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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2020 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

That will happen as soon as unacceptably large numbers of middle-aged, middle-class, white people are dying.

There is no evidence this has occurred anywhere in the world nor that it will.

Thanks.  

Thanks for this response.  I guess the disease will.metamorphose and change its target group per BRS.  Or maybe America is just so full of people with comorbidities that this is what he really means.

Let's revisit this difference of opinion on New Year's Eve. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2020 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


The thing is that even with mass exposure, there haven't been as many antibodies in tested populations as expected.  And scientists mau have found other mechanisms that protect against the disease.that may or may not be forms of immunity. So I don't think you can purely infer immunity from antibody test results.

You might want to comment more about things you know something about.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2020 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

That will happen as soon as unacceptably large numbers of middle-aged, middle-class, white people are dying.

There is no evidence this has occurred anywhere in the world nor that it will.

Not too much detailed information is available expressing the anticipated distinction between the first wave and subsequent waves, information specifying that the nature of the subsequent waves will, on the actual affected participants, be different than the first wave in demographic terms.

The generalization of the second wave explanations I have seen seem to be "more of the same", not that the nature of the pandemic will change.  I would be interested in any information on the demographic distinctions anticipated in the second and third and fourth waves.

Thanks.  

Those data will indeed be important.  There are definitely younger people in hospitals with Covid-19,  and people who survive getting released pretty messed up. Nobody knows for how long.  Some people show symptoms for months and can't shake it (to the extent that they remain hospitalized for 60 or 90 days).  And yet one of my colleagues had a 60 year old patient on dialysis (a cancer survivor) who defeated Covid-19 in a few days.  

Why are we seeing sick middle aged people (and younger) in hospitals now?  Is it the biology of the virus?  Is it that non-old people figured the virus was over and in any case it wouldn't hurt them so they got exposed, while old people stayed home?   It's not known.  Maybe they were always there but didnt die so not reported as a "bad thing"  Right now age data in recently hospitalized patients here aren't available.  It will be very interesting to get real numbers rather than clinicians' impressions.

For sure age is a big risk factor among other things widely reported.  But this thing is pretty unpredictable.  So again, I urge forum members in the US to take this seriously and protect yourself, especially in places where cases are rising rapidly.  People in June kept complaining the rising cases in Texas were just due to increased testing.  Those people were very very wrong as evidenced by the hospital meltdown going on right now,  and the percentage of tests coming out positive.


Edited by Baal - 07/03/2020 at 8:44pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2020 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


The thing is that even with mass exposure, there haven't been as many antibodies in tested populations as expected.  And scientists mau have found other mechanisms that protect against the disease.that may or may not be forms of immunity. So I don't think you can purely infer immunity from antibody test results.

You might want to comment more about things you know something about.
I think it is better to say that I am wrong or that I have no clue what I am talking about, but this gives the impression that I am not saying anything that hasn't been said by experts before.

So you mean that everyone who has been exposed to the disease but doesn't catch it will have antibodies?  OR that everyone who has been exposed and infected but survived the disease will have antibodies that can be picked up in a basic antibody test?

I am not an expert but what I have read and watched argues that this is not the case and that just testing for antibodies has its limitations.

Are these misleading sources?  I have watched other things but these articles in general agree with what I have read.  Being locked up at home gives me a lot of time to waste.


"The researchers were surprised to find some patients who had never been exposed to COVID-19 also showed an immune response to SARS-CoV-2. As part of a control group, Sette's lab tested blood samples taken from people between 2015 and 2018, before the virus was circulating, and found about half of those had immune memory that could recognize the COVID-19 virus.

"This was really, really striking. It was actually unexpected," Sette said. "The most reasonable explanation for that is that there is some immune reactivity originating from being exposed to the common-cold coronavirus. There's a number of more benign human coronaviruses that cause just human colds."



"Studies of other coronaviruses, including the ones that cause SARS and MERS, show that T cells play integral roles in stamping out sickness, says Stephanie Langel, a virologist and immunologist at Duke University. It’s likely that the same will hold true for SARS-CoV-2. Compared to antibodies, however, T cells—which often hole up in hard-to-reach tissues like the lungs—are more difficult to extract and analyze. That makes T-cell detection unlikely to play much of a role in clinical tests for immune responses against SARS-CoV-2. For researchers, though, T cells “represent a wealth of knowledge” about how our immune systems deal with the new coronavirus, Langel says."

Another excerpt:

"Even antibodies with known neutralizing powers aren’t foolproof. Donna Farber, an immunologist at Columbia University who studies T-cell responses against airway viruses, says that some patients with high levels of neutralizing antibodies in their blood still succumb to COVID-19, another hint that other parts of the immune system are needed to reliably defeat this disease."



""Advanced analyses have now enabled us to map in detail the T-cell response during and after a COVID-19 infection. Our results indicate that roughly twice as many people have developed T-cell immunity compared with those who we can detect antibodies in."


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2020 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


I am not an expert but ...what I have read and watched argues that this is not the case and that just testing for antibodies has its limitations 


Note that T cell responses ARE forms of immunity,  as are rssponses of macrophages, NK cells etc.. but I should have read your comment more carefully.  It was not wrong.

In fact, I  have made that point  repeatedly (mostly at TTD I suspect, but I know you have seen that thread). There is no clear correlation between antibody titre and immune response.  There is a role for both innate immunity and adaptive immunity in Covid-19, both in terms of defense and in massive inflammation that occurs in some people.   Simple antibody serology to assess herd immunity cannot provide a valid answer.  Titres can be low and people can mount a strong secondary immune response,  and people with high titre in the hospital are sometimes the most ill. It seemed earlier you were trying to draw conclusions from studies of antibody prevalence in various locals but again, I read your comment too quickly.  

Immunology is complex.  Assays for immunological memory ( which involves both T cells and B cells) are hard to do.  Some data suggest that immunological memory to SARS lasted up to 17 years, but some other studies have suggested that some people can be infected with the same coronavirus more than once (most people have been infected by coronaviruses at some point).  People vary in their responses and some of this is genetic.  I think the balance of evidence suggests immunity to SARS-CoV2 will last  a while.  But maybe not for everyone.

So your last post does a good job of summarizing where the state of knowledge is.


Edited by Baal - 07/03/2020 at 11:46pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 9:15am
Hi,

For long now and into the future we have the COVID-19 conundrum of the relationship between the number of cases and the influence testing has on the number of cases.  It is a constant discussion.

This matter would be very easily resolved if we had one other type of statistic which is not available, namely sickness statistics.  If we knew, to some reasonable degree of accuracy, the number of sick among the number of cases, our perspective would vastly improve.  Without this available, all perspectives may be argued using assumptions the arguers prefer.

This is why the young adult population has the attitude they have; they are not sick, their friends are not sick, they don't personally know anyone who is sick, yet their world is turned upside down in job and school and social terms in a very serious manner.  The authorities flipped their world to the negative with devastating consequences for them.  

This holds true for many parents as well.  The parents are not sick and the kids are not sick, yet not having congregation institutions available (due to the broad-based societal response to the virus) in the form of schools, nurseries, child day care centers, and sports activities to augment their parenting responsibilities has made their lives nightmarish.  

The future could not be more unclear.  This unclearness is found in the major areas of the crushed economy and the congregation institutions that are the foundation of modern human societies.

The casualties of COVID-19 are great and varied, with certain authorities emphasizing the health effects to the exclusion of other serious matters that the general population must live with daily.  Many of the effects are permanent, including business bankruptcies in numbers that will have personal impacts on millions of families that these families will never recover from.

As this COVID-19 experience has been so distasteful for so many in so many ways, there is a emerging view of the future expressed within the topic of the future "normal".  Some are convinced the next normal will be a "new normal", that what was will be much altered for the foreseeable future, a time period measured in years.  

Another opinion on the future is strongly being formed that the next normal will be the old normal, which is to say that the way society did function will be the way society had functioned.  The old normal did not include facial coverings and social distancing; the opposite was true.

The old normal was how people wanted to live.  That desire continues.  Many recent examples exist that reveal people, given just a sliver of a chance, do not use facial coverings and do not social distance and do not self-quarantine.  This is because that is how they want to live.  As no human society in history has been organized on facial coverings and social distancing, this model is challenged in any attempt at implementation due to its uniqueness found in its inherent counterdistinctions to the many hundreds of thousands of years of human interaction we have some understanding of.

Thanks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 9:44am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

This is why the young adult population has the attitude they have; they are not sick, their friends are not sick, they don't personally know anyone who is sick, yet .

That is one theory.  I know a lot of people in Denmark, including many young people.  They were not sick, nor knew anyone who was.  Yet they broadly adhered to a lockdown far more stringent than ours.  Life there has now returned to normal because the country has basically eliminated the virus.  

In my opinion, which is all this can be, Danish young people did what Americans would not because the national culture there is communitarian.  America has a history of individualism, but we also have very powerful interests that have pushed through measures to atomize the population and make us all individually less secure.  I'll mention only the destruction of trade unions as an example.  

You could make an argument that every man for himself is an effective basis to organize a modern society.  It's a curious kind of freedom in my view, but reasonable people can disagree on this.  I don't see how anyone could argue that rugged individualism makes for an effective response to an epidemic of infectious disease. Some sense of responsibility for one's fellow citizens is needed.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 10:35am
Sorry disregard

Edited by cole_ely - 07/04/2020 at 10:39am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 12:38pm
That is one theory.  I know a lot of people in Denmark, including many young people.  They were not sick, nor knew anyone who was.  Yet they broadly adhered to a lockdown far more stringent than ours.  Life there has now returned to normal because the country has basically eliminated the virus.  

Your point concerning culture is exactly correct and the single most important point in the topic.

Cultural development is very complex and a fascinating subject.  The individualism you cite in America has many representations, from that which results in the extraordinarily positive down to the very worst behaviors.

In the specific case of COVID, it was that individualism mentality of the involved authorities that justified the cruelty that resulted from the despicably cavalier attitude they demonstrated toward the common person on the economic consequences of the decisions these authorities made to crush the economic foundation of so many tens of millions of America families. 

What should have happened in America is what did happen in the Western European countries; immediate, very strong economic support for their people, including wage and benefits support, job security long term, guaranteed retirement funds, school participation assurances, and universal health care.  For that kindness, for that caring, for that deep and sensitive concern for the people of the country, the people respected the directives of the government's approach, for their station in life was held up very well due to government actions. 

Conversely, in America, instead of our epidemiologists insisting on immediate and strong economic support at the time of the epidemiologists' recommendation on locking down the economy, they callously ignored this inevitable suffering that was caused by the enactment of their recommendations.  The panic paranoia of the attending politicians demonstrated the intellectual sophistication of a worm.

Because we are all individuals, this attitude in America was accepted.  Each to his own.  

The lock down consequences in America were enormously more severe economically at the personal level than Western Europe

Not one goddamn state unemployment system worked in COVID.  Not one.  The individual is responsible for their own employment and self-support, even if it is the government that intentionally destroyed their job.  That is America.  All the people who lost jobs and income due to a state Governor's decision are at fault.  That is the conclusion drawn from the support provided.

Ask the people of Denmark how many, as a consequence of the nation's COVID decision, are now living in their cars with their kids, or living on the street, or suffering severe non-COVID health problems.  Then, ask the same question to America.

Thanks.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

For long now and into the future we have the COVID-19 conundrum of the relationship between the number of cases and the influence testing has on the number of cases.  It is a constant discussion.

This matter would be very easily resolved if we had one other type of statistic which is not available, namely sickness statistics.  If we knew, to some reasonable degree of accuracy, the number of sick among the number of cases, our perspective would vastly improve.  Without this available, all perspectives may be argued using assumptions the arguers prefer.

This is why the young adult population has the attitude they have; they are not sick, their friends are not sick, they don't personally know anyone who is sick, yet their world is turned upside down in job and school and social terms in a very serious manner.  The authorities flipped their world to the negative with devastating consequences for them.  

This holds true for many parents as well.  The parents are not sick and the kids are not sick, yet not having congregation institutions available (due to the broad-based societal response to the virus) in the form of schools, nurseries, child day care centers, and sports activities to augment their parenting responsibilities has made their lives nightmarish.  

The future could not be more unclear.  This unclearness is found in the major areas of the crushed economy and the congregation institutions that are the foundation of modern human societies.

The casualties of COVID-19 are great and varied, with certain authorities emphasizing the health effects to the exclusion of other serious matters that the general population must live with daily.  Many of the effects are permanent, including business bankruptcies in numbers that will have personal impacts on millions of families that these families will never recover from.

As this COVID-19 experience has been so distasteful for so many in so many ways, there is a emerging view of the future expressed within the topic of the future "normal".  Some are convinced the next normal will be a "new normal", that what was will be much altered for the foreseeable future, a time period measured in years.  

Another opinion on the future is strongly being formed that the next normal will be the old normal, which is to say that the way society did function will be the way society had functioned.  The old normal did not include facial coverings and social distancing; the opposite was true.

The old normal was how people wanted to live.  That desire continues.  Many recent examples exist that reveal people, given just a sliver of a chance, do not use facial coverings and do not social distance and do not self-quarantine.  This is because that is how they want to live.  As no human society in history has been organized on facial coverings and social distancing, this model is challenged in any attempt at implementation due to its uniqueness found in its inherent counterdistinctions to the many hundreds of thousands of years of human interaction we have some understanding of.

Thanks.

Right now though a few things are clear in the Sun Belt:  Hospitalizations are up, % of tests that are positive are way up, ICU use from Covid-19 is way up.  Many deaths will follow but not at the same rate as before.  In fact, looking at western Europe and Asia provides clues as to how to get this under some degree of control.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

This is why the young adult population has the attitude they have; they are not sick, their friends are not sick, they don't personally know anyone who is sick, yet .

That is one theory.  I know a lot of people in Denmark, including many young people.  They were not sick, nor knew anyone who was.  Yet they broadly adhered to a lockdown far more stringent than ours.  Life there has now returned to normal because the country has basically eliminated the virus.  

In my opinion, which is all this can be, Danish young people did what Americans would not because the national culture there is communitarian.  America has a history of individualism, but we also have very powerful interests that have pushed through measures to atomize the population and make us all individually less secure.  I'll mention only the destruction of trade unions as an example.  

You could make an argument that every man for himself is an effective basis to organize a modern society.  It's a curious kind of freedom in my view, but reasonable people can disagree on this.  I don't see how anyone could argue that rugged individualism makes for an effective response to an epidemic of infectious disease. Some sense of responsibility for one's fellow citizens is needed.  

The national government in Denmark saw what happened elsewhere,  took responsibility, made tough decisions early on, provided clear guidance, enforced their lockdown, and provided necessary resources, including testing and PPE as well as plans for contact tracing.  That could have happened here, there was a detailed playbook to follow, but it didn't. So different states have gone their own way.  And no end in sight. It is depressing and frustrating and it should come as no surprise because biology doesn't care about bars and parties or whether some people  find masks to infringe on their freedoms.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 4:18pm
And no end in sight. It is depressing and frustrating

No finer summary could be expressed.

Thanks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 4:45pm
My test results from giving blood are antibody negative. I have not been exposed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

That is one theory.  I know a lot of people in Denmark, including many young people.  They were not sick, nor knew anyone who was.  Yet they broadly adhered to a lockdown far more stringent than ours.  Life there has now returned to normal because the country has basically eliminated the virus.  

Your point concerning culture is exactly correct and the single most important point in the topic.

Cultural development is very complex and a fascinating subject.  The individualism you cite in America has many representations, from that which results in the extraordinarily positive down to the very worst behaviors.

In the specific case of COVID, it was that individualism mentality of the involved authorities that justified the cruelty that resulted from the despicably cavalier attitude they demonstrated toward the common person on the economic consequences of the decisions these authorities made to crush the economic foundation of so many tens of millions of America families. 

What should have happened in America is what did happen in the Western European countries; immediate, very strong economic support for their people, including wage and benefits support, job security long term, guaranteed retirement funds, school participation assurances, and universal health care.  For that kindness, for that caring, for that deep and sensitive concern for the people of the country, the people respected the directives of the government's approach, for their station in life was held up very well due to government actions. 

Conversely, in America, instead of our epidemiologists insisting on immediate and strong economic support at the time of the epidemiologists' recommendation on locking down the economy, they callously ignored this inevitable suffering that was caused by the enactment of their recommendations.  The panic paranoia of the attending politicians demonstrated the intellectual sophistication of a worm.

Because we are all individuals, this attitude in America was accepted.  Each to his own.  

The lock down consequences in America were enormously more severe economically at the personal level than Western Europe

Not one goddamn state unemployment system worked in COVID.  Not one.  The individual is responsible for their own employment and self-support, even if it is the government that intentionally destroyed their job.  That is America.  All the people who lost jobs and income due to a state Governor's decision are at fault.  That is the conclusion drawn from the support provided.

Ask the people of Denmark how many, as a consequence of the nation's COVID decision, are now living in their cars with their kids, or living on the street, or suffering severe non-COVID health problems.  Then, ask the same question to America.

Thanks.


I think you nailed it.  The government provided very little to support the lockdown and expected people whose lives were trashed by it to continue to support it.  I think the issues start with the lack of testing and terrible leadership from the federal government which subsequently managed the issue like a political campaign rather than as a serious issue deserving a fully elaborated strategy.  In the end, if anything, it has revealed that principled leadership is very important for the future of this country and that narcissists or inspiring politicians should not be confused with competent leaders and crisis managers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

  

What should have happened in America is what did happen in the Western European countries; immediate, very strong economic support for their people, including wage and benefits support, job security long term, guaranteed retirement funds, school participation assurances, and universal health care.  For that kindness, for that caring, for that deep and sensitive concern for the people of the country, the people respected the directives of the government's approach, for their station in life was held up very well due to government actions. 

The lock down consequences in America were enormously more severe economically at the personal level than Western Europe

Not one goddamn state unemployment system worked in COVID.  Not one.  The individual is responsible for their own employment and self-support, even if it is the government that intentionally destroyed their job.  That is America.  All the people who lost jobs and income due to a state Governor's decision are at fault.  That is the conclusion drawn from the support provided.

Ask the people of Denmark how many, as a consequence of the nation's COVID decision, are now living in their cars with their kids, or living on the street, or suffering severe non-COVID health problems.  Then, ask the same question to America.

Thanks.


This is all true. Every bit of it.  Our quality of life will take a big hit for a long time.

There are other things too that I might as well mention. Even for people who didn't lose their jobs or businesses, the costs of treatment will be unbearably high for people who got really sick and recovered, even with health insurance, such as it is in the US.  Many families will have to make hard choices ,  maybe children won't be going to university after all.  People in Denmark don't have to  deal with that.   American hospitals are taking a beating too. The  Danish healthcare system  will be sustained by the government.  All of us in the US will pay higher health insurance premiums after this. Of course our TT clubs may not survive.  How many good teachers will quit because they won't feel safe in the fall?  How many of our favorite restaurants will be gone?  Cities will be even more bankrupt.  The infrastructure will decay. On and on.

This was going to be bad no matter what, but Europe will recover far sooner.


Edited by Baal - 07/04/2020 at 7:38pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2020 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

All of us in the US will pay higher health insurance premiums after this. 

I have the cheapest catastrophe health insurance on the U.S healthcare marketplace and they already are proposing a $100 per month increase. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2020 at 7:53am
"catastrophe health insurance"

I know what that phrase means: a monster deductible, the initial amount paid out of pocket prior to any insurance payments.  At one time, this category started at $5,000 for the deductible, which is a small amount in terms of medical care costs today but a very big amount for a large number of Americans.  For this "coverage", you still have premiums that many cannot afford.

I'm out of date on the current status of catastrophic medical insurance.  One doctor recently commented that he found it typical for patients with high quality, full medical insurance to have an $8,000 to $10,000 deductible.  "Full medical insurance" is a silly phrase in this context; a silly phrase but nobody is laughing.

Not only is America outstanding in personal bankruptcies numbers overall; the leading cause of these bankruptcies is medical costs.  And this prior to COVID.

I would like to express my happiness to you for being well prepared for a health catastrophe.  With this insurance, you will benefit when you or another that is "covered" under the insurance has a major negative health event.  All we need now is the catastrophe to benefit from the insurance.  Only in America among the developed countries would a medical insurance category apply to an event of the most serious nature as a catastrophe.

Readers may have noted the switch in this diatribe from "health insurance" to "medical insurance".  That switch is because this insurance is certainly not health insurance.  It is insurance to pay for medical system interventions, which is very distinct from the principles of health.  Health is a much different orientation.  

Few things in the advanced countries have caused greater suffering than the disingenuous correlation between health and medical intervention. 

A medical definition of health is an absence of a medically-defined diagnosis.  You may feel rotten all the time and be very unhealthy, yet if you have eluded a diagnosis, you are healthy.

I remember the 2012 London Olympics when, in the spectacular Opening Ceremony, an event to highlight a number of themes the organizers want to emphasize, a segment was included paying tribute to the British Health Care System.  As an American watching that, I slightly shook from the shock of this country's positive and proud view of their system.  This enormous pride for their medical system was in the brightest lights.  I sank deeper in my chair.
 
Thanks.    

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2020 at 7:56am
Here is a nice summary.

Jerome Powell, the head of the Federal Reserve, said that almost 40 percent of Americans earning less than $40,000 a year lost their jobs in March.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2020 at 8:51am
We have to learn from places that do certain things better.  There is nothing good about this pandemic but if that one idea permeates the US at least maybe some disasters won't be repeated. 

Most of the countries on the table in these links offer more or less universal healthcare to their people that is every bit as advanced as here.  In the US a large number of people are one health crisis away from economic disaster; a job loss away from not being covered; and life expectancy and infant mortality rates are embarrassing.  A lot of people have no health insurance at all. Even people here with expensive health insurance pay much more out of pocket than people in,  say,  France,  for pretty much all aspects of healthcare,  from prescription drugs to elective surgery.  As a nation we spend a lot more and get a lot less.  The next time you hear someone say "we have the greatest healthcare system in the world " tune them out.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268826/health-expenditure-as-gdp-percentage-in-oecd-countries/



Edited by Baal - 07/05/2020 at 2:25pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2020 at 6:01pm
This is a bit technical but a lot of forum members will be able to get through it without much trouble.  It reviews a lot about what is known about behavior of SARS-COV-2 in the air.  One key point, flying in a commercial aircraft right now would be pretty scary. 


I'm still experimenting with some different types of masks.  I check them on my road bike here in 100 degree Houston heat.  It's not a perfect test for TT (road bike exertion is greater than TT, but body and head are relatively immobile). But it's about all I can do.   Next week I'll post the ones that seem ok.

There are definite tradeoffs.  Basically the more protection the less comfort.  A key factor is what happens when you sweat heavily.  Some masks make it very hard to breathe when they get wet.  So far the only ones I've found truly viable for sports have one-way valves.  I worry quite a bit that those allow  for expelling of viruses to the outside (I have no idea how much)  which defeats a big part of their purpose.  For this reason  a growing number of places are saying that they are not compliant with their local mask rules.  They do filter the air you breathe.  But if everyone at a TT club  who was concerned  used one it might not matter? I honestly don't know.  The UnderArmour ones designed for sports  don't have valves but I haven't obtained one yet.


Edited by Baal - 07/05/2020 at 7:00pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 9:41am
Today 44% of the ICU beds in southeast Texas are occupied by Covid-19 patients, they are st 100% capacity, and the problem is Austin, San Antonio, Dallas, etc. are approaching the same predicament so no place to send the overflow.  Will the governor take additional steps? 

Edited by Baal - 07/06/2020 at 9:42am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 2:07pm
Thanks for these updates, Baal. I really appreciate your perspective!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 2:10pm
I see Denmark has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread (I haven't read recent posts in detail). Given that I was born and lived in Denmark for nearly 30 years, I can provide some more background. Danes - by an large - have complete faith that their government serves their interests and that it is corruption-free (side-note: politicians proposing to lower the top-end tax rates, which hovered around 60%, tended to lose elections). Denmark has opened to essentially normal (no masks required; some light social distancing measures are in place (<3 ft)) and yet their numbers remain low, which is stunning given that Danes are a very social people, with young people partying much harder than anything than what I have seen in the US (think of them as your standard Hobbit). A couple of important things to remember about Denmark: With the exception of immigrants (and their descendants) from the Middle East, it is an almost completely Caucasian country, and there is virtually no poverty or financial hardship (e.g., minimal homelessness; very few work multiple low-paying jobs to stay afloat). The government stepped in early and decisively, and people obeyed the orders for the greater good (Danes are rather obedient). Also, Denmark is a small country (~Delaware) with only 5.5 million people and a fairly uniform medium-high population density. I think it is easier to govern such a homogeneous country.          

Edited by patrickhrdlicka - 07/06/2020 at 2:12pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 2:21pm
Surveys indicate consistently find that Danes are the happiest people on earth.  It is one of my favorite places.  Parts of it remind me of a modern version of the Shire.  But they are a lot taller than hobbits.

I would like them even more if their language didn't sound like a reasonable Scandinavian choking on a potato.  (I lived in Sweden as a kid).

Right now I would  be quite happy to be there right now, since I seem to spend a lot of time here writing my "journal of the plague year"


Edited by Baal - 07/06/2020 at 2:34pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 4:44pm
I'm playing table tennis again.

/thread
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 9:25pm
how did it go?  Did your club do anything different?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 9:56pm
Hit on the robot about an hour while wearing one of the disposable surgical type masks.  Had no real issues playing with it on.  

I know it does not give me that much protection, but if my opponent and I both wore one I think it would make things much safer.  At least that is what I understand from the reading I have done.  

Those of you with more knowledge please  comment on increase in safety (or not) if both players wear disposable surgical type masks (not N95 type).

Mark


Edited by mjamja - 07/06/2020 at 10:29pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Hit on the robot about an hour while wearing one of the disposable surgical type masks.  Had no real issues playing with it on.  

I know it does not give me that much protection, but if my opponent and I both wore one I think it would make things much safer.  At least that is what I understand from the reading I have done.  

Those of you with more knowledge please  comment on increase in safety (or not) if both players wear disposablesurgical type masks (not N95 type).

Mark

I can't remember mark do you wear glasses?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Hit on the robot about an hour while wearing one of the disposable surgical type masks.  Had no real issues playing with it on.  

I know it does not give me that much protection, but if my opponent and I both wore one I think it would make things much safer.  At least that is what I understand from the reading I have done.  

Those of you with more knowledge please  comment on increase in safety (or not) if both players wear disposablesurgical type masks (not N95 type).

Mark

I can't remember mark do you wear glasses?

Yes, I wear glasses.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/06/2020 at 10:59pm
I can't even shop with a mask without fogging mine. Was it a problem for you?
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