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Usatt Rating (Does this rating look correct)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2019 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Gordy Gordy wrote:


2257 + 16 + 5 = 2278 should be the final rating.

Of course I can't look "behind the scenes," but the data shows this is what it should be. It is possible I am missing something...

@Gordon, Is this calculation based on proprietary USATT software or just by hand? I found this case and his official rating currently stays at 2200. But your calculation agrees with official USATT rating explanation. My tests told me current USATT software uses first pass rating rather than the pre-tournament rating in calculating average for >= 75 points. I also confirm that they use pre-tournament rating to calculating rating changes. (OP should tell us earlier the lost opponent is 2545)  The issue is OP has exactly 75 points rating changes. In coding wise, it is easily understood because it triggers the boundary case.  

OP, if you have any rating changes, please update. We are very interested to see final corrected results. If not, USATT needs to update rating explanation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 4:03am
@mentor - I did this in excel (I created a spreadsheet a few years ago to check issues like this), so no it is not "official". I am not with USATT anymore so I don't have access to the back-end of the processor.

I have to admit (sorry) I am a bit confused about your tests and the "passes," which is confusing in and of itself. I do know that the "official" processor uses pre-tournament ratings to calculate post-PASS1 adjustments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 7:03am
Gordy, look at my calculation for the 1673 player in the SAME tournament who gained 80 points. My calculation is 100% accurate for his and any other calculation I have made for adjustments for 75+ points.

As I said before, pass 1 gain is determined by using the players initial rating and  adding and subtracting points based on the opponents pre-adjustment ratings.
If the points gained are above 75, this calculation is being used for sure (as I proved in an earlier post)

(Pass 1 rating + ((best win + worst loss / 2)) / 2

This has been the calculation since I joined the USATT over 19 years ago.. This formula used to be posted on the USATT webpage and if you look at ajustments at 75 points or higher, this is the formula that has been used.  For whatever reason, it was not used in the OP's case. Maybe they changed the threshold to 76 points?? As I pointed out, a player who gained 80 points in the same tournament got his adjustment based on the formula I posted..


Edited by Pushblocker - 02/08/2019 at 7:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taczkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 7:45am

After sending out an email yesterday, asking to compare why my rating changed differently than the player I mentioned in the earlier post here is a reply I got from USATT: "...as I have said previously your rating is correct. If you would like you can submit a claim to the Tournament Action Committee..."

Please keep in mind USATT did not provide to me any way of submitting claim (website link, online claim form, email etc). I did not receive a single explanation, to my question asking why other player was adjusted in totally different manner then me.
 
Sounds to me like "Tournament Action Committee" is sort of a secret society that no one knows of their existence, hope I am safe by letting you guys know such group of ppl exists.... lolLOL
 
Thank you everyone for pitching in some good points, example etc. Definitely I wish they rating process/formula could be available to everyone, so that everyone can spot a an error and address it with USATT without any questions etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 8:08am
Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

After sending out an email yesterday, asking to compare why my rating changed differently than the player I mentioned in the earlier post here is a reply I got from USATT: "...as I have said previously your rating is correct. If you would like you can submit a claim to the Tournament Action Committee..."

Please keep in mind USATT did not provide to me any way of submitting claim (website link, online claim form, email etc). I did not receive a single explanation, to my question asking why other player was adjusted in totally different manner then me.
 
Sounds to me like "Tournament Action Committee" is sort of a secret society that no one knows of their existence, hope I am safe by letting you guys know such group of ppl exists.... lolLOL
 
Thank you everyone for pitching in some good points, example etc. Definitely I wish they rating process/formula could be available to everyone, so that everyone can spot a an error and address it with USATT without any questions etc.

Can I assume you emailed Ethan Figge ([email protected])? He's listed in the USATT directory as "Director of Ratings, Membership and Database Management".  Hopefully, you get your results corrected.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 8:10am
100 percent with Pushblocker. If not him, I never understand how adjust process works. I believe software using 76 points rather than 75 points to do big adjustment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 9:40am
We have a mystery on our hands.  What could have happened?

1) The minimum threshold for big gain was increased.  If so, who authorized this and why?
2) There is a bug on the backend in the calculation right at the published boundary, 75.
3) The algorithm was modified to use no adjustment if worst loss player has a significantly higher rating than best win.
4) taczkid pissed off someone who has access to the USATT database or directed someone to hack into it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 10:23am
Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

100 percent with Pushblocker. If not him, I never understand how adjust process works. I believe software using 76 points rather than 75 points to do big adjustment.
The only change to the rating processing that I can ever remember was the chance from OVER 50 points for a small adjustment changing to 50 points, so the required points for an adjustment went from 51 to 50. Other than that, I'm not aware of any changes to the system. How ratings processing works should be transparent. The USATT website still mentions 75 points, so, if they changed it to 76 points, it would be inconsistent with what their website says..


Edited by Pushblocker - 02/08/2019 at 10:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 10:25am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

We have a mystery on our hands.  What could have happened?

1) The minimum threshold for big gain was increased.  If so, who authorized this and why?
2) There is a bug on the backend in the calculation right at the published boundary, 75.
3) The algorithm was modified to use no adjustment if worst loss player has a significantly higher rating than best win.
4) taczkid pissed off someone who has access to the USATT database or directed someone to hack into it.


Would be nice if USATT would explain what happened..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 10:50am
Since I got new information for this player, I rerun code (with >= 75 rating change)

Old rating is  2072
Begin pass1
1 2072 2339 50
2 2072 2186 25
3 2072 2545 0
Adjust Scenario 2 is  2294
Begin pass2
1 2294 2339 13
2 2294 2186 4
3 2294 2596 0
New rating is  2311


If with > 75 rating change, it will be current USATT rating 2200

Old rating is  2072
Begin pass1
1 2072 2339 50
2 2072 2186 25
3 2072 2545 0
Adjust Scenario 1 is  2147
Begin pass2
1 2147 2339 40
2 2147 2186 13
3 2147 2596 0
New rating is  2200

Note: Scenario 1 is small adjustment (50-74). Scenario 2 is big adjustment (75+)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 11:03am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

We have a mystery on our hands.  What could have happened?

1) The minimum threshold for big gain was increased.  If so, who authorized this and why?
2) There is a bug on the backend in the calculation right at the published boundary, 75.
3) The algorithm was modified to use no adjustment if worst loss player has a significantly higher rating than best win.
4) taczkid pissed off someone who has access to the USATT database or directed someone to hack into it.


I vote for #2 (someone coded '>' instead of '>=')
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

We have a mystery on our hands.  What could have happened?

1) The minimum threshold for big gain was increased.  If so, who authorized this and why?
2) There is a bug on the backend in the calculation right at the published boundary, 75.
3) The algorithm was modified to use no adjustment if worst loss player has a significantly higher rating than best win.
4) taczkid pissed off someone who has access to the USATT database or directed someone to hack into it.



Would be nice if USATT would explain what happened..


It should not be "nice" to get an explanation. It should be required.

If the ratings are used for seeding players in events where there is prize money, they must explain fully how the ratings are calculated.

Imagine an ittf pro asking about how their wr is calculated and getting a response like the usatt response above, simply unacceptable.

If I was paying for usatt membership, I would send this issue to all of the people who run usatt and demand action.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taczkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 2:49pm
Update: I received recommendation from Ethan F. to contact TOURNAMENT COMMITTEE, so I found two emails of representatives of this committee. I did emailed them all the previous email/claim asking them to look into this issue etc. What I received is this:

good afternoon;

This is not something the Tournament Committee handled.

 

 

It's a rating committee and USA Table Tennis Headquarters issue

 

I have contacted back Ethan as I did previously send an email to USATT HEADQUARTERS and was re-directed back to him.

 

It all looks to me like a closed loop ladies and gentleman! Just when you think you know how to count your new rating...think again... Clap
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 4:34pm
contact the usatt board of director's and give them the details of this issue, as well as documenting how you are getting the run around

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/USATT/Board-of-Directors

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 5:20pm
Just something to think about: If you went into that tournament as a new player with no rating, you would probably be leaving with a rating of 2400+...

As far as the run around goes, maybe the rating committee has become jealous that the high performance committee gets to select the vast majority of the national and Olympic team.  They have decided to select your rating based on numerous calculation methods at their disposal.  WinkWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 6:03pm
Put rating aside, in my opinion, he should be 2500+ because he only lost to the overall winner (his final rating 2600+).  Do high rating players prefer playing less matches? If OP played more games, the rating will be closed to the correct level. Although we argue about the detail rating algorithm, please don't playing for rating. (personal opinion)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 6:47pm
does it have to do with the game scores
rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by mentortt mentortt wrote:

Put rating aside, in my opinion, he should be 2500+ because he only lost to the overall winner (his final rating 2600+).  Do high rating players prefer playing less matches? If OP played more games, the rating will be closed to the correct level. Although we argue about the detail rating algorithm, please don't playing for rating. (personal opinion)
 Higher rated players always play less tournament matches at tournaments than all the other players because they usually only have 1 or tops 2 events they can enter. While to OP could have entered up to 6 events if he had chosen to. To say he should be 2500 because he only lost to the the 2500-2600 player is silly. Counting his win against the 2339 player he has won a total of 3 matches with players rated 2200 or higher that show in tournament history results. Under your way of thinking if someone entered a tournament and beat 2 players rated 1500 and only lost to Ma Long he would be rated just under Ma Long. Now if you were just joking about the 2500 rating I take this all back. LoL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/08/2019 at 10:35pm
There is no need to go to the board - this has been escalated and the OP was contacted by USATT senior management earlier today to inform him that the matter has been directed to the software engineers to see if there was a glitch in the system.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taczkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 9:11am
Updated: I just received 3 email replies (3rd one is best) to my last email I sent out to USATT on Friday, where I asked for 3rd time for someone to either check their software for glitch in algorithm/coding where it treats 75 pts as part of the 50-74 TIER 1 and it should be TIER 2, or someone to check manually my rating adjustment based on scoring 75pts + therefore TIER 2 as shown on USATT rating who to calculate website or for someone to adjust their rules to 76+ as they are incorrectly written on their website based on how my ratings were processed.
1. Just want you to know that the IT engineers from Simply Compete (who manages the rating system) are currently looking into this. We’ll let you know what we find – and hopefully we’ll come to a mutually satisfactory resolution. Thank you for your patience.  <--- this was a very nice reply-thank you
2. Please give me a few days to investigate and get back to you all. I am working on this urgently.<--- good reply.
3. To follow up on my email from yesterday, Headquarters at USA Table Tennis already responded to your question and concern, and responded to you by stating the rating calculation is correct. So it is baffling why you would ask us to review what has already been addressed. <--- Clap USATT, this is a BAFFLING reply!  I am only fighting here for what I think is correct, and perhaps for your system glitch adjustment that might cause other players in the future same issue! If there is a glitch in their system I will demand a written apology from USATT! As far as latest reply by Gordy (not to contact BOARD, well I tried dealing only with Rating person at USATT but without any luck, as that person was unable to see that there is a potential error/glitch in software/algorithm or how USATT rating rules are written on the USATT website, therefore I had to contact the board to get this thing moving foreword. I am not trying to offend anyone, or make anyone's life harder. All I want is someone to resolve the issue one way or another. (the initial reply to my first email contacting USATT was: you rating is correct). <--- well that is not the answer anyone would be looking for especially since I can simply READ the rules on the website and figure out at least my approx. rating... I hope this gets resolved soon, as it should be a simple way of someone simply manually calculating my rating while reading OWN USATT rules written on the HOW TO CALCULATE RATINGS website.
 

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 9:14am
Are all responses quoted above from the same person/email address?  Strange if so...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 10:24am
The USATT ratings page is not showing any results for me this morning.  Pure speculation on my part, but I'm wondering if they found a bug and need to recalculate and confirm years of ratings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 10:38am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

The USATT ratings page is not showing any results for me this morning.  Pure speculation on my part, but I'm wondering if they found a bug and need to recalculate and confirm years of ratings.

Think about the same thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

The USATT ratings page is not showing any results for me this morning.  Pure speculation on my part, but I'm wondering if they found a bug and need to recalculate and confirm years of ratings.

Ratings are back up but the result in question is still what it was prior to the unavailability..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taczkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 7:57am

Dear Mr. David Lally @ USATT

 

Not sure where I was rude, perhaps if your things would work and your staff including yourself would be more helpful, I wouldn’t have to send 10 emails to fix one small error that somehow nobody can see.

Are you familiar with a phrase: Pay usatt membership & rating fee, and received treatment like a bee?

FYI: nobody on usatt board should start a sentence with a word YEA! ß now that is just week…

 

If you can’t handle providing help to customer (which in this case is me as I pay membership, tournament fees etc) then don’t! and you shouldn’t even be authorized to respond to customers via emails, if you do not know how!

 

Next time you want to write an email response to someone start with:

 

Dear Mr. …..

 

And end the email with

 

Sincerely,

David Lally at USATT

 

 

Thanks,

Marcin

 

 

From: David Lally <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 3:06 PM
To: taczkid
Subject: Re: FW: Rating Correction

 

Yea, your antagonism and rude tone is not appreciated.

Are you familiar with the expression that you catch more bees with honey?  In my view it applies here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taczkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 8:01am
Above in BLUE you can see the level of reply from one of the USATT affiliated staff David Lally. Above is my reply which I will not hide, his email P....d the S...t out of me! Its amazing how you pay money for membership, thus being customer, and you get treatment like this just because I asked a question/pointed out a mistake perhaps. FYI: if you ever need some help with USATT contact Mark Thompson <--- super nice/polite guy that wants to help and knows how to deal with customer!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 10:49am
I am sure Mr. Thompson is super happy about that endorsement lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 11:01am
the farce carries on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 11:14am
Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

     If there is a glitch in their system I will demand a written apology from USATT!  

 


This makes you sound like a big baby.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 11:39am
Where will the apology ceremony happpen? to save on travel maybe a live webex conference will do? stay tuned, soon to come live on mytt!
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