Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  Help Desk Help Desk  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - V-Grip stroke developement
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

V-Grip stroke developement

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 870
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2011 at 5:18pm
Who dat?
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 870
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/28/2011 at 3:17pm
That is very interesting. looks like the evolution of the grip is moving towards a pistol grip shape.

By the way. The guy in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T2mqd2soA plays at my club now. However he no longer uses his v-grip paddle anymore. He has switched to shakehands. What is interesting is that he strokes the ball in a very similar manor to what you see in the video. Kind of an elongated pushing motion.
Back to Top
Cho! View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 05/23/2011
Location: Kansas City, MO
Status: Offline
Points: 289
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cho! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/28/2011 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

That is very interesting. looks like the evolution of the grip is moving towards a pistol grip shape.

By the way. The guy in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T2mqd2soA plays at my club now. However he no longer uses his v-grip paddle anymore. He has switched to shakehands. What is interesting is that he strokes the ball in a very similar manor to what you see in the video. Kind of an elongated pushing motion.
I played around with V-grip using my cpen blade, and I want to know, Why does this guy always push with his backhand side? When I played with v grip I found that I could hit very strong forehands with the forehand side. (My racket only has FH rubber). So I don't see why he doesn't take advantage of that. Rather than carrying the point out with these back side pushes, he could finish it with a FH smash. There's probably a good reason why he doesn't but I'm curious as to why.
Jpen: Senkoh-1 w. Xiom Vega Pro
SH: Expert All+ w. TG3 Neo & Illumina
Back to Top
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 870
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/28/2011 at 4:52pm
He strokes the same way when he plays shakehands. I think this is the result of a mostly self taught stroke technique. I think it would be very difficult for him to change his stroke mechanics at this point. 

My backhand is without a doubt the best overall part of my game. I am actually spending a huge amount of time and effort on my forehand so I can be more balanced on both sides. 


I model my stroke mechanics after WLQ and ML. For me their are virtually no differences in basic stroke mechanics between v-grip and conventional grips. 

Back to Top
BeaverMD View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/09/2007
Location: Maryland, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1849
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/28/2011 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

That is very interesting. looks like the evolution of the grip is moving towards a pistol grip shape.

By the way. The guy in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T2mqd2soA plays at my club now. However he no longer uses his v-grip paddle anymore. He has switched to shakehands. What is interesting is that he strokes the ball in a very similar manor to what you see in the video. Kind of an elongated pushing motion.
 
I don't think you and this guy really are using the V-grip.  You both are using more of a pistol grip and using the backhand side (let's just call it that for now, shall we?) to hit forehands.  It actually looks like the RPF - reverse penhold forehand Smile When the RPB first came out, everyone was skeptical of it too.  So all I can say is don't give up.
 
As for the V-grip, it's still a valid style as shown by the Seemillers (Danny 2400, Danny Jr. 2150, Ricky 2250, and Randy 2280) as well as Eric Boggan (2550).  However, they all had extensive junior training and with the exception of Danny Jr., lots of international tournament experience. 
 
V-grip players I face above 2000 have good forehands and footwork and really only use the anti-spin only to return serves, block short if the opponent is far from the table, and change pace.  They don't rely on having unfamiliar equipment.  Sub-2000, I see much more blocking using anti and regular on the BH and sometimes twirling.  With equipment, of course the Seemillers popularized the anti on one side and regular on the other.  However, I know some guys prefer long pips OX and regular.  Here's a guy from MD attacking with the V-grip backhand.  He's been as high as 1860.
 
To be honest, I would discourage you from using the V-grip or pistol grip because with limited coaching available, good players won't even be able to give you advice even if they wanted to.  I would instead recommend that you become a modern defender - blocking with long pips while close to the table and chopping as you are forced back, the whole time looping or fishing anything that goes to your FH.  This will also make you move more if burning calories is what you're after Smile Good luck!
Back to Top
zephyr View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 10/14/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 54
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zephyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/28/2011 at 6:45pm
Funny you should mention the Seemillers. Danny got his start in the same club as V-gripper now plays, and Randy is still an active player at the same club.
Back to Top
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 870
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/28/2011 at 7:02pm
I think their may be some confusion. The grip you are referring to is called the seemiller grip. The top player at my club is, in fact, Randy seemiller(Randy is wearing the grey shirt) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke533P8PdXc. I understand the confusion because their is a "V" formed between the thumb and forefinger when you use the seemiller grip.

The pistol grip is called a "V" grip because paddle is pinched between the index finger and the middle finger. These are the fingers you use to form the victory sign with your fingers. 

Here is the video of me hitting forehands during multiball. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgF6wnFFmI&feature=channel_video_title

No real reason to keep calling it the v-grip. Pistol grip is much more descriptive with regard to the shape of the handle. 

Back to Top
BeaverMD View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/09/2007
Location: Maryland, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1849
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/28/2011 at 11:56pm
Oh wow.  Yeah, I definitely use the terms V-grip, Seemiller grip, and windshield wiper grip interchangeably.  I never would have called the grip you're using (I guess we call it pistol grip now) as V-grip.  I would have called it eagle claw grip Smile
 
Also, I discouraged you from pursuing the Seemiller grip because of lack of coaching.  But with Randy being in your club, I'm changing that.  You should just be copying him and getting some advice every now and then.  No need to reeinvent the wheel... unless you like being an inventor.
Back to Top
strikewzen View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 12/23/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote strikewzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2011 at 10:37am
been doing the V grip since 2007
2 best players on school team were in so called "provincial level" from taiwan, they were the ones who got me into ping pong in 2006
every time they see me they say dude you look like a retard, use RPB PLEASE
i agree RPB when done like wang hao beats V grip hands down
but most people can't play like wang hao, and V grip has potential to hug the table better

pros:
1) same side rubber FH & BH allow weight reduction or anti/LP on otherside (also a downside due to most people prefer different rubber for FH and BH, but i model after timo for compact table hug)
2) minimal windup and able to play FH in almost neutral stance
3) over the table FH loop is better, i know it's hard to believe until i prove it but with a whipping motion of wrist you don't flick anymore but loop
4) able to loop wide angles with same stance on FH

cons:
1) no coach not trial proven no specialized equipment
2) learning curve is as steep as RPB
3) backhand block is too slow(deceptive opponent), requiring grip change
4) service require grip change (shown in video in reply to http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46309&title=update-vgrip-stroke-developement)
5) far from table 2 wing loop is easy but never penetrates (safe spinny shots)
6) wrist injuries
7) many many more weaknesses that i am not aware of

keep doing the V grip if you believe in it like i do, i am very tempted to record some games just to prove that it is capable to play competitively and i will put in the effort to upload asap

vs chopper is no problem, in fact better than SH if you believe me, due to weight saving and more wrist spin. the 2 players have graduated earlier this year and they both complimented on the V grip forehand, i have nothing to prove but if you stick to it and give it serious thought, you can do it.

Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2011 at 12:32pm

One major roadblock must be overcome if the v-grip, or pistol grip as it is called in China, is to take off is the angle of impact between the blade and the ball.

As the forearm is naturally held in a neutral position with the palm facing the side of the body when hanging down, the blade face is pointing to the front and back when held with the v-grip.  And since the v-grip itself takes out the slight but significant manuverbility of the thumb and index finger in inclination adjustment of blade angle, which is fundamental with the shakehand and penhold grip, one is forced to rely entirely on the supination and pronation of the forearm to open up the blade face to play the forehand and the backhand strokes, respectively.

From your videos, it is easy to tell you can play the backhand with relative ease but in contrast have huge difficulties playing the forehand with both force and accuracy with the forearm in the supinated position.  I am sure with time you will improve.  But given its complexity, you may have an easier time doing the forehand stroke with the forearm in the pronated position, that is, hitting with the top blade face.  One advantage of doing that is it reduces your workload by simplifying the routine where the forearm is kept in pronation, which is similar to the penhold grip switching between forehand and RPB, so that switching between the forehand and backhand can be as fluid as with the shakehand grip, during which the forearm is kept relatively neutral.



Edited by zeio - 12/27/2011 at 4:39am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
strikewzen View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 12/23/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote strikewzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2011 at 3:51pm
i have shown in this video how to stabilize the blade angle
http://youtu.be/PPzjDKRIBng
forgive me it was done in a hurry with no help, i will try to record a game soon as possible
so far i find it best to play forehand at top of the bounce, more like intercept than to loop

on weak shots you still intercept with the wrist cut but hit into the ball with footwork/waist or arm

with what's out there that represent the v grip right now i understand why no one believes in it, but i hope to change that thought just a little bit
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2011 at 4:40am

How do you do forehand pushes?  It feels awkward using only the underside for that.

For the v-grip to gain a foothold, it is required to at least match either the penhold RPB grip or shakehand grip in both forehand and backhand shots of any type and/or offer something unique.

One of the pros of having two sides is to maximize versatility.  The Chinese is playing with a tacky rubber on one side and a grippy rubber on the other mainly because both sides perform differently as well as balance out the paddle, and their games take advantage of that fact, like the tacky is good for the short game and 3rd ball kills whereas the grippy is better at blocking, lobbing and smashing.

Using the v-grip with one side only is thus a regression.  Weight should not be an issue considering it facilitates the grip strength similar to that of shakehand and yet retains the freedom of wrist of penhold during serve without having to change grip and when doing forehand pushes over the table close to the net, which is a pain for the shakehand grip and why Zhang Jike, Wang hao et al. prefer to step across to the wide forehand to do the chiquita.

Another hurdle facing the v-grip is the cross-over point.  Both penhold RPBers and shakehanders often deal with it by leaning to the forehand side and do the backhand stroke with the wrist flexed toward the body to create more leverage.  With the v-grip, if one is to do that, the wrist may have a harder time pulling toward the body when the forearm is in pronation as abduction of the wrist is normally limited to 20 degrees where flexion of the wrist can readily reach 80-90 degrees.



Edited by zeio - 12/27/2011 at 8:08am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2011 at 8:51am
Another variation of the v-grip, which is more like the real pistol grip resembling a handsaw, alleviates the cross-over issue as it is held between the thumb and index finger, which are capable of swerving the blade to a limited extend.  As the blade face is in line with the palm, this variation suffers in pendulum serve nonetheless.  Unlike the shakehand service grip, the handsaw design makes it next to impossible to do with the pistol grip.  Tomahawk serve is therefore the more viable option.  Examples of this variation include the Yasaka C-H3P and C-5P, Liang Geliang blade, and pistol blade.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 870
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2011 at 1:13pm


Originally posted by strikewzen strikewzen wrote:

been doing the V grip since 2007
2 best players on school team were in so called "provincial level" from taiwan, they were the ones who got me into ping pong in 2006
every time they see me they say dude you look like a retard, use RPB PLEASE
i agree RPB when done like wang hao beats V grip hands down
but most people can't play like wang hao, and V grip has potential to hug the table better

pros:
1) same side rubber FH & BH allow weight reduction or anti/LP on otherside (also a downside due to most people prefer different rubber for FH and BH, but i model after timo for compact table hug)
2) minimal windup and able to play FH in almost neutral stance
3) over the table FH loop is better, i know it's hard to believe until i prove it but with a whipping motion of wrist you don't flick anymore but loop
4) able to loop wide angles with same stance on FH

cons:
1) no coach not trial proven no specialized equipment
2) learning curve is as steep as RPB
3) backhand block is too slow(deceptive opponent), requiring grip change
4) service require grip change (shown in video in reply to http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46309&title=update-vgrip-stroke-developement)
5) far from table 2 wing loop is easy but never penetrates (safe spinny shots)
6) wrist injuries
7) many many more weaknesses that i am not aware of

keep doing the V grip if you believe in it like i do, i am very tempted to record some games just to prove that it is capable to play competitively and i will put in the effort to upload asap

vs chopper is no problem, in fact better than SH if you believe me, due to weight saving and more wrist spin. the 2 players have graduated earlier this year and they both complimented on the V grip forehand, i have nothing to prove but if you stick to it and give it serious thought, you can do it.


After looking at your video I can see why your list of pros and cons looks the way it does. Imo the blade handle shape matters allot. The Chinese style V/Pistol-Grip eliminates allot of the problems in your cons list. The main issue, as I see it, is that the handle extends past the palm such that when you flex you wrist it digs into the inside of your wrist. This limits your ability to flex your wrist freely.

Since you have other blades to experiment with I would suggest that you try the following mods.
1. Cut the handle short, so that the end rests inside the palm when your middle finger is around the end of the cork( this is assuming you are using an upside down jpen like the one in your vid). About where the major creases are. Take a little off at a time and see how it feels. When you can flex your wrist without it digging into your palm you probably have it right. 
2. Glue a finger block on the top to wrap you finger around. 

Some Pics of Chinese player and his grip.








Wang Guangyao was born 7/22/1989. 
He won the China National Amateur Junior Championship in 10/2000 (at age 11). 
He is on the Beijing City Team.
He is estimated to be a 2400-2500 level player (USATT rating system)

The above pictures and caption are from tom veatch's site. Link below.



Other references:


My strokes and play style are fairly conventional. I am probably going to end up being a two winged looper.




Edited by V-Griper - 12/27/2011 at 1:21pm
Back to Top
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 870
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2011 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

How do you do forehand pushes?  It feels awkward using only the underside for that.

Look at the middle picture in the above post.

For the v-grip to gain a foothold, it is required to at least match either the penhold RPB grip or shakehand grip in both forehand and backhand shots of any type and/or offer something unique.

I agree. Most of the advantages that I see are primarily on the backhand side. 

One of the pros of having two sides is to maximize versatility.  The Chinese is playing with a tacky rubber on one side and a grippy rubber on the other mainly because both sides perform differently as well as balance out the paddle, and their games take advantage of that fact, like the tacky is good for the short game and 3rd ball kills whereas the grippy is better at blocking, lobbing and smashing.

The rubber that seems to work the best for me right now is Palio Thor's. It has a springy tensor rubber for the backhand and a tacky top sheet for the forehand. 

Using the v-grip with one side only is thus a regression.

I use both sides. I use the "top" side for service, short pushes, and scooping balls below the table. I use the "bottom" side for backhand some backhand pushes, and forehand.

Weight should not be an issue considering it facilitates the grip strength similar to that of shakehand and yet retains the freedom of wrist of penhold during serve without having to change grip and when doing forehand pushes over the table close to the net, which is a pain for the shakehand grip and why Zhang Jike, Wang hao et al. prefer to step across to the wide forehand to do the chiquita.

I use rubber on both sides of my blade.

Another hurdle facing the v-grip is the cross-over point.  Both penhold RPBers and shakehanders often deal with it by leaning to the forehand side and do the backhand stroke with the wrist flexed toward the body to create more leverage. 

I pretty much do it the same way. 

 With the v-grip, if one is to do that, the wrist may have a harder time pulling toward the body when the forearm is in pronation as abduction of the wrist is normally limited to 20 degrees where flexion of the wrist can readily reach 80-90 degrees.

The way I grip the paddle the ball is struck on the "bottom" side of the paddle which is naturally rests at a 45 degree angle to the ball. Blade angle is controlled by pronation and supination of the forearm.  In fact flexion and extension occur in the plane of the stroke with no ulnar or radial deviation necessary. This is not the case with a shakehand backhand as some ulnar deviation is necessary(unless a backhand biased grip is used i.e. ZJK).

Back to Top
fossa View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/18/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2011 at 11:48pm

I'd like to echo what V-Griper says about the handle not poking your lower palm.  It might
be a good experiment to sand it so that it nestles(rather than digging in) into your lower palm
or shorten it a little bit.  The middle finger finger-hold is good to allow you to swing hard without
fear of the blade flying out of your had. 

Also try putting some light-weight short pips(TSP Spectol 1.4mm for example) onto the other
side(thumb-side) of your blade and use that to push.   I greatly improved my pushes when I did that.

Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:


After looking at your video I can see why your list of pros and cons looks the way it does. Imo the blade handle shape matters allot. The Chinese style V/Pistol-Grip eliminates allot of the problems in your cons list. The main issue, as I see it, is that the handle extends past the palm such that when you flex you wrist it digs into the inside of your wrist. This limits your ability to flex your wrist freely.

Since you have other blades to experiment with I would suggest that you try the following mods.
1. Cut the handle short, so that the end rests inside the palm when your middle finger is around the end of the cork( this is assuming you are using an upside down jpen like the one in your vid). About where the major creases are. Take a little off at a time and see how it feels. When you can flex your wrist without it digging into your palm you probably have it right. 
2. Glue a finger block on the top to wrap you finger around. 

Some Pics of Chinese player and his grip.








Wang Guangyao was born 7/22/1989. 
He won the China National Amateur Junior Championship in 10/2000 (at age 11). 
He is on the Beijing City Team.
He is estimated to be a 2400-2500 level player (USATT rating system)

The above pictures and caption are from tom veatch's site. Link below.



Other references:


My strokes and play style are fairly conventional. I am probably going to end up being a two winged looper.


Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2011 at 1:11am
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

How do you do forehand pushes?  It feels awkward using only the underside for that.

Look at the middle picture in the above post.

Using the v-grip with one side only is thus a regression.

I use both sides. I use the "top" side for service, short pushes, and scooping balls below the table. I use the "bottom" side for backhand some backhand pushes, and forehand.

Well, that's what I was trying to allude to after reading strikewzen's pros listing same side rubber for forehand and backhand.  I should have quoted that in my post.
 
Quote Another hurdle facing the v-grip is the cross-over point.  Both penhold RPBers and shakehanders often deal with it by leaning to the forehand side and do the backhand stroke with the wrist flexed toward the body to create more leverage. 

I pretty much do it the same way. 

 With the v-grip, if one is to do that, the wrist may have a harder time pulling toward the body when the forearm is in pronation as abduction of the wrist is normally limited to 20 degrees where flexion of the wrist can readily reach 80-90 degrees.

The way I grip the paddle the ball is struck on the "bottom" side of the paddle which is naturally rests at a 45 degree angle to the ball. Blade angle is controlled by pronation and supination of the forearm.  In fact flexion and extension occur in the plane of the stroke with no ulnar or radial deviation necessary. This is not the case with a shakehand backhand as some ulnar deviation is necessary(unless a backhand biased grip is used i.e. ZJK).

The combination of adduction(or ulnar deviation, 30-50 degrees) and flexion of the wrist gives rise to a much wider freedom, as seen in Zhang Jike's and Kenta Matsudaira's fade blocking a diagonal shot down-the-line by supination of the forearm with the wrist adducted and flexed (called 抹, or wipe, literally), an advanced stroke that is well exclusive to the shakehand grip.  Penhold RPB and certain v-grip can hardly mimic this shot as the backhand stroke depends on the forearm in pronation to open up the blade angle, but with that the degree of motion of the wrist is limited by abduction(radial deviation), which makes blocking straight down very difficult.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 870
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2011 at 2:56am
The combination of adduction(or ulnar deviation, 30-50 degrees) and flexion of the wrist gives rise to a much wider freedom, as seen in Zhang Jike's and Kenta Matsudaira's fade blocking a diagonal shot down-the-line by supination of the forearm with the wrist adducted and flexed (called 抹, or wipe, literally), an advanced stroke that is well exclusive to the shakehand grip.  Penhold RPB and certain v-grip can hardly mimic this shot as the backhand stroke depends on the forearm in pronation to open up the blade angle, but with that the degree of motion of the wrist is limited by abduction(radial deviation), which makes blocking straight down very difficult.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this in general. I can execute a similar shot, but it requires a little more effort. RPB has the same drawback. 

I am just starting to develop and refine my backhand stroke mechanics. Using my forehand development as a rough guide it should take about 3-4 months and about 30-40 thousand repetitions. By then I should have a better sense of whether the points you mention turn out to be significant liabilities in match situations.


Edited by V-Griper - 12/28/2011 at 2:57am
Back to Top
strikewzen View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 12/23/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote strikewzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2011 at 6:19am
i did attempt the shortened handle inside palm and made a modified racket similar to ones shown in the picture since tom's site was the only information available at the time (early 2007)

i believe i saw him play and in couple videos and found the backhand to be problematic (difficult to "rip the ball in a explosive wrist motion"
as for the forehand handle, my blade angle is stablized with extended index and thumb forming the L shape shown on youtube. this is crucial for me, without it shots are very inconsistent (for me)

my backhand after grip change is similar to shakehand, but require the elbow to be higher, i will find oppertunity to film in action

thanks guys i enjoy all of your comments very much and i don't feel alone like before, thank you so much for your company
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2011 at 9:00am
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

The combination of adduction(or ulnar deviation, 30-50 degrees) and flexion of the wrist gives rise to a much wider freedom, as seen in Zhang Jike's and Kenta Matsudaira's fade blocking a diagonal shot down-the-line by supination of the forearm with the wrist adducted and flexed (called 抹, or wipe, literally), an advanced stroke that is well exclusive to the shakehand grip.  Penhold RPB and certain v-grip can hardly mimic this shot as the backhand stroke depends on the forearm in pronation to open up the blade angle, but with that the degree of motion of the wrist is limited by abduction(radial deviation), which makes blocking straight down very difficult.

I agree with this in general. I can execute a similar shot, but it requires a little more effort. RPB has the same drawback. 

I am just starting to develop and refine my backhand stroke mechanics. Using my forehand development as a rough guide it should take about 3-4 months and about 30-40 thousand repetitions. By then I should have a better sense of whether the points you mention turn out to be significant liabilities in match situations.

There is no need for the wait as those issues have been discussed at great lengths on various chinese forums.

This training video reveals the complexity of doing the forehand stroke with the underside rubber.  Those poor balls keep going into the net.  From his stroke I suppose he is having trouble to get the timing right and most of the force go into grazing instead of hitting contact as I am pretty sure he must find it hard and odd to swing and keep the forearm supinated.  He has to make a conscious effort, as instructed by the "coach" starting at 1:36, to supinate the forearm to over 90 degrees to open up the blade angle, but it doesn't get them far as the balls still aim for the net, so there must be something else causing that.  Abduction of the wrist could be one.  Another case of reinventing the wheel nonetheless.

This is not supposed to happen to the v-grip as the whole concept behind its formulation is to reduce the learning curve and make those forehand and backhand strokes easier to execute with than either shakehand or penhold grip.



Edited by zeio - 12/28/2011 at 9:12am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
V-Griper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 870
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2011 at 12:44pm

There is no need for the wait as those issues have been discussed at great lengths on various chinese forums.

This training video reveals the complexity of doing the forehand stroke with the underside rubber.  Those poor balls keep going into the net.  From his stroke I suppose he is having trouble to get the timing right and most of the force go into grazing instead of hitting contact as I am pretty sure he must find it hard and odd to swing and keep the forearm supinated.  He has to make a conscious effort, as instructed by the "coach" starting at 1:36, to supinate the forearm to over 90 degrees to open up the blade angle, but it doesn't get them far as the balls still aim for the net, so there must be something else causing that.  Abduction of the wrist could be one.  Another case of reinventing the wheel nonetheless.

This is not supposed to happen to the v-grip as the whole concept behind its formulation is to reduce the learning curve and make those forehand and backhand strokes easier to execute with than either shakehand or penhold grip.

[/QUOTE]

Wow. That is the first video I have seen of a Chinese player using this grip. Thanks.

I don't know if you have seen the updated video of me so I will post it here. Be aware that my both the top and bottom of my paddle have black rubber. However in this video I hit everything with the bottom side.

Some things to look for while you watch.

You will notice that my index finger is extended across the top of the paddle(see first page of this post for pictures of how I grip the paddle).I have found that control of the paddle angle is more refined and stable if I extend my index finger across the top of the paddle. APW46 commented on this earlier in this post and it has made a big difference. 

Sequence:
Forehand counter hit warm up.
Backhand counter hit warm up.
3 rounds multiball forehand loop with basic footwork.
1 round multiball backhand experimental( I am just starting to work out backhand mechanics).




Edited by V-Griper - 12/28/2011 at 12:49pm
Back to Top
strikewzen View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 12/23/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 80
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote strikewzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/29/2011 at 1:11am
Mr. Zeio, you have mentioned there are chinese forums discussing the V grip

perhaps i misunderstood, but if you still are familiar with the sources could you point me in the right direct please. i would love to read those topics, actually what is the V grip called in chinese?

i can read and type chinese no problem, please let me know, thanks so much sir.
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/29/2011 at 6:26am
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:


There is no need for the wait as those issues have been discussed at great lengths on various chinese forums.

This training video reveals the complexity of doing the forehand stroke with the underside rubber.  Those poor balls keep going into the net.  From his stroke I suppose he is having trouble to get the timing right and most of the force go into grazing instead of hitting contact as I am pretty sure he must find it hard and odd to swing and keep the forearm supinated.  He has to make a conscious effort, as instructed by the "coach" starting at 1:36, to supinate the forearm to over 90 degrees to open up the blade angle, but it doesn't get them far as the balls still aim for the net, so there must be something else causing that.  Abduction of the wrist could be one.  Another case of reinventing the wheel nonetheless.

This is not supposed to happen to the v-grip as the whole concept behind its formulation is to reduce the learning curve and make those forehand and backhand strokes easier to execute with than either shakehand or penhold grip.

Wow. That is the first video I have seen of a Chinese player using this grip. Thanks.

I don't know if you have seen the updated video of me so I will post it here. Be aware that my both the top and bottom of my paddle have black rubber. However in this video I hit everything with the bottom side.

Some things to look for while you watch.

You will notice that my index finger is extended across the top of the paddle(see first page of this post for pictures of how I grip the paddle).I have found that control of the paddle angle is more refined and stable if I extend my index finger across the top of the paddle. APW46 commented on this earlier in this post and it has made a big difference. 

Sequence:
Forehand counter hit warm up.
Backhand counter hit warm up.
3 rounds multiball forehand loop with basic footwork.
1 round multiball backhand experimental( I am just starting to work out backhand mechanics).


I have seen it in your other thread.  Extending the index finer over the blade is analogous to placing the index finger, or having the middle, ring, and little fingers stacked on the backhand rubber for shakehand and penhold grip, respectively.  Oftentimes shots do not land dead-on in the center of the paddle and this "tweaks" your grip.  So having a finger as extra support is desirable in reducing the domino effect.  Another benefit is that the index finger also can press on the blade face and assist in opening its angle.  But then you give up a portion of the grip strength and the finger could potentially get in the way during pushes, and touch shots are usually done near that part.


Edited by zeio - 12/29/2011 at 7:18am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
Hookshot View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 07/24/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1797
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/29/2011 at 7:14am

Here is your stroke done with pen hold. Watch the whole clip, there is slo-mo that shows it. Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcscISPzk5Y&feature=player
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7101
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/29/2011 at 9:13am
Originally posted by strikewzen strikewzen wrote:

Mr. Zeio, you have mentioned there are chinese forums discussing the V grip

perhaps i misunderstood, but if you still are familiar with the sources could you point me in the right direct please. i would love to read those topics, actually what is the V grip called in chinese?

i can read and type chinese no problem, please let me know, thanks so much sir.

There are many names and variations for the v-grip, "長有四面攻(Chang You Four-Side Drive)", "槍拍(Pistol Grip)", "古氏直拍(Gu's Penhold Grip)", "梁戈亮牌球拍(Liang Geliang's Blade)", just to name a few.

They fall into two categories, shakehand-like or penhold-like, depending on how it is held.  Both types implement designs that look to enhance on the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of popular grips.  But the catch here is either type is essentially a superficial modification of the shakehand or penhold grip and so bears the same fundamental properties of its respective grip, desirable or not.  On top of that some of those designs often unthoughtfully thus unintentionally introduce complications as pointed out in my previous posts.

Here is one review about the 槍拍(pistol grip). Another one.

The following is an article about modifying the 槍拍 by tilting the blade face from the handle by 10 degrees, with the aim of reducing the level of pronation and supination on forehand and backhand strokes.



Edited by zeio - 12/29/2011 at 9:17am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
fossa View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/18/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/30/2011 at 12:20am

I think this thread might be referencing the v-grip as the grip with the blade sandwiched between the index and middle fingers with the handle(of whatever size and shape) resting against the palm.(instead of resting like a pen as with the penhold grip).

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by strikewzen strikewzen wrote:

Mr. Zeio, you have mentioned there are chinese forums discussing the V grip

perhaps i misunderstood, but if you still are familiar with the sources could you point me in the right direct please. i would love to read those topics, actually what is the V grip called in chinese?

i can read and type chinese no problem, please let me know, thanks so much sir.

There are many names and variations for the v-grip, "長有四面攻(Chang You Four-Side Drive)", "槍拍(Pistol Grip)", "古氏直拍(Gu's Penhold Grip)", "梁戈亮牌球拍(Liang Geliang's Blade)", just to name a few.

They fall into two categories, shakehand-like or penhold-like, depending on how it is held.  Both types implement designs that look to enhance on the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of popular grips.  But the catch here is either type is essentially a superficial modification of the shakehand or penhold grip and so bears the same fundamental properties of its respective grip, desirable or not.  On top of that some of those designs often unthoughtfully thus unintentionally introduce complications as pointed out in my previous posts.

Here is one review about the 槍拍(pistol grip). Another one.

The following is an article about modifying the 槍拍 by tilting the blade face from the handle by 10 degrees, with the aim of reducing the level of pronation and supination on forehand and backhand strokes.



Edited by fossa - 12/30/2011 at 7:46pm
Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2020 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.