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US open dec 17-22

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 9:08am
[. . . I am also not sure whether the past USATT tournament models should be the standard that needs to be continually emulated. . .]

I, too, am of a similar sentiment; appreciative of thought and deed striving to improve an administrative and organizational challenge, an excursion always fraught.

When a significant change like this is effected, my first thought is that there is an implicit problem the authors are aware of and attempting to address.  Patience does indeed have its reward, as we have just found out that "conflicts" is the major motivator here.  

By some factorial progression, conflicts rise in reflection of the number of events the participants enter.  This helps explain the popularity in the typical USATT tournament of the rating events basis, for the scale in these tournaments is far more manageable concerning conflict occurrence.  [In addition, the conflict problem is the basis of the significant decline in doubles events in typical USATT tournaments.]

My anticipation is that this new event schedule will greatly reduce the number of conflicts and, accepting conflict reduction as an objective of the tournament, success will be achieved.

The Noble Prize winning scientist Francis Crick famously stated: "If you want to understand function, study structure."  We have a case here.

Thanks.
Donn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 9:45am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but here are the age group options for a high level 13 year old - play elite events and bypass the mini cadets or bypass elite and only play mini cadet. For the non elite 15 year old - only under 20.

The text message alert is great, btw. I may go just for that alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttforlife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 10:13am
My largest concern is players getting knocked into a lower group than their real playing level in the Tiered Round Robin by someone who is super underrated, its bound to happen in many groups and now you have to spend the next two days playing lower level players.

Imagine unrated players visiting the US (maybe there wont be many) who don't play on Sunday and get stuck with the default 1000 rating, they could upset several people in the single group.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 11:31am
The online entry form isn't opening on my phone, so please forgive a stupid question -- is it $275 flat for all the events you can play? I didn't see that explained in either the prospectus or the FAQs.

And can rated players who aren't registered for the events still show up and play the seeding tournament on Sunday? I would do that for sure if it's just the drive and $15 parking fee. Who knows who you might play in that thing.

$275 may be a fair price for the quality of the event. I live an hour too far away from MCO to commute, and a week off work and $900+ (hotels and food) sounds steep. I can fly MIA to LIS and spend two weeks at TTPor for around $1200. This is the same issue I had with WVC. If I can go to europe and play full-time for close to the price of playing a tournament in Florida or Nevada I'm choosing europe. Maybe I'm weird that way.

Edited by BRS - 09/17/2018 at 11:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

The online entry form isn't opening on my phone, so please forgive a stupid question -- is it $275 flat for all the events you can play? I didn't see that explained in either the prospectus or the FAQs.

And can rated players who aren't registered for the events still show up and play the seeding tournament on Sunday? I would do that for sure if it's just the drive and $15 parking fee. Who knows who you might play in that thing.

$275 may be a fair price for the quality of the event. I live an hour too far away from MCO to commute, and a week off work and $900+ (hotels and food) sounds steep. I can fly MIA to LIS and spend two weeks at TTPor for around $1200. This is the same issue I had with WVC. If I can go to europe and play full-time for close to the price of playing a tournament in Florida or Nevada I'm choosing europe. Maybe I'm weird that way.
The online entry function is not available yet and it’s $275.00 whether you enter one event or multiple events. Plus the 275.00 is the early bird entry fee which the deadline is Octerber 26th.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 12:33pm
Yes you can play the ratings estimation event if you have a rating. Your results will NOT affect your rating and will NOT count towards your tournament results or USATT rating/seeding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 12:34pm
And by the way - EVERY court is matted, which has cost us a hefty sum...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

And by the way - EVERY court is matted, which has cost us a hefty sum...
Yes, but not get the emails from Ben about it, priceless! Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

Yes you can play the ratings estimation event if you have a rating. Your results will NOT affect your rating and will NOT count towards your tournament results or USATT rating/seeding.

Gordy, just wanted some clarification.  BRS asked about players "who aren't registered for the events" (not pay the $275/$350) but are rated and want to play in the ratings estimation event.  Your reply doesn't mention whether player has to be registered for the U.S. Open or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

Hello, all...I will try to catch up but I might miss some...


@osmar - your immediate conclusion that you are only going to play bad players I believe is misguided. Other than the first day, you will ONLY play in your "seeding bracket" (or division), so you should get a lot of quality matches in the tiered event alone. Then we separated the SE to a championship division in the age groups, so while you might get a lower rated player in the RR, once you move into the championship division you should be playing a higher level of player. 

In the past, let's say you played the U2400 and Open. That's a maximum of 6 matches guaranteed, and there is no guarantee in either of those events you would be playing as many people at or around your level. The whole concept behind the Tiered Ratings event is to get people playing more important matches - not just matches for the sake of playing matches.

Also @osmar if you really want to get into the elite division, you will notice that we change the qualification criteria so that you can be over 2400 at any time between October 1 and November 15 - that means you still have the opportunity to get in by qualification rating.



I am sure I missed some of the questions - so please feel free to ask again OR email me at [email protected]

Thanks

I did not mention anywhere about bad players I just said that it denied the opportunity for me to compete against elite players.
if i move into championship division I will still be playing not elite players but majority of whom below 2400. 

Not enough time to raise rating till november 15 by 100 points.
As I said earlier Open should imply to everyone and then if one wants to compete in lower division at his/her rating level  this is optional.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by clannewton clannewton wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

I dont like not to have a chance to play elite players. At NA north team I had that opportunity......
if 2400 is cut off does that imply that i will be playing in performance with all who below 2400? if it is a case no reason even participate

I guess it depends on what the folks who are eligible for Elite decide to do: highly rated veterans like He Zhi Wen, Dan Seemiller etc. - do they go after main prize or choose to play events in Performance division? 

still if some decide to pursue performance track there will be far And few between and i will will be playing low rated player, for me it is not not US open

Can I point out the irony that what you feel about playing "low rated players", The elite players may feel the same about playing you, so if the US Open is tailored for you, you may ruin the US Open experience for the elite players as they would have to play you, a "lower rated player".

I  dont mind playing lower rated players, there should be opportunity for everyone, it is about learning experience. there should be an option of choosing which division you want to play as it is in other rated tourneys, where open anf rating based divisons, you can play everything but mot in lower division.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 7:32pm
I was thinking for a bit about this new Elite vs. Performance split, especially as far as "you have to be this good to play in the Elite events".

1. In 2017 US Open there were 174 entries in the Open division. By my count, when you include people with ITTF ranking points, players with USATT>2400 and a bunch of people with zero rating who ended up somehow mostly winning their groups, including eventual Open champion - you get ~80 in total, so new rules would've eliminated more than half of past Elite event participants. Curious what is considered an optimal event size by organizers.  

2. Drawing a parallel with tournaments like US Open in Golf - having a qualification event(s) would've been an interesting angle. In golf you know what you need to do in order to qualify - and it's very tough, since you will be going against the pros. But - you still have a chance to get in. Perhaps have one on Sunday? Or have certain number of spots reserved for top finishers in other US tournaments that did not qualify otherwise?

3. The idea of 'everyone can play in US Open main event, just pay a fee and show up', was probably unsustainable  because of the scale (I suspect the same thing can be said about World Veterans Championship) - at some point you don't have enough time and/or tables, so then what - first 200 people to sign up? Feels kind of wrong...

4. If just making it to the US Open main event becomes an achievement in itself - this might create an extra motivation for people to reach a certain rating. Which could be a good thing with more participation in local tournaments - I suspect 'osmar92' now might have an extra incentive to play top events in local tournaments Wink. Or it might cause some shenanigans: "you dump this match to me, I get extra 50 points I need to qualify..." 

5. Still think that Elite players should have opportunity to play in Performance/Age events.

Would be interesting to see what happens - I kind of view this as US Open 'growing up' and trying to become more like other conventional ITTF events. Hope it stays different enough, though Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 8:57pm
Cryi'm bit confused 
my rating is 2100 and i'm over 40 
what events can i ply?

Cry
rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

Cryi'm bit confused 
my rating is 2100 and i'm over 40 
what events can i ply?

Cry
you can play over 40, over 30 singles and doubles. You can also do the tiered rating event in singles and doubles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 9:25pm
@pgpg now I am not sure if I should play us open caz I can play plenty high rated or anyone at Weschester club.I play open and have the opportunity to play 2600+ plaYERS as I played women us open champion 2645 rated competitively. The only reason for me to go to us open is not to have quantity but quality, to raise a bar and not to have "thousands mile on odometer"

Edited by osmar92 - 09/17/2018 at 9:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

@pgpg now I am not sure if I should play us open caz I can play plenty high rated or anyone at Weschester club.I play open and have the opportunity to play 2600+ plaYERS as I played women us open champion 2645 rated competitively. The only reason for me to go to us open is not to have quantity but quality, to raise a bar and not to have "thousands mile on odometer"

I totally understand - for someone in your position it might be easier (and cheaper) to play Open division at Westchester (and probably other NY/NJ tournaments) every month to get a crack at 2500+ players. Thanksgiving Teams too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 9:46pm
How exactly 3-day Super Giant Tiered Round Robin (tm) is supposed to work? I get how 2-day version works: your group placement on Day 1 determines your division for Day 2. What happens on Day 3, though? 

Let's say I finished 1st in my Division C RR group on Day 2. Do I get promoted to Division B for day 3 as a lowest seed there? Or is Division C simply re-seeded for Day 3 based on Day 2 results via snake ladder to get new better-matched RR groups? Feels like promotion/relegation might be useful to correct effects of unlucky draw on Day 1, for instance. Might make for more interesting competition on Day 2 too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2018 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

Cryi'm bit confused 
my rating is 2100 and i'm over 40 
what events can i ply?

Cry
you can play over 40, over 30 singles and doubles. You can also do the tiered rating event in singles and doubles.

thank you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 1:16am
I don't really like the new format for the following reasons:

1) Aspiring young players would have to make a very tough choice between the elite and performance tracks.  If they choose to play in the elite track, then they risk going out after playing only a few singles matches.  Given the cost (player/guardian plane tickets, hotel, entry fee, spectator fee), it may not be worth it anymore.  It would be "safer" for them to play in the performance track, but then they would miss the chance to have a shot to play the stronger kids who feel confident enough to go far in the elite track.

2) In the old rating-based event format, aspiring young players can play some events that they are competitive (i.e. will mostly play people around their level or lower), some events that are a bit above their level (i.e. will play people around their level or higher), and some events that are quite a bit above their level (i.e. will mostly play higher-level people).  I think that's a good system because it gives them a chance to compete to win, and at the same time give them a chance to experience playing higher-level people.  They will also play lower level people and in turn give those other people a chance to play someone higher-level, so it's fair.

3) If someone doesn't play well on the first day of the giant round-robin, they would be stuck playing two more round-robins in lower groups.  That could make it a rather unpleasant experience, and there will probably be a lot of defaults.

4) There's more excitement to win say the U-2000RR of the US Open.  It's an easily understandable achievement.  On the other hand, winning division 4c of the giant round-robin just doesn't have the same ring to it.

I think if elite players are allowed to play in the performance track as well, it would be a big help.  It's okay to still require some minimum rating level, but at least they won't risk spending a lot of money (> $1,000 for plane tickets, hotel, and entry fee) and ended up just playing a few singles matches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 3:12am
Just FYI for those driving so that you budget for it:

Parking charges are as follows, plus tax: (subject to change)

Self-Parking $15
Valet Parking $23

Self Parking
Price: $13 / Day

Valet Parking
Price: $22 / Day

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 3:24am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

Yes you can play the ratings estimation event if you have a rating. Your results will NOT affect your rating and will NOT count towards your tournament results or USATT rating/seeding.

Gordy, just wanted some clarification.  BRS asked about players "who aren't registered for the events" (not pay the $275/$350) but are rated and want to play in the ratings estimation event.  Your reply doesn't mention whether player has to be registered for the U.S. Open or not.

Gordy,

In addition to the above, do you have an ETA on the online entry?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Fountain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 3:52am
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

And by the way - EVERY court is matted, which has cost us a hefty sum...


While I don't know the relative cost, as a player it feels reasonable to expect a fully matted court for any premiere/national event - we have quite our own hefty sum with flights and hotel. It's really important, so props for that.

Triple RR seems okay and should work out for everyone that doesn't have a horrific day one. My favorite style is gated double RR such as "Over 1800 GRR" etc. as that gets you closer matches even on the first day/table.

I just saw how expensive flights are around this time. Yikes.





Edited by Eric Fountain - 09/18/2018 at 10:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 5:52am
Eric -

Not sure where you are flying from, but Tampa is not far and Sanford is close also. ONLY Allegiant flies to Sanford...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 6:00am
@pgpg Here is how the Tiered RR works:

1 - day one, A - F in each group of 6 based on ratings (PRODUCES DIVISIONS)
2 - day 2, RR groups of 6 based on order of finish day 1 (PRODUCES A - F IN EACH DIVISION)
3 - day 3, RR groups of 6 based on order of finish day 2 

Then SE for the top finishers in each Division group A will play an SE for the champion of the division.

So let's just say, for example:

I come out as the top player in my Monday group. I am in Division I.
Then I come out as the top player in my Tuesday group. I am then in Division IA
THen I come out as the top player in my Wednesday group. I am then the winner of my Division iA group and will play in an SE with the other division iA groups. Only the "A" group winners will play SE.
 


Edited by Gordy - 09/18/2018 at 8:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 9:07am
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:

@pgpg Here is how the Tiered RR works:

1 - day one, A - F in each group of 6 based on ratings (PRODUCES DIVISIONS)
2 - day 2, RR groups of 6 based on order of finish day 1 (PRODUCES A - F IN EACH DIVISION)
3 - day 3, RR groups of 6 based on order of finish day 2 

Then SE for the top finishers in each Division group A will play an SE for the champion of the division.

So let's just say, for example:

I come out as the top player in my Monday group. I am in Division I.
Then I come out as the top player in my Tuesday group. I am then in Division IA
THen I come out as the top player in my Wednesday group. I am then the winner of my Division iA group and will play in an SE with the other division iA groups. Only the "A" group winners will play SE.
 

Thanks for clarification. Let's see how it works out  - one small concern I have is that folks outside of A groups on Day 3 don't have much to play for, since you are eliminated from contention by then. Will be interesting to look at default/no-show rates - even some of Day 2 matches can become meaningless once you get a single loss. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 9:19am
I think it will be interesting also...but this comes down to the "do I have a chance to win something" vs. "do I want to compete in more matches." If you step back and think about it, even when we were playing "traditional" rated events, very few people had a chance to actually "win something." 

This new approach actually (in a way) gives you a chance to "win something" every day...

Also in a group of 6 a single loss doesn't always knock you out - not as significant as in a group of 4.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 11:14am
It seems the only way for me to understand the new format is to participate in it. That's what's motivating me to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 12:23pm
With the kids mixed with adults again are we going to see lots of underrated kids picking up 200+ points in that first RR.


If underrated by 200 pts player could get 12 matches (in all 3 RR's) with players about his playing level but rated 200 more than him. If they just split 50-50 that could be 6x50 = 300 ratings points. If they come in as 400 rating, but play around 1600, who knows how many points they could get.


Mark

Edited by mjamja - 09/18/2018 at 6:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 6:45pm
anyone,,

how does one get to Disney World theme park from table tennis venue?


Edited by osmar92 - 09/18/2018 at 6:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2018 at 9:40pm
Uber. It’s about 10-12 minutes. There is a link in both the FAQ and Prospectus for discounted tickets.

Thnx
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