Resolution B-01 – Effective immediately if it passes (Simple majority required) Proposed by the ITTF Executive Committee To establish a Working Group with representatives of the Athletes Commission, Umpires and Referees Committee, Rules Committee, the Technical Commissioner (and any other relevant Committees/Officials/staff as deemed necessary), with the goal to develop a regulation about “Time between points”. Rationale: Time between points is a critical issue, especially for those, who are not hard-core fans of table tennis. Multiple times during events, players take too long between points, which makes the matches, and the competition days longer making more difficult to create clear schedules and in addition affects the interest of spectators/viewers/broadcasters. The goal of this project is to find ways to enforce more effectively regulation 3.4.4.1 about continuous play. More effective methods (i.e. time control, match officials’ reminders etc.) should be implemented in events with the aim to develop and improve the current regulations.
11.3.2. Time Between Points 20220129-EC-09 The Executive Committee agreed for the Time Between Points Working Group to be composed as follows: MAEHARA Masahiro (EC member who will act as chair of the WG), Graeme IRELAND (Technical Commissioner), two members of the Athletes Commission (with one being a Para Athlete), one member of the URC, one member of the Rules Committee, one staff with experience in competition matters and one staff with experience in media matters.
The Athletes Commission members contributed to many working groups throughout 2021. We were able to actively participate and represent the voice of the athletes on the Governance Review Working Group represented by Sarah Hanffou, the Olympic and Paralympic Qualification System WG through Galia Dvorak and Trevor Hirth, the World Ranking WG through Jean-Michel Saive and Dana Cechova and the Time Between Points WG through Alena Kanova and Marcos Madrid.
Wow! I never knew badminton paid so well. There are quite a few good players in North America who stopped playing table tennis tournaments because coaching is safer and more lucrative.
Broke sports deal with it. The rich sports realize they are selling fair competition and entertainment and find ways to enhance both with rule changes.
Badminton is pretty much the same. Many Olympic sports are broke. The fact is, all rich sports do not care about the Olympics, Soccer/Football, Basketball, Tennis Golf, etc. Until the day WTT makes table tennis independent of Olympics, it's not gonna happen.
Rankings are out now. Hayata moves up a spot to WR#5. Felix is at WR#9. Dima is at WR#8. LYJ down to WR#10. Next week, points from WTT Finals expire. This is huge for Tomo as has 1050 points from last year's WTT Finals. He still should remain in top 10, but on the lower end.
This is going to be interesting for sure.
Yes, interesting on many fronts. WYD has 525 pts expiring from 2022 WTT Finals so she'll drop to #5 allowing Hayata to grab #4. Mima Ito, currently at WR#9, has 265 pts expiring so will drop out of the top 10. Although not directly tied the 3rd spot in Paris 2024, it doesn't help her case if her ranking is in a downward trajectory. Miu Hirano is right on the edge of making or not making the 2023 WTT Finals in December so she needs to keep her ranking up by doing well in Frankfurt. Adriana Diaz has 265 pts expiring from WTT Finals followed by 500 pts expiring the following week from 2022 Pan Am Champs. Winning or making the finals at the Pan Am Games is a must for Adriana Diaz to keep her ranking up.
The 500 pts Diaz is losing would be replaced by 175 from the Panam Champs. So she definitely has to get to the finals to make that 175 go to 350 or win it to make it 500.
Rankings are out now. Hayata moves up a spot to WR#5. Felix is at WR#9. Dima is at WR#8. LYJ down to WR#10. Next week, points from WTT Finals expire. This is huge for Tomo as has 1050 points from last year's WTT Finals. He still should remain in top 10, but on the lower end.
This is going to be interesting for sure.
Yes, interesting on many fronts. WYD has 525 pts expiring from 2022 WTT Finals so she'll drop to #5 allowing Hayata to grab #4. Mima Ito, currently at WR#9, has 265 pts expiring so will drop out of the top 10. Although not directly tied the 3rd spot in Paris 2024, it doesn't help her case if her ranking is in a downward trajectory. Miu Hirano is right on the edge of making or not making the 2023 WTT Finals in December so she needs to keep her ranking up by doing well in Frankfurt. Adriana Diaz has 265 pts expiring from WTT Finals followed by 500 pts expiring the following week from 2022 Pan Am Champs. Winning or making the finals at the Pan Am Games is a must for Adriana Diaz to keep her ranking up.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course you can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, you are moving the goal post
Foul play is not determined by the rules only, but also by the etiquette. So sorry, but you're nobody here to tell if we are or not allowed to talk about DIma's and other players behavior. because it's all about behaviors coming from other sports like tennis or football.
Just have a look at this: 2 guys in the world top 10 in 1991, one has been number 1 and world champion already at that time, see the pace of BOTH players in REAL TIME.
21 pts game, no time out, you have to wait 21 to get a water break, towel break each 5 pts. No bouncing, no hand raising, nothing. 159 points played in less than 45 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FQyJmBHok
THIS is good behavior and the right etiquette. Gatien is out of stamina at the end, that's why he makes a wrong serve. Peopple saying today's TT is way more physical tna 30 years ago or ignorant. I mean... I've played both systems, and todays 11pts is way easier physically speaking, you have a break wooner than before
It took 1 hour to Dima to loose that final 2 days ago with towel breaks each 6 and water breaks each 11 pts for... 146 pts only ! with more breaks than 30 years ago he needs to raise his hand, to bounce the ball, to fake a broken ball, man it's not soccer ! (as Nigel Owens would certainly tell him).
TT is going for worse nowadays with those wrong behaviors, Eurosport was airing big competitions until the covid, now since it's China controlling everything, no hidden serve is enforced because it's not ok for Ma Long and Wang Chuqin, no raising hands is enforced because it would not help the CNT, and now the big broadcasters do not care anymore for TT.
Have you ever looked at things differently and think about how the receiver stalling is actually giving the server ample time to think up a trickier serve. There's always an other perspective.
More importantly, Relax, Table Tennis is not out to get France, France has not even been in the big picture of a TT power since Gatien's era until last year, and the current rules were the same in 2021, They didn't change because Felix and Alexis joined the sport. The Lebruns' do not have perfectly clean serves either, so I don't know what's the gripe about. The CNT's play normally is fast paced power shots, so they're still most likely to win without any breathers. Btw, you can watch stills from most non Chinese players you can think of signalling with their hand to delay the serve a bit, Harimoto does it, LYJ does it. Even many European players do it. It's not a phenomenon peculiar only to the CNT, or enforced by the refs due to the CNT.
At the end of the day, whoever wins comes down to skill, will and a little luck. Not who serves the fastest.
you are funny. BTW I think he was complaining about DIMA mostly
The essence of the tirade was in the last paragraph, it has been a gradual build-up to that, Dima is just an "old" player taking advantage of the rules, Ultimate blame is with China who has been allegedly "running things" and spoiling them since WTT, and allowing players like Dima to circumvent the rules. How they won anything in Tokyo is a mystery to me, since that was in No-nonsense Japan. We'll see what excuse France has at Paris 2024, Thank Goodness the control is in their hands in that event. I hope they can enforce the "right" rules.
didn't read that last paragraph. Boy this guy is very biased.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course you can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, you are moving the goal post
Foul play is not determined by the rules only, but also by the etiquette. So sorry, but you're nobody here to tell if we are or not allowed to talk about DIma's and other players behavior. because it's all about behaviors coming from other sports like tennis or football.
Just have a look at this: 2 guys in the world top 10 in 1991, one has been number 1 and world champion already at that time, see the pace of BOTH players in REAL TIME.
21 pts game, no time out, you have to wait 21 to get a water break, towel break each 5 pts. No bouncing, no hand raising, nothing. 159 points played in less than 45 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FQyJmBHok
THIS is good behavior and the right etiquette. Gatien is out of stamina at the end, that's why he makes a wrong serve. Peopple saying today's TT is way more physical tna 30 years ago or ignorant. I mean... I've played both systems, and todays 11pts is way easier physically speaking, you have a break wooner than before
It took 1 hour to Dima to loose that final 2 days ago with towel breaks each 6 and water breaks each 11 pts for... 146 pts only ! with more breaks than 30 years ago he needs to raise his hand, to bounce the ball, to fake a broken ball, man it's not soccer ! (as Nigel Owens would certainly tell him).
TT is going for worse nowadays with those wrong behaviors, Eurosport was airing big competitions until the covid, now since it's China controlling everything, no hidden serve is enforced because it's not ok for Ma Long and Wang Chuqin, no raising hands is enforced because it would not help the CNT, and now the big broadcasters do not care anymore for TT.
Have you ever looked at things differently and think about how the receiver stalling is actually giving the server ample time to think up a trickier serve. There's always an other perspective.
More importantly, Relax, Table Tennis is not out to get France, France has not even been in the big picture of a TT power since Gatien's era until last year, and the current rules were the same in 2021, They didn't change because Felix and Alexis joined the sport. The Lebruns' do not have perfectly clean serves either, so I don't know what's the gripe about. The CNT's play normally is fast paced power shots, so they're still most likely to win without any breathers. Btw, you can watch stills from most non Chinese players you can think of signalling with their hand to delay the serve a bit, Harimoto does it, LYJ does it. Even many European players do it. It's not a phenomenon peculiar only to the CNT, or enforced by the refs due to the CNT.
At the end of the day, whoever wins comes down to skill, will and a little luck. Not who serves the fastest.
you are funny. BTW I think he was complaining about DIMA mostly
The essence of the tirade was in the last paragraph, it has been a gradual build-up to that, Dima is just an "old" player taking advantage of the rules, Ultimate blame is with China who has been allegedly "running things" and spoiling them since WTT, and allowing players like Dima to circumvent the rules. How they won anything in Tokyo is a mystery to me, since that was in No-nonsense Japan. We'll see what excuse France has at Paris 2024, Thank Goodness the control is in their hands in that event. I hope they can enforce the "right" rules.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course you can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, you are moving the goal post
Foul play is not determined by the rules only, but also by the etiquette. So sorry, but you're nobody here to tell if we are or not allowed to talk about DIma's and other players behavior. because it's all about behaviors coming from other sports like tennis or football.
Just have a look at this: 2 guys in the world top 10 in 1991, one has been number 1 and world champion already at that time, see the pace of BOTH players in REAL TIME.
21 pts game, no time out, you have to wait 21 to get a water break, towel break each 5 pts. No bouncing, no hand raising, nothing. 159 points played in less than 45 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FQyJmBHok
THIS is good behavior and the right etiquette. Gatien is out of stamina at the end, that's why he makes a wrong serve. Peopple saying today's TT is way more physical tna 30 years ago or ignorant. I mean... I've played both systems, and todays 11pts is way easier physically speaking, you have a break wooner than before
It took 1 hour to Dima to loose that final 2 days ago with towel breaks each 6 and water breaks each 11 pts for... 146 pts only ! with more breaks than 30 years ago he needs to raise his hand, to bounce the ball, to fake a broken ball, man it's not soccer ! (as Nigel Owens would certainly tell him).
TT is going for worse nowadays with those wrong behaviors, Eurosport was airing big competitions until the covid, now since it's China controlling everything, no hidden serve is enforced because it's not ok for Ma Long and Wang Chuqin, no raising hands is enforced because it would not help the CNT, and now the big broadcasters do not care anymore for TT.
Have you ever looked at things differently and think about how the receiver stalling is actually giving the server ample time to think up a trickier serve. There's always an other perspective.
More importantly, Relax, Table Tennis is not out to get France, France has not even been in the big picture of a TT power since Gatien's era until last year, and the current rules were the same in 2021, They didn't change because Felix and Alexis joined the sport. The Lebruns' do not have perfectly clean serves either, so I don't know what's the gripe about. The CNT's play normally is fast paced power shots, so they're still most likely to win without any breathers. Btw, you can watch stills from most non Chinese players you can think of signalling with their hand to delay the serve a bit, Harimoto does it, LYJ does it. Even many European players do it. It's not a phenomenon peculiar only to the CNT, or enforced by the refs due to the CNT.
At the end of the day, whoever wins comes down to skill, will and a little luck. Not who serves the fastest.
you are funny. BTW I think he was complaining about DIMA mostly
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course you can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, you are moving the goal post
Foul play is not determined by the rules only, but also by the etiquette. So sorry, but you're nobody here to tell if we are or not allowed to talk about DIma's and other players behavior. because it's all about behaviors coming from other sports like tennis or football.
Just have a look at this: 2 guys in the world top 10 in 1991, one has been number 1 and world champion already at that time, see the pace of BOTH players in REAL TIME.
21 pts game, no time out, you have to wait 21 to get a water break, towel break each 5 pts. No bouncing, no hand raising, nothing. 159 points played in less than 45 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FQyJmBHok
THIS is good behavior and the right etiquette. Gatien is out of stamina at the end, that's why he makes a wrong serve. Peopple saying today's TT is way more physical tna 30 years ago or ignorant. I mean... I've played both systems, and todays 11pts is way easier physically speaking, you have a break wooner than before
It took 1 hour to Dima to loose that final 2 days ago with towel breaks each 6 and water breaks each 11 pts for... 146 pts only ! with more breaks than 30 years ago he needs to raise his hand, to bounce the ball, to fake a broken ball, man it's not soccer ! (as Nigel Owens would certainly tell him).
TT is going for worse nowadays with those wrong behaviors, Eurosport was airing big competitions until the covid, now since it's China controlling everything, no hidden serve is enforced because it's not ok for Ma Long and Wang Chuqin, no raising hands is enforced because it would not help the CNT, and now the big broadcasters do not care anymore for TT.
Have you ever looked at things differently and think about how the receiver stalling is actually giving the server ample time to think up a trickier serve. There's always an other perspective.
More importantly, Relax, Table Tennis is not out to get France, France has not even been in the big picture of a TT power since Gatien's era until last year, and the current rules were the same in 2021, They didn't change because Felix and Alexis joined the sport. The Lebruns' do not have perfectly clean serves either, so I don't know what's the gripe about. The CNT's play normally is fast paced power shots, so they're still most likely to win without any breathers. Btw, you can watch stills from most non Chinese players you can think of signalling with their hand to delay the serve a bit, Harimoto does it, LYJ does it. Even many European players do it. It's not a phenomenon peculiar only to the CNT, or enforced by the refs due to the CNT.
At the end of the day, whoever wins comes down to skill, will and a little luck. Not who serves the fastest.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course you can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, you are moving the goal post
Foul play is not determined by the rules only, but also by the etiquette. So sorry, but you're nobody here to tell if we are or not allowed to talk about DIma's and other players behavior. because it's all about behaviors coming from other sports like tennis or football.
Just have a look at this: 2 guys in the world top 10 in 1991, one has been number 1 and world champion already at that time, see the pace of BOTH players in REAL TIME.
21 pts game, no time out, you have to wait 21 to get a water break, towel break each 5 pts. No bouncing, no hand raising, nothing. 159 points played in less than 45 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FQyJmBHok
THIS is good behavior and the right etiquette. Gatien is out of stamina at the end, that's why he makes a wrong serve. Peopple saying today's TT is way more physical tna 30 years ago or ignorant. I mean... I've played both systems, and todays 11pts is way easier physically speaking, you have a break wooner than before
It took 1 hour to Dima to loose that final 2 days ago with towel breaks each 6 and water breaks each 11 pts for... 146 pts only ! with more breaks than 30 years ago he needs to raise his hand, to bounce the ball, to fake a broken ball, man it's not soccer ! (as Nigel Owens would certainly tell him).
TT is going for worse nowadays with those wrong behaviors, Eurosport was airing big competitions until the covid, now since it's China controlling everything, no hidden serve is enforced because it's not ok for Ma Long and Wang Chuqin, no raising hands is enforced because it would not help the CNT, and now the big broadcasters do not care anymore for TT.
music & ping, none of my posts responded to any of your posts except when you addressed me directly today. Please check the flow of the conversation before you make your grand judgements. For talking about DIMA's slow receive, where did I say you shouldn't talk about it in general? As for etiqutte it is the current ones that are relavent and I think quite a few people would say both fast serving and slow receiving are both discourteous.
Rankings are out now. Hayata moves up a spot to WR#5. Felix is at WR#9. Dima is at WR#8. LYJ down to WR#10. Next week, points from WTT Finals expire. This is huge for Tomo as has 1050 points from last year's WTT Finals. He still should remain in top 10, but on the lower end.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course you can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, you are moving the goal post
Foul play is not determined by the rules only, but also by the etiquette. So sorry, but you're nobody here to tell if we are or not allowed to talk about DIma's and other players behavior. because it's all about behaviors coming from other sports like tennis or football.
Just have a look at this: 2 guys in the world top 10 in 1991, one has been number 1 and world champion already at that time, see the pace of BOTH players in REAL TIME.
21 pts game, no time out, you have to wait 21 to get a water break, towel break each 5 pts. No bouncing, no hand raising, nothing. 159 points played in less than 45 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FQyJmBHok
THIS is good behavior and the right etiquette. Gatien is out of stamina at the end, that's why he makes a wrong serve. Peopple saying today's TT is way more physical tna 30 years ago or ignorant. I mean... I've played both systems, and todays 11pts is way easier physically speaking, you have a break wooner than before
It took 1 hour to Dima to loose that final 2 days ago with towel breaks each 6 and water breaks each 11 pts for... 146 pts only ! with more breaks than 30 years ago he needs to raise his hand, to bounce the ball, to fake a broken ball, man it's not soccer ! (as Nigel Owens would certainly tell him).
TT is going for worse nowadays with those wrong behaviors, Eurosport was airing big competitions until the covid, now since it's China controlling everything, no hidden serve is enforced because it's not ok for Ma Long and Wang Chuqin, no raising hands is enforced because it would not help the CNT, and now the big broadcasters do not care anymore for TT.
11 point games have raised the value of a single point, so it does make more sense that players want to invest more time preparing for each point vs the 21 point days. But whether that is a good thing or not, I will leave to the ITTF. Pace of play is a consideration in all sports entertainment.
Tennis and Badminton are similar sports to TT in their make-up and the use of space, Is the serve and receive solely based on the server's will in these sports? Seems like the receiver has some say to me.
I watch badminton often and due to the nature of the long rallies, players are often breathless and they'll delay the server by a couple seconds to catch their breath. Even the server delays too because he's been running all along the pitch all day. Tennis give the players breaks after every set.
Should we not allow players catch their breath after big rallies or reorientate themselves because the server wants to serve immediately he catches the ball?
They can always do a 10 second grace before service, then a warning, then penalties.
In tennis, this happens too, sometimes an umpire might accept a delay after a more taxing point before starting the clock. The main point here is that there needs to be more objectivity brought to the issue. A delay after an especially taxing and entertaining point is very different from what we see nowadays, where many players take forever to enter their playing stance and start a point, and it is becoming normalized to the point that we are now blaming people who are simply playing when they are ready for not waiting for the opponent to be ready. Tennis, obviously the richest of these sports, is using clocks at big events to improve pace of play. But even without clocks, it would help to address the issue.
And another one: 190 pts played in 1h03, decider game then. And this was after 15 days of World Championships cos' there was also the teams tournament at that time ! now it barely last 9 days, no teams event at the same time, man... If Waldner Saive and Gatien were still in their 30 nowadays, that would be too much easy for them...
Rankings are out now. Hayata moves up a spot to WR#5. Felix is at WR#9. Dima is at WR#8. LYJ down to WR#10. Next week, points from WTT Finals expire. This is huge for Tomo as has 1050 points from last year's WTT Finals. He still should remain in top 10, but on the lower end.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course you can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, you are moving the goal post
Foul play is not determined by the rules only, but also by the etiquette. So sorry, but you're nobody here to tell if we are or not allowed to talk about DIma's and other players behavior. because it's all about behaviors coming from other sports like tennis or football.
Just have a look at this: 2 guys in the world top 10 in 1991, one has been number 1 and world champion already at that time, see the pace of BOTH players in REAL TIME.
21 pts game, no time out, you have to wait 21 to get a water break, towel break each 5 pts. No bouncing, no hand raising, nothing. 159 points played in less than 45 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FQyJmBHok
THIS is good behavior and the right etiquette. Gatien is out of stamina at the end, that's why he makes a wrong serve. Peopple saying today's TT is way more physical tna 30 years ago or ignorant. I mean... I've played both systems, and todays 11pts is way easier physically speaking, you have a break wooner than before
It took 1 hour to Dima to loose that final 2 days ago with towel breaks each 6 and water breaks each 11 pts for... 146 pts only ! with more breaks than 30 years ago he needs to raise his hand, to bounce the ball, to fake a broken ball, man it's not soccer ! (as Nigel Owens would certainly tell him).
TT is going for worse nowadays with those wrong behaviors, Eurosport was airing big competitions until the covid, now since it's China controlling everything, no hidden serve is enforced because it's not ok for Ma Long and Wang Chuqin, no raising hands is enforced because it would not help the CNT, and now the big broadcasters do not care anymore for TT.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course you can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, it is moving the goal post
I don't view it as moving the goal posts at all. I have found Music&Ping's responses relevant, interesting, and add value to the discussion. Perhaps TT can learn a thing or two from the more successful sports. If you wanna play moderator, perhaps you should talk to Alex.
first of all I did not address Music & Ping in any post except today. Please go back and check the flow of the posts (don't say I want to be a moderator, i am just requesting the discussions to be on the same track) If you don't see it as moving the goal post then there is nothing further I can say to convince you. Thanks.
Tennis and Badminton are similar sports to TT in their make-up and the use of space, Is the serve and receive solely based on the server's will in these sports? Seems like the receiver has some say to me.
I watch badminton often and due to the nature of the long rallies, players are often breathless and they'll delay the server by a couple seconds to catch their breath. Even the server delays too because he's been running all along the pitch all day. Tennis give the players breaks after every set.
Should we not allow players catch their breath after big rallies or reorientate themselves because the server wants to serve immediately he catches the ball?
They can always do a 10 second grace before service, then a warning, then penalties.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course you can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, it is moving the goal post
I don't view it as moving the goal posts at all. I have found Music&Ping's responses relevant, interesting, and add value to the discussion. Perhaps TT can learn a thing or two from the more successful sports. If you wanna play moderator, perhaps you should talk to Alex.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
my request is based on the fact that we were discussing whether DIMA broke the rules by slow receiving. of course one can discuss what happens in other sports but as a direct response to the above discussion, it is moving the goal post
"11.4.1 The umpire may declare a let if the receiver or his or her partner is not ready " thanks for sheding little more light in an area where the rules are very unclear.
As with Harimoto's holler after scoring each point, or before each serve/receive (Japanese juniors, not just Harimoto, used to do that all the time and still a very common thing in Japan), I think quick serving, stalling, even "mildly" hidden serve are all part of the game. Just deal with it. Mizutani has mentioned dealing with gamesmanship of overseas players in a recent interview.
Broke sports deal with it. The rich sports realize they are selling fair competition and entertainment and find ways to enhance both with rule changes.
please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver
We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).
Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.
The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens
I am not French and as someone who has been accused of quick serving and having seen the efforts of lawn tennis to address the issue by using clocks at major events, I think anyone acting like it is a no-brainer either for or against the Lebruns is cutting the ITTF too much slack.
In my mind, there is absolutely no reason (other than an expectation not written anywhere that the server should wait for the receiver) why the server should wait for the receiver in a professional sport. At the very least, an umpire should declare the play started, as happens in most professional sports with bells and whistles. But in the absence of this, why should a server be forced to wait for a receiver? No one has explained this.
Once the umpire declares play started, there is no obligation to wait for the receiver. Pace of play is and should be determined by the server with some punishment for abusing this privilege with time wasting. But forcing a fast pace of play is and should be a weapon for the server and if the receiver is allowed to delay the server at will, it allows a lot of mind games. Receivers should be encouraged to get ready quickly and not to stall endlessly. And there is no reason other than etiquette why the receiver has to be elaborately ready. How long should the receiver be given? All of this is being left up to judgment when it should be addressed with rules.
I get there are different views on this in the absence of rules. But I cannot understand why anyone would take the high ground against the Lebruns especially given the epidemic of hidden and illegal serving which is also tied to these terrible rules.
Thanks for making it clear. In rugby also there's now the 30 seconds rule for transformation and penalties: when the kicker places the ball on the ground, he has 30 seconds to kick it. Also on line outs you can )play and pass to your team mate if there's not any opponent already in front of you, that's why you always see the opponents team rushing after they threw the ball outside. On penalties opponents have to step back for 10 meters, but you can also play the penalty without waiting them to step back ! it creates surprise, and it has greatly helped to make that sport more enjoyable for the viewers and followers.
Our sport would benefit from that. As you also said tennis has moved on also with 25 seconds/20 for grand slams events. With the court being smaller, a 10 seconds rule to me is ok as soon as the server takes the ball. The receiver must give it right away also, not making those bounces on the floor for 10 seconds before giving it to the server. That's why I prefer the multiball matches with ball boys/girls, it respects the server's pace.
Also for all the people out there saying that the Lebrun's should wait before serving: it's a clear no-no, they know they're fitter and have a stronger cardio than their opponents. Felix stated that his goal was clearly to asphyxiate Dima, as a consequence Dima was out of breath right after the 3rd game, that's why he foul played that much. He's even stronger than Hugo Calderano for that cardio: that match in the quarter final showed Calderano had not enough oxygene to clear his mind. It was a blitzkrieg by Felix: only 19 minutes ! it took an hour to make the final in contrast, way more time... because of Dima. He's too old and out of stamina too soon.
Recently a major french TV network went to Montpellier to film the Lebrun's training. After the casual warm -up, Jeremy Surault says "now it's 50 minutes cross-fit (he shows all the circuit on the board) and the idea is to NOT MAKE ANY BREAK during all 50 minutes. It will hurt a bit guys...".
As with Harimoto's holler after scoring each point, or before each serve/receive (Japanese juniors, not just Harimoto, used to do that all the time and still a very common thing in Japan), I think quick serving, stalling, even "mildly" hidden serve are all part of the game. Just deal with it. Mizutani has mentioned dealing with gamesmanship of overseas players in a recent interview.
According to the Statutes (replacing the term Handbook starting in 2023) and the Handbook for MATCH OFFICIALS, it's down to the umpire to decide "each rally as a point or a let" and whether the receiver is really ready or not.
2.5 DEFINITIONS 2.5.1 A rally is the period during which the ball is in play. 2.5.2 The ball is in play from the last moment at which it is stationary on the palm of the free hand before being intentionally projected in service until the rally is decided as a let or a point.
2.9 A LET 2.9.1 The rally shall be a let:
...
2.9.1.2 if the service is delivered when the receiving player or pair is not ready, provided that neither the receiver nor his or her partner attempts to strike the ball;
...
3.3 MATCH OFFICIALS
...
3.3.2 Umpire, Assistant Umpire, Stroke Counter and Table Tennis Review (TTR) official
...
3.3.2.3 The umpire shall be responsible for:
...
3.3.2.3.6 deciding each rally as a point or a let;
11.4 Unreadiness 11.4.1 The umpire may declare a let if the receiver or his or her partner is not ready, provided the receiver makes no attempt to return the ball. However, the fact that the receiver makes no stroke does not itself justify a let and the umpire must decide whether the receiver was really unready or, perhaps, merely unwilling to try to return what appeared to be a difficult service. Players should be encouraged to show when they are unready by raising a hand.
3.4.4.1 Play shall be continuous throughout an individual match except that any
player is entitled to:
3.4.4.1.1 an interval of up to 1 minute between successive games of an individual
match;
3.4.4.1.2 brief intervals for towelling after every 6 points from the start of each
game and at the change of ends in the last possible game of an individual
match.
To me, it is clearer that the sport is being played at the receiver's pace unless the umpire gives a warning. There should be a limited time after the server has declared intent for the receiver to get into position.
"3.4.4.1 Play shall be continuous throughout an individual match" this is not clear, what does continuous play mean in terms of time? even the Lebrun bros can't play continuously. "There should be a limited time after the server has declared intent for the receiver to get into position." there should be (then it will be clear) but there isn't, so Dima didn't go against the rules because this is upon the umpire to interprupt / enforce but there was no action. without further findings on the rules, I could say DIMA didn't commit any faults and neither did Lebrun (but did sidetracked from normal etiquette).
It's okay to play devil's advocate, it suits your posting style well. I have said everything you have written if you read what I already wrote, but it was long, so I can understand if you didn't read it. I also proposed my own solution. You have not proposed anything other that regurgitate what I have already written (which is that the ITTF needs to create clearer rules, just like other sports with similar historical vagueness have).
don't be so sensitive. I didn't quarrel with your post, on the contrary I took it at face value and just added my comments.
Since I am supposedly the sensitive one, what is your position on the issue? That because "continuous play" is open to interpretation, anything anyone does is reasonable unless the umpire rules against it?
I think it is unclear and open to interpretation unless there are guidelines that hasn't been shown here
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Topic: WTT Contender Antalya 2023, 10/16-22
BTW I think he was complaining about DIMA mostly
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