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long pips underspin serve
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blahness View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01/19/2023 at 11:06pm
I noticed that a lot of long pips players use this serve quite a bit. 

So basically they kinda hit it quite hard with a downwards movement and the ball somehow has quite a bit of underspin on it (I thought long pips were slippery and can't generate spin like this?), and sometimes it has topspin on it with the exact same movement? 

I don't really get this long pip serve tbh, anyone here using long pips which can hopefully tell me what is going on (how the spin variations are being generated)  and what to look out for to tell the spin on this serve.
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mjamja View Drop Down
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Points: 2846 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/19/2023 at 11:31pm
One of the reasons it works is that the opponent believes LP can not generate its own spin.  They can, but not heavy spin.  Of course some LP's are much more capable in this regards than others.  

When the ball being hit has little spin on it and has little forward motion (allowing for more dwell time) the bending and rebound of the pips can generate spin.  A service toss is the ideal ball for doing this. 

In the serve you describe I think the downward motion at contact bends the pips and creates slight underspin.  If the downward motion ends just before contact then the ball comes off the racket dead or just slight top (from downward motion of ball) and increases topspin as it bounces twice on the table.  This is done the same way with inverted, but the amount of spin in either direction is much greater than with LP.  But since most people expect no spin from the LP serve, even a little spin can cause a miss.

If the server can make the contact thin enough, they can keep the pips from bending and serve dead with a stroke that looks like even heavier spin than the one that actually does produce spin.

Note: I am new to using LP, but have spent lots of hours playing against and practicing with LP players.  This is my best take from that in reference to your question.

Mark
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blahness View Drop Down
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Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

One of the reasons it works is that the opponent believes LP can not generate its own spin.  They can, but not heavy spin.  Of course some LP's are much more capable in this regards than others.  

When the ball being hit has little spin on it and has little forward motion (allowing for more dwell time) the bending and rebound of the pips can generate spin.  A service toss is the ideal ball for doing this. 

In the serve you describe I think the downward motion at contact bends the pips and creates slight underspin.  If the downward motion ends just before contact then the ball comes off the racket dead or just slight top (from downward motion of ball) and increases topspin as it bounces twice on the table.  This is done the same way with inverted, but the amount of spin in either direction is much greater than with LP.  But since most people expect no spin from the LP serve, even a little spin can cause a miss.

If the server can make the contact thin enough, they can keep the pips from bending and serve dead with a stroke that looks like even heavier spin than the one that actually does produce spin.

Note: I am new to using LP, but have spent lots of hours playing against and practicing with LP players.  This is my best take from that in reference to your question.

Mark

Does it mean thicker solid contact = more underspin, and a thinner/casual contact = no spin or even topspin? 
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liXiao View Drop Down
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Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

One of the reasons it works is that the opponent believes LP can not generate its own spin.  They can, but not heavy spin.  Of course some LP's are much more capable in this regards than others.  

When the ball being hit has little spin on it and has little forward motion (allowing for more dwell time) the bending and rebound of the pips can generate spin.  A service toss is the ideal ball for doing this. 

In the serve you describe I think the downward motion at contact bends the pips and creates slight underspin.  If the downward motion ends just before contact then the ball comes off the racket dead or just slight top (from downward motion of ball) and increases topspin as it bounces twice on the table.  This is done the same way with inverted, but the amount of spin in either direction is much greater than with LP.  But since most people expect no spin from the LP serve, even a little spin can cause a miss.

If the server can make the contact thin enough, they can keep the pips from bending and serve dead with a stroke that looks like even heavier spin than the one that actually does produce spin.

Note: I am new to using LP, but have spent lots of hours playing against and practicing with LP players.  This is my best take from that in reference to your question.

Mark

Does it mean thicker solid contact = more underspin, and a thinner/casual contact = no spin or even topspin? 


Yes because the more you bend the pips = the greater the effect. I'm also quite surprised at how many people are caught off guard how effectively you can rally (i.e. not block) with LP.
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blahness View Drop Down
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Points: 5247 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2023 at 7:26am
Originally posted by liXiao liXiao wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

One of the reasons it works is that the opponent believes LP can not generate its own spin.  They can, but not heavy spin.  Of course some LP's are much more capable in this regards than others.  

When the ball being hit has little spin on it and has little forward motion (allowing for more dwell time) the bending and rebound of the pips can generate spin.  A service toss is the ideal ball for doing this. 

In the serve you describe I think the downward motion at contact bends the pips and creates slight underspin.  If the downward motion ends just before contact then the ball comes off the racket dead or just slight top (from downward motion of ball) and increases topspin as it bounces twice on the table.  This is done the same way with inverted, but the amount of spin in either direction is much greater than with LP.  But since most people expect no spin from the LP serve, even a little spin can cause a miss.

If the server can make the contact thin enough, they can keep the pips from bending and serve dead with a stroke that looks like even heavier spin than the one that actually does produce spin.

Note: I am new to using LP, but have spent lots of hours playing against and practicing with LP players.  This is my best take from that in reference to your question.

Mark

Does it mean thicker solid contact = more underspin, and a thinner/casual contact = no spin or even topspin? 


Yes because the more you bend the pips = the greater the effect. I'm also quite surprised at how many people are caught off guard how effectively you can rally (i.e. not block) with LP.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. It's actually a bit counterintuitive because with inverted, thicker contact usually means less spin, and thin contacts have the heaviest spin
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vanjr View Drop Down
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Points: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2023 at 9:29am
Spin serves with LP also depend on thickness of sponge (if any). The thicker the sponge, the more spin is possible. 
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