a good alternative for you.  I found it easier to get the sponge working, although the top-end power is lower (there's always a compromise to be made).

You're in the UK - I have some used sheets of RZ and RZ Extra Hard knocking around here.  Send a PM if you want to give them a try.

I'm using Rasanter C52 these days, which is just barely tacky (lower than 09c and RZ), plays closer to a traditional eurojap.  These "barely hybrid" rubbers might offer another option.  Tibhar Hybrid K3 is another good one perhaps.

The C-series: how long does their tack last and how much does it help?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2023 at 3:25am
The problem surely is your blade and not the rubbers. Primorac Carbon is one of the fastest blades available and technically very demanding. Switching to a blade with more dwell would make it a lot easier for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2023 at 4:46am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The C-series: how long does their tack last and how much does it help?

I've used C53 on FH for the first half of my season, so that's 4 months, probably 3 hours a week (2 hours training, 1 hour matches, on average).  The tack is still almost the same as when new, but bear in mind that - 

1 - Tack was very low to begin with.
2 - It's a pain to keep clean.
3 - Visually, the topsheet looks awful.  In fact, this is one of the worst topsheets I've ever used for the aesthetic wear, looks totally battered after the first month.  But it plays great, it's just the visuals.

I've just switched to a fresh sheet for the 2nd half because the sponge had hardened up a bit.  Suppose I could have boosted it but I don't like the faff / legality.  I know you asked about the topsheet but thought it was worth mentioning.

How much does it help?  It helps me quite a bit, YMMV of course.  It feels like there's a little bit of "hold" on the ball on contact, as you'd expect from a tacky topsheet, but it doesn't have the spin sensitivity you'd expect.  Andro talk about the pip geometry having an impact on this, maybe there's something in that or maybe it's nonsense.  The best comparison I have is - imagine a sheet of MX-S that has higher arc, a touch slower, and much better brush loop performance.  Which really appeals to me, considering my level and how I play.  Bit expensive, but you can get them in the 4/3 offer at TT11.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2023 at 11:33am
"3 - Visually, the topsheet looks awful.  In fact, this is one of the worst topsheets I've ever used for the aesthetic wear, looks totally battered after the first month.  But it plays great, it's just the visuals."

Andy, my sheet looked beaten up after a couple of weeks.  I asked for similar experience last Summer but no one had experience with it at that time.  Good to know it wasn't just my glue job that ruined the look.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guni4you Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/12/2023 at 11:38am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The C-series: how long does their tack last and how much does it help?

I've used C53 on FH for the first half of my season, so that's 4 months, probably 3 hours a week (2 hours training, 1 hour matches, on average).  The tack is still almost the same as when new, but bear in mind that - 

1 - Tack was very low to begin with.
2 - It's a pain to keep clean.
3 - Visually, the topsheet looks awful.  In fact, this is one of the worst topsheets I've ever used for the aesthetic wear, looks totally battered after the first month.  But it plays great, it's just the visuals.

I've just switched to a fresh sheet for the 2nd half because the sponge had hardened up a bit.  Suppose I could have boosted it but I don't like the faff / legality.  I know you asked about the topsheet but thought it was worth mentioning.

How much does it help?  It helps me quite a bit, YMMV of course.  It feels like there's a little bit of "hold" on the ball on contact, as you'd expect from a tacky topsheet, but it doesn't have the spin sensitivity you'd expect.  Andro talk about the pip geometry having an impact on this, maybe there's something in that or maybe it's nonsense.  The best comparison I have is - imagine a sheet of MX-S that has higher arc, a touch slower, and much better brush loop performance.  Which really appeals to me, considering my level and how I play.  Bit expensive, but you can get them in the 4/3 offer at TT11.

Hi Andy,
Can you please compare C53 with K3? Is the hardness and throw of K3 similar? What about the amazing speed that K3 has? Moreover, I have been a 09c user for a while, I don’t know why I find it tough to loop underspin with K3 compared to 09c. With 09c, I just didn’t make any errors looping underspin. No matter how much the spin, I could just brush and go forward and the rubber took care of the arc that’s what I felt. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/13/2023 at 6:20am
Originally posted by guni4you guni4you wrote:

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The C-series: how long does their tack last and how much does it help?

I've used C53 on FH for the first half of my season, so that's 4 months, probably 3 hours a week (2 hours training, 1 hour matches, on average).  The tack is still almost the same as when new, but bear in mind that - 

1 - Tack was very low to begin with.
2 - It's a pain to keep clean.
3 - Visually, the topsheet looks awful.  In fact, this is one of the worst topsheets I've ever used for the aesthetic wear, looks totally battered after the first month.  But it plays great, it's just the visuals.

I've just switched to a fresh sheet for the 2nd half because the sponge had hardened up a bit.  Suppose I could have boosted it but I don't like the faff / legality.  I know you asked about the topsheet but thought it was worth mentioning.

How much does it help?  It helps me quite a bit, YMMV of course.  It feels like there's a little bit of "hold" on the ball on contact, as you'd expect from a tacky topsheet, but it doesn't have the spin sensitivity you'd expect.  Andro talk about the pip geometry having an impact on this, maybe there's something in that or maybe it's nonsense.  The best comparison I have is - imagine a sheet of MX-S that has higher arc, a touch slower, and much better brush loop performance.  Which really appeals to me, considering my level and how I play.  Bit expensive, but you can get them in the 4/3 offer at TT11.

Hi Andy,
Can you please compare C53 with K3? Is the hardness and throw of K3 similar? What about the amazing speed that K3 has? Moreover, I have been a 09c user for a while, I don’t know why I find it tough to loop underspin with K3 compared to 09c. With 09c, I just didn’t make any errors looping underspin. No matter how much the spin, I could just brush and go forward and the rubber took care of the arc that’s what I felt. 


That's as big a reason as any to forget any other rubber and stick to 09c


Edited by Tinykin - 01/13/2023 at 7:56am


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/13/2023 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by guni4you guni4you wrote:

Hi Andy,
Can you please compare C53 with K3? Is the hardness and throw of K3 similar? What about the amazing speed that K3 has? Moreover, I have been a 09c user for a while, I don’t know why I find it tough to loop underspin with K3 compared to 09c. With 09c, I just didn’t make any errors looping underspin. No matter how much the spin, I could just brush and go forward and the rubber took care of the arc that’s what I felt. 

C53 is harder and more linear than K3.  I get the impression that K3 comes with more factory boost than the C series - seems to have more catapult, but arc drops on big shots for me.  Some people love that kind of behaviour though.

C53 remains really predictable all through the gears, but feels slower than K3 in a lot of situations - needs more elbow grease in the middle gears.  I still like K3 on BH side, and I'm curious about Hybrid MK's 48 degree sponge approach on that wing too but seems to only be available in Japan at the mo.

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Andy, my sheet looked beaten up after a couple of weeks.  I asked for similar experience last Summer but no one had experience with it at that time.  Good to know it wasn't just my glue job that ruined the look.

Yeah, some of these hybrids aren't for players who care about their rubber's visuals.  If you like the vintage look, you'll be happy sooner though.

There don't seem to be any hybrids available in the new colour options either, unless I've missed one. Wonder if that's related to the topsheet manufacturing process?

Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

That's as big a reason as any to forget any other rubber and stick to 09c

Good, practical advice from the Captain's Dad there.  09c remains a really good rubber, I'd be more than happy to use it if someone gave it to me for free.  I can't stomach the price, fair play to those who can, and I feel that the harder ESN hybrids are close enough that I can adjust and be happy.  There are differences, but not enough that you can't train your way through them after a few weeks IMO.  Just don't expect an 09c clone and you'll be fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/14/2023 at 1:02am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:



Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

That's as big a reason as any to forget any other rubber and stick to 09c

Good, practical advice from the Captain's Dad there.  09c remains a really good rubber, I'd be more than happy to use it if someone gave it to me for free.  I can't stomach the price, fair play to those who can, and I feel that the harder ESN hybrids are close enough that I can adjust and be happy.  There are differences, but not enough that you can't train your way through them after a few weeks IMO.  Just don't expect an 09c clone and you'll be fine.

Agreed on this - 09c is one of the best rubbers one can get... I'm now using Hurricane 8-80 which is almost a 09c clone but even it doesn't come close to the 09c trajectory (extreme spin/dip on the ball) on topspin strokes. Sometimes I kinda miss that feeling but looking at the price tag makes me justify my current decision to use a rubber that is 80-90% performance of 09c at 1/3 the price (Hurricane 8-80)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2023 at 12:40am
The hardest shot I ever hit was with 09c.  But those days are in my past...

I think the Rasanter C48 is tempting - I have decided to avoid hard sponge because of its weight.  I really should just forget about testing rubber but my game is often close to the table counterloop and I feel like the C48 was built for my style so I almost feel obligated to test it.

Why C53 over C48 for Andy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2023 at 10:38am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The hardest shot I ever hit was with 09c.  But those days are in my past...

I think the Rasanter C48 is tempting - I have decided to avoid hard sponge because of its weight.  I really should just forget about testing rubber but my game is often close to the table counterloop and I feel like the C48 was built for my style so I almost feel obligated to test it.

Why C53 over C48 for Andy?

I'm a creature of habit, always make an assumption that I'll need a softer rubber on my BH side so when I try new stuff out I'll get the soft and hard variants and start from there.  Also, my FH remains too brushy and a harder sponge seems to support that a bit more.  Doesn't make perfect sense - if there had been a C45 as well I would have gone with C45/C48 and might never have tried C53 at all.

I did try a C48 in Max on FH for a while as well and it was good, openers easier, loop-loop easier, could get on with it just fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2023 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The hardest shot I ever hit was with 09c.  But those days are in my past...

I think the Rasanter C48 is tempting - I have decided to avoid hard sponge because of its weight.  I really should just forget about testing rubber but my game is often close to the table counterloop and I feel like the C48 was built for my style so I almost feel obligated to test it.

Why C53 over C48 for Andy?

I'm a creature of habit, always make an assumption that I'll need a softer rubber on my BH side so when I try new stuff out I'll get the soft and hard variants and start from there.  Also, my FH remains too brushy and a harder sponge seems to support that a bit more.  Doesn't make perfect sense - if there had been a C45 as well I would have gone with C45/C48 and might never have tried C53 at all.

I did try a C48 in Max on FH for a while as well and it was good, openers easier, loop-loop easier, could get on with it just fine.

Thanks.  What is the durability like and is there a booster effect that one should be wary of?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2023 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Thanks.  What is the durability like and is there a booster effect that one should be wary of?

I think the main thing to be aware of is the visual deterioration - really bad, esp on the black sheets.  But it's just cosmetic, doesn't seem to affect performance.  But seriously, after 2-3 weeks I thought sheeeesh...

There's some reverse dome out of the packet, and my C53 seemed to stiffen up a bit after 4-5 months, but to be honest that's about as much as I expect from a rubber these days so I'm happy with that personally.

Keeping it tacky during a match can be a challenge, seems to pick up every bit of passing dust.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2023 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Thanks.  What is the durability like and is there a booster effect that one should be wary of?

I think the main thing to be aware of is the visual deterioration - really bad, esp on the black sheets.  But it's just cosmetic, doesn't seem to affect performance.  But seriously, after 2-3 weeks I thought sheeeesh...

There's some reverse dome out of the packet, and my C53 seemed to stiffen up a bit after 4-5 months, but to be honest that's about as much as I expect from a rubber these days so I'm happy with that personally.

Keeping it tacky during a match can be a challenge, seems to pick up every bit of passing dust.

Thanks.  I was thinking about trying something else first, but I will give this C48 a shot in max and see whether it helps.  I see more and more that I can't do anything other than play counter topspins close to the table so this might help a bit with that.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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