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Usatt Rating (Does this rating look correct)

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    Posted: 02/05/2019 at 12:36pm
Recently I played tournament and I don't think my after tournament rating is correct, but upon contacting USATT they said it is correct.
 
I was 2072 before tournament
 
I win with 2186 & 2339, loosing to 2550 player. (so 3 matches total 2 wins and 1 loss).
 
Based on this I received 25pts for (2186 player) & 50 pts (for 2339 player).
 
I was looking at the confusing explanation on USATT on how rating are calculated, but I was thinking since I earned more than 75pts I should get higher adjustment and be close to 2280 pts after tournament, instead my rating is 2200 after tournament. Sleepy
 
Does this sounds correct? Can anyone pitch in two cents..
thx
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 12:57pm
I think adjustments process kicks in if points gained are above 75, but don't have exact threshold. I saw several weird examples lately, so may be they are tweaking it or there is a bug somewhere...

Nice wins, btw!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

Recently I played tournament and I don't think my after tournament rating is correct, but upon contacting USATT they said it is correct.
 
I was 2072 before tournament
 
I win with 2186 & 2339, loosing to 2550 player. (so 3 matches total 2 wins and 1 loss).
 
Based on this I received 25pts for (2186 player) & 50 pts (for 2339 player).
 
I was looking at the confusing explanation on USATT on how rating are calculated, but I was thinking since I earned more than 75pts I should get higher adjustment and be close to 2280 pts after tournament, instead my rating is 2200 after tournament. Sleepy
 
Does this sounds correct? Can anyone pitch in two cents..
thx
You were adjusted from 2072 to 2147 then finished with the 2200 end rating
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 1:04pm
I disagree. Should be 2199.

Starting rating = 2072
Pass 1
2186 (114 above): +25
2339 (267 above): +50
2550 (478 above): -0
Adjusted rating = 2147

Final Pass
2186 (39 above): +12
2339 (192 above): +40
2550 (403 above): -0
Final rating = 2199


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

I disagree. Should be 2199.

Starting rating = 2072
Pass 1
2186 (114 above): +25
2339 (267 above): +50
2550 (478 above): -0
Adjusted rating = 2147

Final Pass
2186 (39 above): +12
2339 (192 above): +40
2550 (403 above): -0
Final rating = 2199


38-62 point differential is 13 points for the lower rated player. So it would be 13 and 2200 would be correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

I disagree. Should be 2199.

Starting rating = 2072
Pass 1
2186 (114 above): +25
2339 (267 above): +50
2550 (478 above): -0
Adjusted rating = 2147

Final Pass
2186 (39 above): +12
2339 (192 above): +40
2550 (403 above): -0
Final rating = 2199


38-62 point differential is 13 points for the lower rated player. So it would be 13 and 2200 would be correct.

Thanks for the correction. (I did it without looking at the chart)
We need to build a ball to keep the illegal servers from entering our tournaments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 1:58pm
it looks like they did the pass 1 adjustment which is adding the points gained to your rating and made that your adjusted rated and reran the results. But it does say for 75 points gain it supposed to get a Pass2 adjustment. If you think they messed up email Ethan Figge at usatt and give him the information and have him look into it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 2:05pm
I have heard (unofficially) that they don't do round (00) numbers, because it causes confusion as to which event you can enter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 2:19pm
There are actually 2 different adjustment formulas used at the end of pass 1.  If you gain 75-99 points they take your initial rating and just add those points to it to get your adjusted rating for pass 2.  If you gain 100 or more points in pass 1, they use that complicated formula that averages your initial rating with ((worst loss - best win)/2).  

Since you only gained 75 points you did not get the bigger jump that would have come wirh averaging in that 2550 as your worst loss.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 3:14pm
I thought if you gained 50 - 74 points they add that to your initial rating.  If you gain 75 + points, which you did, they average the adjusted rating with your old rating.  I guess it's theoretically possible your final rating would be higher if you gained one less point raw, 74. I'm too lazy to do the math.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 3:30pm
The adjusted rating for 75 or more rating points is calculated this way:

Pass 1 result (2147) plus (best wing + worst loss / 2)
then divide the result by 2. This would result in 2296 adjusted rating and then re-apply wins and losses.
However, the adjustment process is based on your opponents PRE ADJUSTMENT RATING. 
So, if one of the 2 players that you beat also got adjusted, the points you gained for pass 1 may have been below the 75 point threshold, so you only got a "small" adjustment..



Edited by Pushblocker - 02/05/2019 at 3:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

I have heard (unofficially) that they don't do round (00) numbers, because it causes confusion as to which event you can enter.


Ok, I am mistaken, perhaps that was an old rule. I just downloaded the list and there are plenty of "00" people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2019 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

I thought if you gained 50 - 74 points they add that to your initial rating.  If you gain 75 + points, which you did, they average the adjusted rating with your old rating.  I guess it's theoretically possible your final rating would be higher if you gained one less point raw, 74. I'm too lazy to do the math.

My memory was 74 or less and no adjustment for pass2.  75-99 just add points gained as adjustment.  Then 100 and over they used the averaging formula.  I did not go and look at current rules on website so I could be wrong.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 6:42am
I looked up the match and made the calculation.. Based on my understanding of the rating system, you should have ended up at 2320...

(Pass1 result (2147) + (best win + worst loss / 2)) / 2
(2147 +((2598 + 2339) / 2)) / 2 = 2307.25 (2307 adjusted rating)
Then you would have gained 10 points against the 2337 and 3 points against the 2186... 2320 total

Maybe they changed the "big adjustment" threshold to 76???


Edited by Pushblocker - 02/06/2019 at 6:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 8:04am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I looked up the match and made the calculation.. Based on my understanding of the rating system, you should have ended up at 2320...

(Pass1 result (2147) + (best win + worst loss / 2)) / 2
(2147 +((2598 + 2339) / 2)) / 2 = 2307.25 (2307 adjusted rating)
Then you would have gained 10 points against the 2337 and 3 points against the 2186... 2320 total

Maybe they changed the "big adjustment" threshold to 76???
Since the point gain is at least 75 from the initial calculation, you need to use the PASS2 calculation which is what heavyspin did above with slight correction by Vince64.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 8:20am
As much as I enjoy calculating numbers, I hope most here would agree that it would be more interesting to learn what the OP did in his match to beat the 2339 opponent.

Edited by heavyspin - 02/06/2019 at 8:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taczkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 9:29am
I stayed focused and played well, where as my opponent was not used to my type of play and had difficulties with heavy side spin.
 
As far as rating I agree with pushblocker it should be somewhere closer to 2300... but oh well. I already contacted USATT and my after tournament rating is correct based on the ALGORITHMS they use (which they keep as a secret) <--- I simply don't get this, they should have a formula or a software, calculator on their website any player can simply go in plug the numbers and see if mistake was made or not... I find this process they currently have as shady, not always fair and very hard to understand... My last tournament can be used as example... I am happy with 2200 despite how Rating system works lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 9:37am
Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

I stayed focused and played well, where as my opponent was not used to my type of play and had difficulties with heavy side spin.
 
As far as rating I agree with pushblocker it should be somewhere closer to 2300... but oh well. I already contacted USATT and my after tournament rating is correct based on the ALGORITHMS they use (which they keep as a secret) <--- I simply don't get this, they should have a formula or a software, calculator on their website any player can simply go in plug the numbers and see if mistake was made or not... I find this process they currently have as shady, not always fair and very hard to understand... My last tournament can be used as example... I am happy with 2200 despite how Rating system works lol

Great wins regardless of rating.  BTW, the USATT Ratings is no secret:  Ratings System Explanation


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taczkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 12:53pm

Well you are correct the rules are online, but if you actually plug them in to my scenario... then the rating they gave me is incorrect. So i called usatt and they told me that based on their Algorithhms (i quote "not available to anyone outside usatt") my rating 2200 is correct. Then i tried to ask for explanation in regards to their rule of LARGER adjustment (when player gains 75pts plus) which i did...

Anyhow, if try for yourself and calculate my rating see if the explanation online will work with my case...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

Well you are correct the rules are online, but if you actually plug them in to my scenario... then the rating they gave me is incorrect. So i called usatt and they told me that based on their Algorithhms (i quote "not available to anyone outside usatt") my rating 2200 is correct. Then i tried to ask for explanation in regards to their rule of LARGER adjustment (when player gains 75pts plus) which i did...

Anyhow, if try for yourself and calculate my rating see if the explanation online will work with my case...
If you look at heavyspin's calculations above (and substitute +13 for the +12), which uses that ratings algorithm used in the link, it correctly comes out to 2200.  So correctly plugging the numbers in does yield 2200.  Not sure why you think it's not correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 1:24pm
It seems that rating readjustments are not set in stone.  In my last tournament I scored 50 points, was not adjusted, called the USATT then was adjusted, then after years of inactivity my rating was lowered to my pre-phone call rating for some reason.  At a recent large tournament a lady over 2500 scored 50+ points and was not even given a pass2.  They just gave her the points she won and that was that.  I could give other examples as well but the moral of the story is sometimes you get readjusted and sometimes you don't.  Who knows why....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

It seems that rating readjustments are not set in stone.  In my last tournament I scored 50 points, was not adjusted, called the USATT then was adjusted, then after years of inactivity my rating was lowered to my pre-phone call rating for some reason.  At a recent large tournament a lady over 2500 scored 50+ points and was not even given a pass2.  They just gave her the points she won and that was that.  I could give other examples as well but the moral of the story is sometimes you get readjusted and sometimes you don't.  Who knows why....
50+ points falls under PASS1. Is it possible that using the pass1 adjustment that she might have ended lower than using a non-adjusted rating?  I vaguely recall there being some issue with that so it was more beneficial to the player to use the non-adjusted rating, but I could be wrong.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:15pm
  • "If the player has wins and losses, the Adjusted Rating is derived by taking the average of the player’s Pre-Tournament Rating, and the average of the player’s best win and worst loss."
Above is the rule stated in the linked site for pass 2 which happens if there are 75 points or more gained in pass 1.  If I understand it correctly the calculation is (2072+(2550+2339)/2)/2 = 2258
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:21pm
but if my applcation is right then the rule does not make sense, because instead of his worst loss was to a 2550 player it was to a 2800 player his pass 2 adjustment would have yield him a much higher rating.  a loss is a loss - why would losing to a higher rated player give you higher points than if you lost to a less higher rated player?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:30pm
[QUOTE=tom]deleted

Edited by Vince64 - 02/06/2019 at 2:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

but if my applcation is right then the rule does not make sense, because instead of his worst loss was to a 2550 player it was to a 2800 player his pass 2 adjustment would have yield him a much higher rating.  a loss is a loss - why would losing to a higher rated player give you higher points than if you lost to a less higher rated player?
Where are you coming up with a loss to a 2800 player? The OP played 3 matches. He beat 2186 and 2339 and lost to 2550. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

but if my applcation is right then the rule does not make sense, because instead of his worst loss was to a 2550 player it was to a 2800 player his pass 2 adjustment would have yield him a much higher rating.  a loss is a loss - why would losing to a higher rated player give you higher points than if you lost to a less higher rated player?
Where are you coming up with a loss to a 2800 player? The OP played 3 matches. He beat 2186 and 2339 and lost to 2550. 
I think he's speaking hypothetically.  Why should your rating increase when losing to a 2550 vs. losing to a 2800?  That's a good point.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

but if my applcation is right then the rule does not make sense, because instead of his worst loss was to a 2550 player it was to a 2800 player his pass 2 adjustment would have yield him a much higher rating.  a loss is a loss - why would losing to a higher rated player give you higher points than if you lost to a less higher rated player?
Where are you coming up with a loss to a 2800 player? The OP played 3 matches. He beat 2186 and 2339 and lost to 2550. 
  I was saying that if he had  lost to a 2800 player (which didn't happen) instead of 2550 then my application of the rule would have yield a higher rating (which does not make sense to me). also see pongfu's remark.

Edited by tom - 02/06/2019 at 2:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

but if my applcation is right then the rule does not make sense, because instead of his worst loss was to a 2550 player it was to a 2800 player his pass 2 adjustment would have yield him a much higher rating.  a loss is a loss - why would losing to a higher rated player give you higher points than if you lost to a less higher rated player?
Where are you coming up with a loss to a 2800 player? The OP played 3 matches. He beat 2186 and 2339 and lost to 2550. 
I think he's speaking hypothetically.  Why should your rating increase when losing to a 2550 vs. losing to a 2800?  That's a good point.  
Pongfu, you are at an even 1000 points.  If I were you I would never post again just to keep it at that special #
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:45pm
The USATT ratings system explanation has got to be either incomplete or out of date.
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