Haha I feel like this is a jab from AJ.  I wouldn't be surprised if Micheal sends some legal notice XD.  

I am glad to see that they found a way to make it work and TT is still going strong there.

Edited by stiltt - 01/17/2020 at 10:29am

Entry to the business is easy, but market is niche and tiny... fixed overhead expenses where there is any possible market is nearly cost-prohibitive.

The last place where the TTTC owner started out was similar business environment.

M.L. opened a 12-14 table facility with all red floor and decent lighting and lounge... had taken over a failed Gold's gym. That shoulda been a big warning sign. Dude knew hew pretty much had a year to get 100+ paying members and 20+ taking lessons to make it pay.

That facility he made was easily a top-notch place compared to majority of TT outfits. He had everything in place to make a club hopping - leagues, group lessons, kids camps, hosted world police/fire championships, private lessons, sanctioned tourneys...

He built it, but they didn't come in enough numbers fast enough. M.L. saw the rent figure when he initially opened the place, but didn't consider the other expenses that a Tennent pays... so his fixed overhead was approaching $10,000 a month. He had maybe 70+ members and 10+ taking lessons. It wasn't sustainable.

By the time he was in business there 6 months, he could really see the writing on the wall if the players didn't come. His facility was better than MD TTC in several ways, but critically lacked membership, market, and the big name coaches that drive membership/lessons.

M.L. did some things to increase the cash flow... Membership prices increased. He made some fees for certain things... without more members, it wasn't going to work... and by the time a few more months went by, it was clear that it wouldn't.

I had already paid an annual membership fee up front my first month I arrived and the club was defunct before the end of my membership. Once M.L. got back to private work and made some income, he paid back the remaining balance to me and other members who had annual membership that had time remaining.

This is a typical case of the business risk involved with opening a TT club in USA and why it is so difficult to make TT work in an urban area. If leasing or owning wasn't so ridiculous expensive, we would have way more opportunity for success.

When I got to Sacramento 3 yrs ago, a new Chinese led club opened up - CALTT.

It was a might dingy, poorly lit (bright/dark/bright right low over table)… too many table too tight together, difficult to see on the wall side of tables, glare... 8 table club.

Yet, there was a market. There were enough Chinese in the area that would take lessons from the 1700-ish LP niece of the owner. They had a dozen + kids take lessons, several adults taking lessons. 50+ members. 2500 SqFt facility. Probably cost $5,000 a month to operate. Had $100 a month membership including weekly group lessons or $60 a month.

She also hosted kid's study in day time.

Looked like owner made enough money to pay the niece a small salary and keep the club alive.

Club was maxed out on room, only way to make more money is to coach more kids and there is a limit to that in the local market for such a club.

Still, that club could have lasted, albeit with the conditions I described. No one in Sacramento had made and lasted as a full time club for decades.

When Sitta started to operate, they lost 20+ members... CALTT was over and that owner pulled out.

Those are the realities of attempting to make a simple business from TT in an urban area. Less urban areas have much lower fixed costs, but unless TT is a school sport or someone figures out how to get garage players to organize, you couldn't generate income enough for 1/2 the operating costs either.

The fixed costs in

BH-Man wrote: When I got to Sacramento 3 yrs ago, a new Chinese led club opened up - CALTT. It was a might dingy, poorly lit (bright/dark/bright right low over table)… too many table too tight together, difficult to see on the wall side of tables, glare... 8 table club. Yet, there was a market. There were enough Chinese in the area that would take lessons from the 1700-ish LP niece of the owner. They had a dozen + kids take lessons, several adults taking lessons. 50+ members. 2500 SqFt facility. Probably cost $5,000 a month to operate. Had $100 a month membership including weekly group lessons or $60 a month. She also hosted kid's study in day time. Looked like owner made enough money to pay the niece a small salary and keep the club alive. Club was maxed out on room, only way to make more money is to coach more kids and there is a limit to that in the local market for such a club. Still, that club could have lasted, albeit with the conditions I described. No one in Sacramento had made and lasted as a full time club for decades. When Sitta started to operate, they lost 20+ members... CALTT was over and that owner pulled out. Those are the realities of attempting to make a simple business from TT in an urban area. Less urban areas have much lower fixed costs, but unless TT is a school sport or someone figures out how to get garage players to organize, you couldn't generate income enough for 1/2 the operating costs either. The fixed costs in

Ieyasu wrote: Thanks for your detailed posts... although sad to read, it's all so true. Especially the above.  Cracks me-up.  I've heard complaints that one has to pay, at all.  Especially true about the senior market being a potentially huge one. Pickleball is cleaning up there. That sport can use outdoor parks and indoor community centers. Plus, no need for expensive tables that need to be cared for. I don't see how TT can ever be big in this country. So much going against it.

The senior community has a huge potential, even if the monthly membership fee is way less... if SITTA could get 100+ seniors there, it could pay. Propblem is, in urban areas, lots of seniors live in senior communities that already have infrastructure and are already organized... at least 2-3x a week for TT right in the neighborhood they live... some nearly every day.

That makes it tough for them to drive 5-30 miles just to do a few hrs of TT.

Michael Levene saw the potential of the organized social TT crowd - MEETUP was a deal to get interested social TTers into league. M.L. was successful in getting a dozen+ a week in league. I never saw a club get that crowd organized in any numbers. Sure, low 10s once a week is not a huge number, but it was a proper effort in the right direction. He was barking up the right tree, but it is difficult to attract players to the club with a bark or even dancing cheerleaders.

His go to tactics for tournaments was to increase entry fees, and lower prize money lol.  I have nooo clue why he wouldn't run cary cup, it's gotta be the biggest draw/profit the whole year tournaments wise.  

That's bad.  Didn't Cary Cup sell out well ahead of time every year?  Who designs an event where you lose money  even on a sellout?  No wonder the club has financial trouble, sheesh.

These giant round robins aren't appealing to me.  I'd rather pay $30 for a 3 hour event with 4-7 matches than $65 for an event that could be all day with 10+ matches.  Too old for that...

WeebleWobble wrote: These giant round robins aren't appealing to me.  I'd rather pay $30 for a 3 hour event with 4-7 matches than $65 for an event that could be all day with 10+ matches.  Too old for that...

This was regarding Cary Cup form Mike Babuin on FB:

Edited by Ttunderthesun21 - 01/23/2020 at 4:27pm

Thanks for updating. Wait for new announcement.

mycuzinvinny wrote: Outside of the US Open/Nationals/Hopes/Trials, what other tournaments require tourney pass/coach pass?  TTT has a $10 fee for non-player/spectator/coach to attend the tournament. https://www.omnipong.com/EntryForms/1075-49.pdf

Ttunderthesun21 wrote: This was regarding Cary Cup form Mike Babuin on FB: Cary Cup 2020 Ok...many of you are asking. Here is the story. As many of you know, for many reasons, I stepped back from CC for several years now after giving it life in 2002 and running it for many years.  I was very saddened to see it erode in 2016 into 'just another tournament' in my absence. When TTT transitioned to new ownership by Michael Levene in late 2018, the 2019 Cary Cup was already planned and sanctioned so in a sense, 'the horse had already left the gate' by 2018 for the 2019 Cary Cup. All in all it was still a decent tournament, but by my standards I wanted more.  So...this year, there is a high probability that we WILL have a Cary Cup bigger and better than ever before. However, it won't be happening in March. At present, we are looking at mid August. Exact dates to follow within two weeks.  While August is new for Cary Cup so too will be the name. I am rebranding this as the 'Americas Cup' to give the tournament a more National level title.  However, I am back and will be designing the tournament and running it. That means you can be assured that every attention to detail will follow and that GREAT prize money and trophies are back. My goal is to have a total purse of $30,000 and if that can be pulled off, it will be the largest Cary Cup EVER. As always you need to sign up for the tournament immediately because this will certainly fill up quickly.  Good news is...we are targeting events from Wednesday through Sunday - you can pick and choose what interests you as always.  I am grateful for Michael and Nina Levene, Jason, and everyone at Triangle for embracing this wonderful tournament, once again - and I guarantee that we will go all out this year to make it very memorable for everyone.  Please note that we will use the entire Triangle facility for the event.  More too follow in a couple of weeks.  Please spread this around so it gets distributed. Efforts are underway.

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Have you heard anything from Mike Babuin?

He said: "More too follow in a couple of weeks. "  It has been more than a couple of weeks.