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What is a Non-Sanctioned tournament?

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popperlocker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11/02/2008 at 4:00am
"1. Any USATT member who participates in any way (i.e. player, umpire or organizer) in an unsanctioned tournament shall be subject to disciplinary action."
(from) http://www.usatt.org/events/tournaments.shtml

If you're a usatt member, you'll get fined for participating in a non sanctioned tournament??

Are non sanctioned tournaments Rated?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnopgnipster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2008 at 9:34am
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

http://www.usatt.org/events/tournaments.shtml

If you're a usatt member, you'll get fined for participating in a non sanctioned tournament??

Are non sanctioned tournaments Rated?
Unsantioned tournaments are usually opened to anyone the organizer wants to let in. They are unsanctioned because they are not rated and may have different rules from those that govern sanctioned tournaments.
I don't think you will get fined for playing in one. The usatt and ittf have better things to do that check up on unsanctioned tournaments. Furthermore, I don't think they have the authority to fine you for playing. Can you imagine if they tried to fine you for playing in a tennis tournament? A tennis tournament is not sanctioned but you also play with rackets and round balls!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sprite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2008 at 9:48am
Non-sanctioned generally means a tournament wherein the participants are not USATT members, i.e. they don't pay monies to the USATT.
It can also mean the USATT has not been paid their fee, or some other requirement such as turning in results (tournament reports) have not been met regarding previous tournaments.

It is possible that no action would taken by USATT, and a look at the bylaws should reveal the action options.  The whole thing is about control.

Non sanctioned tournaments will not be rated by the USATT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote varghesep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2008 at 11:48am
Agree to what others have said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2008 at 12:09pm
To play in a USATT tourney, you have to join the USATT. The fee helps cover the record keeping, etc.
In a non-sancioned tourney, your wins/losses do not affect your rating. There are no penalties. They do not turn in the results to the USATT.
USATT would be shooting themselves in the foot if they had penalties for playing in a non-sancioned tourney. We need more tourneys of any kind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2008 at 4:08pm
Thanks for the info ya'll, been confused for a while. I'm clear about it now appreciate it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Shakehander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2008 at 4:36pm
Who told you, that you'd get fined?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2008 at 5:53pm
USATT simply doesn't have a judicial authority to impose any fines at all. Can you imagine playing your friends in your basement, publishing  those results in a  local newspaper, say, under a name 'Main Street Championship won by local kid", then getting a letter from USATT saying only they can organize and sanction TT tourneys... that would be laughable.

There are tournaments held in Boston every year called Bay State Games, which are not USATT-sanctioned, not USATT-rated etc. They are "mass participation" games for everyone who wants to come (and not just TT, but other sports as well). They simply do not get rated by USATT but I doubt there is even a chance of them being somehow "illegal' from USATT standpoint. I think they simply ignore the tournaments which are not USATT-sanctioned...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2008 at 5:54pm

The state Senior Games are not sancioned. Anyone can take part. If they were sancioned, you would have to join USATT first.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jakata31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2008 at 7:48pm
I remember discussions about this years ago. I found an old thread mentioning the USATT rule about  disciplinary action for playing in non-sanctioned tournaments in their Tournament guide.
 
I imagine this "small thinking" has been dropped in the new guides. I did not find a copy of the guide to verify.
James
 
from rec.sport.table-tennis archives:
 
>>
For instance, in the USATT Tournament
Guide, it states:

Any member or the USATT who conducts, assists, or competes in a tournament
that is not sanctioned by the USATT (other than those exempted above) will
be subject to disciplinary action.

The exemptions do include local leagues and tournaments but "they must not
offer prize money and must not advertise other than locally." So if I
wanted to, for instance, organize a national playoff competition of
Baptist Churches or give away $100 to the winner of the Two Rivers Baptist
Church Ping Pong Tournament, then I would be "subject to disciplinary
actions" by the USATT.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 4:03am
Does anyone know the details of this non-sanctioned rule, if it is even a rule?

I am not trying to start a separate association but I am intrigued, as an amateur player, what would happen if several clubs just started adopting either RC ratings and/or handicap tournaments and just said forget being a USATT member and the ratings that go with it?

I imagine the one concern is playing in USATT sanctioned events, but talking to a lawyer (that's right USATT, I got one... ok, but he's just my buddy), they are not allowed to say "if you compete in a non-sanctioned event, we will punish you or prevent you from playing USATT events".  Also, my friend said they cannot "strong arm" any club from holding a non-sanctioned event as a condition for being allowed sanctioning for future events.  Something to do with monopoly or organized crime laws... but that's for you legal minds to figure out.  So, let's say a bunch of clubs in the East or West Coast just said screw it, let's start a bunch of tournaments that have no USATT sanctioning, is that a problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 7:54am
It's a problem for usatt.  For players it would be great.   

Unsanctioned events are cheap and fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 8:47am
At my club we held many tournaments and they were never sanctioned.  We saw no advantage whatsoever in paying the sanctioning fee (in other words giving USATT their take of the proceeds) because USATT would provide absolutely nothing in return.  We preferred to give more money in prizes to players, as best we could.  Also, of course, there would have been all the extra work of sending results to USATT for ratings, done by unpaid volunteers.  

Other than that,, our tournaments were pretty much like sanctioned ones..  Winners of our open tournaments were generally 2500-2600 players and we had plenty of entries.  We usually had an under 2100 event as well.  We didn't need our tournaments to be posted on a USATT website.

I know it's easy to criticize and hard to make meaningful  changes without money but USATT provides very little of value to clubs (certainly not to ours, and we had at least five of our members on various USA national teams).  It has been a very long time since I had any confidence whatsoever that they are capable of actually building the sport in the US.  I don't know any USATT officials personally,  so this is just based on observation over a long time.  

By the way, the fatal demise of my club, HTTA, was not due to USATT sanctioning or not, or even due to loss of members, it was our landlord deciding to nearly double our rent when it came time to renew our lease-- while insisting that we would be responsible for any upgrades to AC systems (which in Houston are crucial and which have a huge impact on electricity bill).




Edited by Baal - 03/26/2021 at 8:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 11:01am
I don't think these apply anymore, that link from 2008 is dead.

The only thing I can find on the USATT website is in USA Table Tennis Tournament Guide, dated 2016.
Under Chapter 3 - Tournament Sanction it says " 2.d. USATT members are encouraged to compete and participate only in USATT sanctioned competitions or those competitions exempt in para. 2.b. above."

No fines, no penalties, just encouraged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FS1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 11:42am
I have friends that live in Florida and they play in a national sandpaper organization and in a big ball one too. There are plenty of TT organizations  in the USA plus even the college association runs (according to them over 60 unsanctioned tournaments). I think this is an old rule. When I lived in the USA back in the 1990's it was a thing but not now. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 11:44am
From my experience, non-sanctioned tournaments are usually tournaments where matches are still played but no rating adjustments are involved after the tournament occurs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Does anyone know the details of this non-sanctioned rule, if it is even a rule?

I am not trying to start a separate association but I am intrigued, as an amateur player, what would happen if several clubs just started adopting either RC ratings and/or handicap tournaments and just said forget being a USATT member and the ratings that go with it?

I imagine the one concern is playing in USATT sanctioned events, but talking to a lawyer (that's right USATT, I got one... ok, but he's just my buddy), they are not allowed to say "if you compete in a non-sanctioned event, we will punish you or prevent you from playing USATT events".  Also, my friend said they cannot "strong arm" any club from holding a non-sanctioned event as a condition for being allowed sanctioning for future events.  Something to do with monopoly or organized crime laws... but that's for you legal minds to figure out.  So, let's say a bunch of clubs in the East or West Coast just said screw it, let's start a bunch of tournaments that have no USATT sanctioning, is that a problem?
It actually was a rule back in the 1940’s-1950’s playing era. You could be suspended for playing in non sanctioned tournaments be it local or in other countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/09/2021 at 10:15am
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

There are tournaments held in Boston every year called Bay State Games, which are not USATT-sanctioned, not USATT-rated etc.


State Games are an exception. USATT does sanction them. When I was running the Bay State Games, I'd send in the form every year so the tournament would get on the USATT tournament list and USATT would send me member addresses/emails. The sanction fee was (is?) zero, and State Games are not required to be rated.

The reason the rule about non-sanctioned tournaments is there is so USATT could try to prevent a competing association from being formed. They aren't going to do anything if your club runs some unsanctioned tournaments.

I was annoyed when they changed the rules to require that USATT ratings be used in sanctioned tournaments, since I'm pretty sure it was done because Ratings Central was offering more accurate ratings (which were free back then), and some people in USATT didn't like that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tuco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/09/2021 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

At my club we held many tournaments and they were never sanctioned.  We saw no advantage whatsoever in paying the sanctioning fee (in other words giving USATT their take of the proceeds) because USATT would provide absolutely nothing in return.  ...




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/09/2021 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Also, my friend said they cannot "strong arm" any club from holding a non-sanctioned event as a condition for being allowed sanctioning for future events.  Something to do with monopoly or organized crime laws... but that's for you legal minds to figure out.

Sports are often exempt from such laws. And, USATT is the USOC NGB, so that may give them some rights a competing organization doesn't have. Are you sure your lawyer friend took this into account?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/09/2021 at 7:47pm
What a mess this thread is turning out to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/09/2021 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by tuco tuco wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

At my club we held many tournaments and they were never sanctioned.  We saw no advantage whatsoever in paying the sanctioning fee (in other words giving USATT their take of the proceeds) because USATT would provide absolutely nothing in return.  ...





Our club had liability insurance anyway.  But you're right.  They provide SOMETHING.  Just not enough  to make it worth it.  Also, I have no idea if the policies they provide are any good.  There are no details on your link.


Edited by Baal - 05/09/2021 at 10:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2021 at 12:01am
If you are an elite player USATT insurance will cover all your expenses.  If you are not elite they pay for 2 band aids and a bottle of generic ibuprofen.

This is a sarcastic comment with no basis in actual fact.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2021 at 11:40am
This is a sarcastic comment with no basis in actual fact.

This is OK.  I do hope there is room for sarcasm in our dialogues, though my strong preference is irony.  And, of course, humor.

I found it interesting your qualifying adjective "actual" in front of the word "fact".  Who knew the word "fact" needed qualifying?  I'm not an expert in facts, in fact, as America's recent history has brought to confusion the use of the term itself.  A famous Irish-American known to drink too much publicly stated that no one is allowed their own facts, which has been proven, in fact, to be wrong.  That's a fact.

Time magazine had a multi-year project of tracking statements by the highest American governmental official which deviated from the facts.  I don't know if the final results have been published, but the on going reporting showed a spectacular accumulation.

The only conclusion one may draw is that facts (or actual facts, as some people say) are overrated.  This makes your contribution to this thread of higher value than would otherwise be supposed, I suppose.

Your comment followed this observation:

What a mess this thread is turning out to be.

This comment immediately made me feel bad, as I had yet to contribute to this tread.  Now I feel better.

By the way, my experience is one band-aid and no drugs.

Thanks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2021 at 12:27pm
Correct me if I am wrong but I would tend to think that an unsanctioned tournament is a tournament run by a USATT member or an affiliated club without making payments to USATT for assigning a star rating, getting a USATT certified umpire and so on. But a non-sanctioned tournament  has nothing to do with USATT 

Edited by dyger - 05/10/2021 at 12:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2021 at 6:18am
Originally posted by David Marcus David Marcus wrote:

Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Also, my friend said they cannot "strong arm" any club from holding a non-sanctioned event as a condition for being allowed sanctioning for future events.  Something to do with monopoly or organized crime laws... but that's for you legal minds to figure out.

Sports are often exempt from such laws. And, USATT is the USOC NGB, so that may give them some rights a competing organization doesn't have. Are you sure your lawyer friend took this into account?

I don't know what he took into account but he said two things:

1.  A player cannot be legally prevented by USATT from playing a non-sanctioned tournament.
2.  A club cannot be legally penalized for organizing a non-sanctioned tournament.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/11/2021 at 11:37am
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Originally posted by David Marcus David Marcus wrote:

Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Also, my friend said they cannot "strong arm" any club from holding a non-sanctioned event as a condition for being allowed sanctioning for future events.  Something to do with monopoly or organized crime laws... but that's for you legal minds to figure out.

Sports are often exempt from such laws. And, USATT is the USOC NGB, so that may give them some rights a competing organization doesn't have. Are you sure your lawyer friend took this into account?

I don't know what he took into account but he said two things:

1.  A player cannot be legally prevented by USATT from playing a non-sanctioned tournament.
2.  A club cannot be legally penalized for organizing a non-sanctioned tournament.


1. When a player becomes a USATT member, they sort of sign an agreement. If USATT modifies the agreement to include prevention of a USATT member from playing in an unsanctioned tournament, then they have legal right to do so.  Then USATT can punish the member

2.  Same as above for a member applies to clubs. A club can be punished

Of course someone here said USATT dropped the prevention clause that they used to have . So I don't know anything about that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2021 at 11:56am
I am very curious as to what kind of non-sanctioned tournaments exist in countries other than USA & how they operate to get around local regulations
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