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USATT Biggest Rating Jump Ever?

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tabletenischicagocom View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01/17/2020 at 6:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 7:08pm
Obviously some great coaching to get that kind of improvement in such a short time.

Maybe I should try to get lessons from his coach so I can break 2000.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingPongPom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 7:18pm
I can give you the same advice it's easy. All you need to do is get to 2500-2600 level first, and then make sure you lose to players under 800 when you are getting your first rating calculation right before the US Open, and then BAM.

Either that or get a halloween costume and dress up as a sandbag :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 7:25pm
maybe the 800 player he lost to was another sandbagger. the great news here is that they system is not totally broken since his rating was adjusted 415 -> 1908 to better calculate his opponent rating changes.

Edited by Dream1700 - 01/17/2020 at 7:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 7:38pm
Isn't this the guy who recently got caught at the USO, and came up in a recent thread?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 7:41pm
Imagine having to say this to your spouse: "Lost to a 415 today but he is actually 2600 strength!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leftstudio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 7:45pm
The ITTF f**ked him up good. He got caught by dumping points to play lower events to get that cash. Now they adjusted his rating, he can only play the Open. 
Welldone, ITTF. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Leftstudio Leftstudio wrote:

The ITTF f**ked him up good. He got caught by dumping points to play lower events to get that cash. Now they adjusted his rating, he can only play the Open. 
Welldone, ITTF. 
======================

What the Original Post has anything to do with ITTF?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2020 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by PingPongPom PingPongPom wrote:

I can give you the same advice it's easy. All you need to do is get to 2500-2600 level first, and then make sure you lose to players under 800 when you are getting your first rating calculation right before the US Open, and then BAM.

Either that or get a halloween costume and dress up as a sandbag :)


Dress up like a SANDBAG.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leftstudio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 4:13am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by Leftstudio Leftstudio wrote:

The ITTF f**ked him up good. He got caught by dumping points to play lower events to get that cash. Now they adjusted his rating, he can only play the Open. 
Welldone, ITTF. 
======================

What the Original Post has anything to do with ITTF?
That adjustment was not a mistake. They did it so he won’t be able to play those events for money. 
Everybody boosts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skynet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 6:29am
Is this sandbagger also suspended because of his cheating or did they only adjust his rating in order to make it more difficult for him to earn easy money?


Edited by Skynet - 01/18/2020 at 6:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 7:47am
Originally posted by Leftstudio Leftstudio wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by Leftstudio Leftstudio wrote:

The ITTF f**ked him up good. He got caught by dumping points to play lower events to get that cash. Now they adjusted his rating, he can only play the Open. 
Welldone, ITTF. 
======================
What the Original Post has anything to do with ITTF?
That adjustment was not a mistake. They did it so he won’t be able to play those events for money. 
===================

Apparently you still don't get it.
It has nothing to do with ITTF, it has everything to do with USATT.
(Most forummers here know this.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leftstudio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 9:50am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by Leftstudio Leftstudio wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by Leftstudio Leftstudio wrote:

The ITTF f**ked him up good. He got caught by dumping points to play lower events to get that cash. Now they adjusted his rating, he can only play the Open. 
Welldone, ITTF. 
======================
What the Original Post has anything to do with ITTF?
That adjustment was not a mistake. They did it so he won’t be able to play those events for money. 
===================

Apparently you still don't get it.
It has nothing to do with ITTF, it has everything to do with USATT.
(Most forummers here know this.)
you are right. 
I MEANT THE USATT - my bad. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 9:52am
As far as I know, Ma Long has no USATT rating. What about starting a go fund me page to send Ma Long to local USATT tournament and have him lose to every player under 300? Later, have Ma Long win the US Open and lets see how much he gets adjusted. 
A masseuse practicing social distancing rubs me the wrong way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pitigoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 10:24am
How can one get 2600+ rating when his biggest win was 2440?
He lost all the matches to 2500+ players. This is wrong IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 10:30am
I would have thought that the effort involved in getting this good at table tennis (in particular the discipline, nurturing environment and routine) would have also instilled just enough intelligence and decency in a person so that they would have realised that this type of scam is both a waste of time and not the sort of person one wants to be.

And, as was said in other posts about this issue: There should be no significant prize money in ratings events. Otherwise you open the system up to abuse of this kind. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Leftstudio Leftstudio wrote:

The ITTF f**ked him up good. He got caught by dumping points to play lower events to get that cash. Now they adjusted his rating, he can only play the Open. 
Welldone, ITTF. 

I don't believe there was enough cash in the events he entered to offset his entry fees.  I will blame his club as much as him for this scam.  The club aided in the scam.  If they pulled off the scam the club could brag that they have a 5 time Open champion training at their club.  Probably also get local TV coverage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leftstudio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 2:33pm
deleted

Edited by Leftstudio - 01/18/2020 at 2:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by pitigoi pitigoi wrote:

How can one get 2600+ rating when his biggest win was 2440?
He lost all the matches to 2500+ players. This is wrong IMO.

The final pass of the algorithm is basic +pts for wins and -pts for losses. Because he was adjusted to 1908, he gained enough points to get over 2600. Had he been adjusted to 2300, he would've come out much lower. The ratings algorithm can't handle every exceptional or absurd case that well. His USATT rating is 2616 and his integrity rating is less than 415.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 3:57pm
All he has to do is dump a few of these points to the lower-rated players he started this mess with.  Their  adjustment upwards and inability to compete for a while will be their punishment.

Edited by NextLevel - 01/18/2020 at 3:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pitigoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2020 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by pitigoi pitigoi wrote:

How can one get 2600+ rating when his biggest win was 2440?
He lost all the matches to 2500+ players. This is wrong IMO.


The final pass of the algorithm is basic +pts for wins and -pts for losses. Because he was adjusted to 1908, he gained enough points to get over 2600. Had he been adjusted to 2300, he would've come out much lower. The ratings algorithm can't handle every exceptional or absurd case that well. His USATT rating is 2616 and his integrity rating is less than 415.


The algorithm can easily be improved. It should adjust the rating after every match, like chess.com. So he starts at 1908, gains 50 for the first victory, but then he starts gaining less and less, and when he reaches 2500 he starts losing points. Ends with circa 2440, close to his true level. One exceptional case handled.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2020 at 12:52am
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

I would have thought that the effort involved in getting this good at table tennis (in particular the discipline, nurturing environment and routine) would have also instilled just enough intelligence and decency in a person so that they would have realised that this type of scam is both a waste of time and not the sort of person one wants to be.


My experience watching players and being a tournament director has made it clear that it just isn't that simple.

I wonder how upset the players in his RR rated events got?  That's the crap that really bugs me about this kind of obvious manipulation.  People travel long distances and have no chance of advancing from a single elimination round robin because of this kind of crappy behavior. 

I notice that he didn't end up playing in the U-1800 or U-2200 finals.  Or at least the results aren't posted. Did they disqualify him before the finals?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2020 at 12:55am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:


I don't believe there was enough cash in the events he entered to offset his entry fees.  I will blame his club as much as him for this scam.  The club aided in the scam.  If they pulled off the scam the club could brag that they have a 5 time Open champion training at their club.  Probably also get local TV coverage.

Don't be so quick to blame the club.  I tried to do something about a similar (but not as extreme) situation, but was told by the USATT that there was nothing to be done.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2020 at 8:36am
It seems his intentions were to sweep several events from 1800 and up. But why get such a low rating by losing to several under 800 players in his first tournament instead of losing to several in the 1600-1800 range? Here's a possible answer. He got adjusted to 1908 and all those +50 wins in the final pass of the ratings algorithm allows him to boast a 2616 rating. Had he manipulated his rating to, say, 1750 with the same US Open results he would've been adjusted to something well over 2000 and he'd come out 2300-2400. He may be an evil genius who figured this out. So last month when I and others questioned why get rated so low, maybe it was because he wanted to be rated so high.
A masseuse practicing social distancing rubs me the wrong way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejprinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2020 at 9:29am
While this is a big jump in ratings, I would say it can happen, without assuming bad intentions. The first rating in USATT can be based on a few matches in a tournament, and there are some 800 level players who may be 1500 or higher by the time they play and on a bad day one can loose to them (happened to me last weekend). Also people who haven't played in a while can take a hit initially but get better very quickly once training again. I've seen this myself, I was 977 before the US Open (after 9 months of playing again, not having played for 40 years) but only based on one tournament, and got raised to 1300 after the US Open which I think overshot my "real" strength a little bit. But this will dial itself in if I play more tournaments. I agree that adjusting after each game would be good but it is not practical for a tournaments. I've seen pretty wide spread vs. ratings based on personal circumstances in the games I played so far.
So I do say that if one has played as a teenager the progress can be very very rapid at least up to say 1500, with the right motivation (I can now play 4 hours/day mainly to loose weight since the kids are out of the house).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2020 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by ejprinz ejprinz wrote:

While this is a big jump in ratings, I would say it can happen, without assuming bad intentions.  

lol. A 2400 could have his playing arm amputated and still not lose 6 matches in a row to players under 800.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2020 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Dream1700 Dream1700 wrote:

Imagine having to say this to your spouse: "Lost to a 415 today but he is actually 2600 strength!"

Post of the year for 2020. Game over. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2020 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by ejprinz ejprinz wrote:

While this is a big jump in ratings, I would say it can happen, without assuming bad intentions. ...

Yes, it is possible but super unlikely.  I played a guy in the semi-finals of the U-1900 one year who was seriously underrated.  There was no indication that his low rating was due to bad intentions.  He won all of the matches in his first tournament.  He just didn't play anybody of high enough level.  I think he was rated at around 1400 or so but was clearly a 2100-ish player.

But regardless, the evidence in this most recent case was that this fellow lost matches against low level players intentionally.



Edited by wturber - 01/20/2020 at 1:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2020 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by Dream1700 Dream1700 wrote:

Imagine having to say this to your spouse: "Lost to a 415 today but he is actually 2600 strength!"

Player: "Lost to a 415 today but he is actually 2600 strength!"

Spouse: "That's nice dear.  Would you take out the trash?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cio4you Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2020 at 2:00pm
I heard he was asked to step down in those rated events by Virginia Sung when it was brought to her attention by Samson Dubina and possibly Larry Hodges. The day before I complained to the head of ratings for the USATT Ethan on behalf of a friend who got knocked-out by him he had a very good chance of wining the U-1800 which he was entered. He took me to talk to the tournament referee who said at the time that there was nothing that could be done that it was ethics issue. This proved not to be the case  when it was brought to Virginia's attention by higher profile people. He is realistically as mentioned about 2400-2450.

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