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Topic ClosedWhen will we play Table Tennis again?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2020 at 4:02am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Heard report Arizona new cases are spiking and about to go over 90%  hospital bed utilization.  Any word about going back to shutdown conditions there.

Texas new cases still increasing but not as fast as Az.  Have not heard aanything on Tx hospital bed utilization.

I have reservations to start traveling again at end of June.  Hope I do not get caught up in new shutdowns that close campgrounds.

Mark
I read a bit more about Arizona's surge in cases.  It's clear there's a big jump in infections and hospitalizations, but what happens next is ambiguous.  The former health director wants to put in new rules, but he's the *former* director.  The governor has already said that isn't going to happen and these numbers were expected.  My guess is that you'll need a surge in deaths, or an overload of the hospitals, before the governor relents.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2020 at 7:34am
Hi,

with the similar restrictions (wear mask . . .)

This one restriction will severely limit, if not ruin, the table tennis playing experience for many.

Thanks
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2020 at 10:01am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Heard report Arizona new cases are spiking and about to go over 90%  hospital bed utilization.  Any word about going back to shutdown conditions there.

Texas new cases still increasing but not as fast as Az.  Have not heard aanything on Tx hospital bed utilization.

I have reservations to start traveling again at end of June.  Hope I do not get caught up in new shutdowns that close campgrounds.

Mark
I read a bit more about Arizona's surge in cases.  It's clear there's a big jump in infections and hospitalizations, but what happens next is ambiguous.  The former health director wants to put in new rules, but he's the *former* director.  The governor has already said that isn't going to happen and these numbers were expected.  My guess is that you'll need a surge in deaths, or an overload of the hospitals, before the governor relents.

Hospital bed utilization inHouston  has climbed sharply since end of May.  There is still ICU capacity but the trend is sharply in the wrong direction, and this preceded recent protests and coincided with reopening.  Colleagues tell me that people they are seeing lately are younger than before.  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/12/2020 at 4:44am
I heard that someone sent the Goon Squad to ICC to pay a visit. Anyone know how it went?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2020 at 8:07am
New study in Proceedings of the National Academy of Scince of the USA.  It suggests the single best way we could get this pandemic to subside while still being able to more or less get on with our lives. Increasingly companies like UnderArmor are developing masks designed for use during sports.  Thus situation is not forever but for awhile at least, is it too much to ask?. 

Identifying airborne transmission as the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19
Renyi Zhang,  Yixin Li, Annie L. Zhang,  Yuan Wang, and Mario J. Molina

Significance
We have elucidated the transmission pathways of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) by analyzing the trend and mitigation measures in the three epicenters. Our results show that the airborne transmission route is highly virulent and dominant for the spread of COVID-19. The mitigation measures are discernable from the trends of the pandemic. Our analysis reveals that the difference with and without mandated face covering represents the determinant in shaping the trends of the pandemic. This protective measure significantly reduces the number of infections. Other mitigation measures, such as social distancing implemented in the United States, are insufficient by themselves in protecting the public. Our work also highlights the necessity that sound science is essential in decision-making for the current and future public health pandemics.

Abstract
Various mitigation measures have been implemented to fight the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, including widely adopted social distancing and mandated face covering. However, assessing the effectiveness of those intervention practices hinges on the understanding of virus transmission, which remains uncertain. Here we show that airborne transmission is highly virulent and represents the dominant route to spread the disease. By analyzing the trend and mitigation measures in Wuhan, China, Italy, and New York City, from January 23 to May 9, 2020, we illustrate that the impacts of mitigation measures are discernable from the trends of the pandemic. Our analysis reveals that the difference with and without mandated face covering represents the determinant in shaping the pandemic trends in the three epicenters. This protective measure alone significantly reduced the number of infections, that is, by over 78,000 in Italy from April 6 to May 9 and over 66,000 in New York City from April 17 to May 9. Other mitigation measures, such as social distancing implemented in the United States, are insufficient by themselves in protecting the public. We conclude that wearing of face masks in public corresponds to the most effective means to prevent interhuman transmission, and this inexpensive practice, in conjunction with simultaneous social distancing, quarantine, and contact tracing, represents the most likely fighting opportunity to stop the COVID-19 pandemic. Our work also highlights the fact that sound science is essential in decision-making for the current and future public health pandemics.


Edited by Baal - 06/13/2020 at 8:09am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2020 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

New study in Proceedings of the National Academy of Scince of the USA.  It suggests the single best way we could get this pandemic to subside while still being able to more or less get on with our lives. Increasingly companies like UnderArmor are developing masks designed for use during sports.  Thus situation is not forever but for awhile at least, is it too much to ask?. 

Identifying airborne transmission as the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19
Renyi Zhang,  Yixin Li, Annie L. Zhang,  Yuan Wang, and Mario J. Molina


I'm happy to see this, which is consistent with my own perspective.  People tend to focus on surface disinfecting because that's relatively easy.  Worried about infection? Go wipe down a table with alcohol.  But that leads to a misguided sense of security.  If the main method of transmission is airborne, then cleaning tables isn't going to make much difference.

I always wear a mask now when going to stores and similar public places, and it astonishes me how many people don't.  It's a super-simple step to take that -- unlike all other measures, such as a lockdown -- has minimal affect on your lifestyle.  It's more problematic if you want to eat dine-in inside a restaurant, which is why I haven't done that yet.  But mostly, it's effective.

Table tennis, of course, is a different matter.  I've played with masks a few times now and it doesn't work well.  It would be great if they start producing "athletic face masks", although I'm not sure how those are supposed to work.  In the absence of masks, then in my mind the most important step is looking for ways to scrub the air.

I mentioned earlier that our club uses large roll-up doors to create a cross-breeze.  It's not perfect, which is why social distancing is still useful, but it pretty much guarantees that infected droplets aren't just floating around everywhere for long periods.  Most clubs, of course, don't have our advantage.  So for them, I'd be looking at air scrubbers.  I just don't know how effective they are against these droplets.  I don't believe A/C filters in a central HVAC system are sufficient, because the air doesn't recirculate frequently enough.  But would clubs would benefit from portable air purifiers, such as you might buy at Costco or Home Depot?

These are the issues clubs should be thinking about.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2020 at 4:55pm
The portable hepa air filters you get from Home Depot are meant for home use and are designed for relatively small spaces, so you will need many of them for a tt club. I have owned a few of these. They are usually in the $100-200 range for home use.

People have developed alot of diy hepa air filters. A real simple design is to get a common 20 inch box fan and attach to a 20 inch furnace filter. They can be taped together easily. Furnace filters come in many grades of filtration up to hepa quality and are easy to find. Total cost would be $30-40.

It would be interesting to get some real science on this idea. I did see some article about how home made masks can filter much better if you cut a piece of the hepa furnace filter and put a layer of it in your mask.

Another possible easy solution is to put a few oscillating fans in the club if the better solution is simply to circulate air to reduce virus concentration.




Edited by qpskfec - 06/13/2020 at 4:55pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2020 at 6:08pm
The best way is still to wait a couple of months to play. But I guess no one got infected so far due to playing table tennis yet, right? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2020 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

New study in Proceedings of the National Academy of Scince of the USA.  It suggests the single best way we could get this pandemic to subside while still being able to more or less get on with our lives. Increasingly companies like UnderArmor are developing masks designed for use during sports.  Thus situation is not forever but for awhile at least, is it too much to ask?. 

Identifying airborne transmission as the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19
Renyi Zhang,  Yixin Li, Annie L. Zhang,  Yuan Wang, and Mario J. Molina


I'm happy to see this, which is consistent with my own perspective.  People tend to focus on surface disinfecting because that's relatively easy.  Worried about infection? Go wipe down a table with alcohol.  But that leads to a misguided sense of security.  If the main method of transmission is airborne, then cleaning tables isn't going to make much difference.

I always wear a mask now when going to stores and similar public places, and it astonishes me how many people don't.  It's a super-simple step to take that -- unlike all other measures, such as a lockdown -- has minimal affect on your lifestyle.  It's more problematic if you want to eat dine-in inside a restaurant, which is why I haven't done that yet.  But mostly, it's effective.

Table tennis, of course, is a different matter.  I've played with masks a few times now and it doesn't work well.  It would be great if they start producing "athletic face masks", although I'm not sure how those are supposed to work.  In the absence of masks, then in my mind the most important step is looking for ways to scrub the air.

I mentioned earlier that our club uses large roll-up doors to create a cross-breeze.  It's not perfect, which is why social distancing is still useful, but it pretty much guarantees that infected droplets aren't just floating around everywhere for long periods.  Most clubs, of course, don't have our advantage.  So for them, I'd be looking at air scrubbers.  I just don't know how effective they are against these droplets.  I don't believe A/C filters in a central HVAC system are sufficient, because the air doesn't recirculate frequently enough.  But would clubs would benefit from portable air purifiers, such as you might buy at Costco or Home Depot?

These are the issues clubs should be thinking about.

I have a mask made of a more rigid material that stays away from my nose and mouth when it gets a bit wet. It would d work for TT.  But an ear strap tore.  I
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2020 at 10:28pm
Played today. Club has reopened in a limited manner. 90 minute time slots, must sign up with a partner, no drop-in or open play. Less tables, every table is fully enclosed with barriers. The usual check temperature, hand sanitizer, etc. Tables are disinfected between between sessions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2020 at 11:13pm
I like the idea mentioned of an athletic mask. It'd probably be a real challenge to get people to wear them since there's already such opposition with many people for even wearing face covering of any kind inside stores or indoor places in general. In my experiences, the peace of mind has been much greater when playing outdoor sports since studies have generally suggested that outdoor transmission and risk is much lower outside.

Edited by FinalFight - 06/13/2020 at 11:19pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 1:04am
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Played today. Club has reopened in a limited manner. 90 minute time slots, must sign up with a partner, no drop-in or open play. Less tables, every table is fully enclosed with barriers. The usual check temperature, hand sanitizer, etc. Tables are disinfected between between sessions.
You see, to me this is exactly the kind of policy that is misguided and leads to greater risk because it gives people an incorrect sense of safety.

First, temperature is a very poor indicator for covid-19, so relying on it is pretty useless.  You would most likely notice the obvious symptoms, most notably coughing, as easily as a high temperature.

Second, disinfecting tables is also pretty useless.  Not completely bad, just relatively minor in the scale of possible risks of infection.  Balls would be a better focus point, but even with those, they should be a relatively lower priority.

Availability of hand sanitizing is good, but only if people actually use it. Same thing with promoting social distancing.

I don't really see the point of signing up with a partner.  I assume it's to prevent people from mixing with strangers who might be infected.  But that would be a choice each person has and it's not likely to make much difference in limiting the spread of the disease.

On the other hand, fewer tables with bigger courts and enclosing with barriers is good, because it helps to distance people.  Another good rule might be to limit the number of people who might stand in a court at any given time (e.g., no spectators, coaches, scorekeepers, parents).

And they fail to address the largest risk, which is circulation of contaminated air.  Assuming face masks were optional, then you need a way to recycle and clean the air.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 11:43am
There aren't many places in the US where your risk is lower now than in April. Where I live (Texas) it is substantially higher (based on every statistic including number of people being admitted to hospitals).  I really think people should wear some kind of mask.  You may need to bring several, just like some people bring a bunch of shirts.  Idon't   think cleaning tables and hands are bad things per se, but it is the potential for airborne virus emitted by asymptomatic people that is the big problem a d if you ignore that no amount of hand washing will help you.



Edited by Baal - 06/14/2020 at 11:43am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 12:37pm
do you feel that a positive antibody test would clear you to behave normally?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

do you feel that a positive antibody test would clear you to behave normally?

Yes, with one caveat, which is that I would want to know the performance of the test (established senditivity and specificity) and I would have to trust the person carrying it out. Not all of the antibody tests out there are equally good.  A lot of them ARE good, though.  The one from Quest Diagnostics costs $120.  

I would find it quite liberating actually.  Personally I have zero reason to think I've been exposed so I'm not spending the money.  But if I had been out more, or had had some even minor symptoms, some reason to think I MIGHT have had it, I would probably go for it.


Edited by Baal - 06/14/2020 at 2:32pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There aren't many places in the US where your risk is lower now than in April. Where I live (Texas) it is substantially higher (based on every statistic including number of people being admitted to hospitals).  
This depends upon how you measure risk.  Most states, including mine, are experiencing surges in reported infections due to re-opening of businesses and activities.  However, this same is not necessarily true regarding hospitalizations and especially deaths.  While some states continue to see increases in those numbers (and Texas may be such a state), I think most do not.  So while my chances of being exposed to someone with covid-19 have gone up, my chances of severe illness are actually lower.

I do wish people would wear masks, though.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There aren't many places in the US where your risk is lower now than in April. Where I live (Texas) it is substantially higher (based on every statistic including number of people being admitted to hospitals).  
This depends upon how you measure risk.  Most states, including mine, are experiencing surges in reported infections due to re-opening of businesses and activities.  However, this same is not necessarily true regarding hospitalizations and especially deaths.  While some states continue to see increases in those numbers (and Texas may be such a state), I think most do not.  So while my chances of being exposed to someone with covid-19 have gone up, my chances of severe illness are actually lower.

I do wish people would wear masks, though.  

There are quite a few places were Covid-19  hospitalizations are increasing as well.  Obviously not everywhere. As of two days ago, hospitalizationnis increased in 12 states and 9 are holding steady.  It is increasing in Alaska, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Kentucky, Mississippi, Montana, North Carolina, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas and Utah.  Texas set its all time record yesterday.

Here it is up >36% since Memorial Day.


Edited by Baal - 06/14/2020 at 5:09pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There are quite a few places were Covud-19  hospitalizations are increasing as well.  Obviously not everywhere. Hospitalizationnis increased in 12 states and 9 are holding steady.  It is increasing in Alaska, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Kentucky, Mississippi, Montana, North Carolina, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas and Utah.  Texas set its all time record yesterday.

Here it is up 36% since Memorial Day.
I tend to focus more on deaths than hospitalizations. For example, Oregon's hospitalization rate jumped, but not it's death rate.  Also, some of those states have such small numbers to begin with that adding just a few victims creates a significant percentage jump. Conversely, some states (e.g., NY) already have such large numbers that it's hard to imagine them sustaining any jump in figures.

I despair of analysis that lump the whole US together or compare all states individually. It would be better to divide the states by a combination of demographics, common social mores, and government policy.  Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone doing that and I can't find the source data to do it myself (assuming I wanted to put that much time into it).

It would be interesting to see a study of why people are so reluctant to wear face masks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

do you feel that a positive antibody test would clear you to behave normally?

Yes, with one caveat, which is that I would want to know the performance of the test (established senditivity and specificity) and I would have to trust the person carrying it out. Not all of the antibody tests out there are equally good.  A lot of them ARE good, though.  The one from Quest Diagnostics costs $120.  

I would find it quite liberating actually.  Personally I have zero reason to think I've been exposed so I'm not spending the money.  But if I had been out more, or had had some even minor symptoms, some reason to think I MIGHT have had it, I would probably go for it.

The quest is what I was considering. I had something really nasty in late December early January, and gave it to others
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There are quite a few places were Covud-19  hospitalizations are increasing as well.  Obviously not everywhere. Hospitalizationnis increased in 12 states and 9 are holding steady.  It is increasing in Alaska, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Kentucky, Mississippi, Montana, North Carolina, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas and Utah.  Texas set its all time record yesterday.

Here it is up 36% since Memorial Day.
I tend to focus more on deaths than hospitalizations. For example, Oregon's hospitalization rate jumped, but not it's death rate.  Also, some of those states have such small numbers to begin with that adding just a few victims creates a significant percentage jump. Conversely, some states (e.g., NY) already have such large numbers that it's hard to imagine them sustaining any jump in figures.

I despair of analysis that lump the whole US together or compare all states individually. It would be better to divide the states by a combination of demographics, common social mores, and government policy.  Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone doing that and I can't find the source data to do it myself (assuming I wanted to put that much time into it).

It would be interesting to see a study of why people are so reluctant to wear face masks.

I'm sorrt to say this but you are once again posting nonsense Ben.  I don't have patience to go into too much detail, but understand that a lot of people who ended up in hospitals but who survive this are going to still have permanent or at the very least long lasting health problems. Pulmonary fibrosis, neurological issues, kidney issues, and more.  And we are not even close to being through this yet in places where a lot of MyTT members play.  Hospitalization is a good index of the prevalence of the virus in a locale because it doesn't depend on testing. Itis  also not hard to get that info.

I know people want to play and they need accurate information.  





Edited by Baal - 06/14/2020 at 6:16pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

do you feel that a positive antibody test would clear you to behave normally?

Yes, with one caveat, which is that I would want to know the performance of the test (established senditivity and specificity) and I would have to trust the person carrying it out. Not all of the antibody tests out there are equally good.  A lot of them ARE good, though.  The one from Quest Diagnostics costs $120.  

I would find it quite liberating actually.  Personally I have zero reason to think I've been exposed so I'm not spending the money.  But if I had been out more, or had had some even minor symptoms, some reason to think I MIGHT have had it, I would probably go for it.

The quest is what I was considering. I had something really nasty in late December early January, and gave it to others

Where you live that early.......     Did you travel?   Of course, that is flu season.


Edited by Baal - 06/14/2020 at 5:57pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I'm sorrt to say this but you are once again posting nonsense Ben.  I don't have patience to go into too much detail, but understand that a lot of people who ended up in hospitals but who survive this are going to still have permanent or at the very least long lasting health problems. Pulmonary fibrosis, neurological issues, kidney issues, and more.  And we are not even close to being through this yet in places where a lot of MyTT members play.  Hospitalization is a good index of the prevalence of the virus in a locale because it doesn't depend on testing. Itis  also not hard to get that info.

I know people want to play and they need accurate information.  
I assuming you're only referring to my first paragraph, about preferring mortality rates to hospitalizations? Assuming that all hospitalizations are the same, which isn't necessarily true, I haven't seen anything to indicate who gets those lasting health problems, or how often, or linking such effects to other health issues, such as smoking.  I prefer working with mortality rates because they're binary -- you are either dead or you're not.  It's a useful way to measure the impact of a disease for which there is no historical data and researchers are forced to do a lot of extrapolation.  That doesn't mean I don't consider hospitalizations serious, which I do.  On the other hand, I haven't seen anything to indicate that everyone (or even most of those) hospitalized are sure to suffer those various ongoing health consequences.

An interesting side note on hospitalizations: non-covid hospitalizations in Oregon have been lower during the pandemic.  There are two possible explanations for this: first, that people are engaging in less risky behavior and, second, that they're avoiding hospitals out of fear of the virus.  The last point was made to me recently by a hospital physician, who felt that people were avoiding treatment for serous problems because of covid-19, and then, when they finally come in, it's often too late.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 7:02pm
If you are afraid to be ouside without wearing a mask - you should stay home and do not come to the club. The worst thing you could do - playing in the mask and promoting the fear, social isolation and distrust, because that is what it is in addition to creating real havoc for your own immune system by wearing the mask.    

Edited by aksel67 - 06/14/2020 at 7:04pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by aksel67 aksel67 wrote:

If you are afraid to be ouside without wearing a mask - you should stay home and do not come to the club. The worst thing you could do - playing in the mask and promoting the fear, social isolation and distrust, because that is what it is in addition to creating real havoc for your own immune system by wearing the mask.    

Havoc to the immune system by wearing a mask?  You've posted that before.  It is really bad misinformation.  Don't  post it again.  Final warning.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 7:22pm
Ben, yes, just the first sentence, focusing on death rates.  The thing ISNT binary and it is a mistake to treat it like it is. You can live and still be seriously fu
The fact is most people won't end up in a hospital, but ~120,000 dead people in the US already and this thing can be unpredictable.  Of late my colleagues are seeing younger people..  

The best measure of the prevalence of this virus in your area is the hospitalization rate.


Edited by Baal - 06/14/2020 at 7:46pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 7:44pm
Clubs still closed in my area. I'm playing outdoors for now. Today was a bit windy so our levels dropped about 700 points. 

A masseuse practicing social distancing rubs me the wrong way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Clubs still closed in my area. I'm playing outdoors for now. Today was a bit windy so our levels dropped about 700 points. 


I'll admit I'm impressed at the number of people in your video wearing masks; that wouldn't be the case here. On the other hand, you're all outside on a windy day, which suggests to me that you don't need the face masking (...waiting for Baal to fall down on me like a ton of bricks...).

And this is in front of a shake shack?  So you presumably get a reward for each game you win?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2020 at 8:59pm
I'm just impressed at how well they played in a breeze.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2020 at 11:39am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Clubs still closed in my area. I'm playing outdoors for now. Today was a bit windy so our levels dropped about 700 points. 


I'll admit I'm impressed at the number of people in your video wearing masks; that wouldn't be the case here. On the other hand, you're all outside on a windy day, which suggests to me that you don't need the face masking (...waiting for Baal to fall down on me like a ton of bricks...).

And this is in front of a shake shack?  So you presumably get a reward for each game you win?

No. Their burgers and shakes are too small for me. The wind wasn't that strong and it was mostly a tail or head wind depending which side you had. I was on the tail wind side in the video so a normal looking shot wouldn't bounce out at me as expected or even bounce back toward the net. It's like playing against long pips which changes characteristics as the wind changes. It was also very easy for my shots to sail long.  
The best thing about the table outside shake shack is that they removed the publicly shared balls and rackets (for good reason). Who, other than us, would bring their own equipment? Never an issue getting table time.
A masseuse practicing social distancing rubs me the wrong way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2020 at 12:21pm
The local park district center opened for Skating and Fitness but not Table Tennis nor Basketball. Maybe they want the courts for Social Distancing the kids in Summer camps. Pickleball also closed.
Right hand: Stiga Allround NCT (74g) /Rasant Grip max/Talon OX red (total 135g)
Left hand: Stiga Allround WRB (71g)/Vega Europe max/Innova Ultra Light max (total 153g)
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