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Fulanodetal View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2019 at 12:41pm
"TT has been and remains a primarily male-dominant sport, which also unfortunately has resulted in a too-prevalent culture of misogynism; whether overt or subvert, it exists and until enough of the lonely men wise up with sincere positive attitude and behavioral changes, nothing will change. The ball is in your court, Guys."

What an absolute load of crap this is. I have never ever witnessed any act that can be described as misogynistic at any club that I've practiced at, not by a mile. Quite the contrary. If you're gonna make  general statements like that you are going to have to be specific. Also here at this blog I have hardly read any post that can be called misogynistic. As if society was not gynocentric enough. This is the problem with feminism. Feminists want to perpetuate this narrative that can be summed up with "men bad, women victim" . And this is bullshit. Painting an entire gender as a perpetrator is by definition a Hasty Generalization fallacy.

Women have agency. If they perceive table tennis is for geeks and nerds, then they will do something else. This is what happened with video games 20 years ago. Then games became more popular. 

It is a matter of  perception. Not a matter of Male toxicity or whatever bs you want to push.

FdT


Edited by Fulanodetal - 09/08/2019 at 12:42pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2019 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Alisha_Hooksit Alisha_Hooksit wrote:

Tassie52: >>If the way male members of table tennis forums speak about women is any indication of the way women are treated in clubs, then it's hardly surprising there's low participation rates, is it?<<

Originally posted by KleinesDickesAilton KleinesDickesAilton wrote:

This is good start. Moving on, how can we increase the percentage of women (of course not decreasing the number of men, but increasing the number of womenWink) playing in our clubs?

TT has been and remains a primarily male-dominant sport, which also unfortunately has resulted in a too-prevalent culture of misogynism; whether overt or subvert, it exists and until enough of the lonely men wise up with sincere positive attitude and behavioral changes, nothing will change. The ball is in your court, Guys.

Depends on where you look.  I have seen many women at clubs in China and Japan.  Are those countries less misogynistic than others?  Good luck making that argument.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/08/2019 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"TT has been and remains a primarily male-dominant sport, which also unfortunately has resulted in a too-prevalent culture of misogynism; whether overt or subvert, it exists and until enough of the lonely men wise up with sincere positive attitude and behavioral changes, nothing will change. The ball is in your court, Guys."

What an absolute load of crap this is. I have never ever witnessed any act that can be described as misogynistic at any club that I've practiced at, not by a mile. Quite the contrary. If you're gonna make  general statements like that you are going to have to be specific. Also here at this blog I have hardly read any post that can be called misogynistic. As if society was not gynocentric enough. This is the problem with feminism. Feminists want to perpetuate this narrative that can be summed up with "men bad, women victim" . And this is bullshit. Painting an entire gender as a perpetrator is by definition a Hasty Generalization fallacy.

Women have agency. If they perceive table tennis is for geeks and nerds, then they will do something else. This is what happened with video games 20 years ago. Then games became more popular. 

It is a matter of  perception. Not a matter of Male toxicity or whatever bs you want to push.

FdT

I'm not sure if that's true. I went to the USATT nationals this year, and during all of the games I saw where women were playing, a group of men stood around outside the barriers heckling them. Every man held a "WOMEN SUCK!" sign, or the equivalent, and chanted terrible things. They cheered loudest when the girls whiffed a serve, giving them sarcastic compliments and such. 

In fact, the insulting activity was so popular, I setup a small booth selling posters with misogynistic sayings on them. But, business became so good I had to upgrade to not one, but three LARGE booths just so I could keep up with the demand. Before I knew it, the entire venue was drowned out with the noises from these vile men berating the women and applauding all of their mistakes. Women were fleeing the building in droves, crying profusely and fearing for their lives. They left behind scattered paddle cases, gym bags, and expensive blades strewn about the venue. I collected all of them myself, and sold the items at the next day's tournaments. 


Edited by obesechopper - 09/08/2019 at 1:47pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 12:16am
Tbh one thing I noticed in TT clubs is that guys are typically quite selfish when practicing. Very few are willing to practice basic countering and refuse to block properly for other people. They will just start looping at full power as soon as possible. It's as if there is an arms race on power and spin LOL 

Whereas women tend to love counter practice and are comfortable making sure that both players get a good practice out of the session. When I see them hit with each other many can sustain very long rallies. 

I personally enjoy a mutual benefit training session with a gal compared to a one sided session with most guys... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 12:47am
Originally posted by Alisha_Hooksit Alisha_Hooksit wrote:

Tassie52: >>If the way male members of table tennis forums speak about women is any indication of the way women are treated in clubs, then it's hardly surprising there's low participation rates, is it?<<

Originally posted by KleinesDickesAilton KleinesDickesAilton wrote:

This is good start. Moving on, how can we increase the percentage of women (of course not decreasing the number of men, but increasing the number of womenWink) playing in our clubs?

TT has been and remains a primarily male-dominant sport, which also unfortunately has resulted in a too-prevalent culture of misogynism; whether overt or subvert, it exists and until enough of the lonely men wise up with sincere positive attitude and behavioral changes, nothing will change. The ball is in your court, Guys.

Could you point to specific behaviours? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 8:49am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"TT has been and remains a primarily male-dominant sport, which also unfortunately has resulted in a too-prevalent culture of misogynism; whether overt or subvert, it exists and until enough of the lonely men wise up with sincere positive attitude and behavioral changes, nothing will change. The ball is in your court, Guys."

What an absolute load of crap this is. I have never ever witnessed any act that can be described as misogynistic at any club that I've practiced at, not by a mile. Quite the contrary. If you're gonna make  general statements like that you are going to have to be specific. Also here at this blog I have hardly read any post that can be called misogynistic. As if society was not gynocentric enough. This is the problem with feminism. Feminists want to perpetuate this narrative that can be summed up with "men bad, women victim" . And this is bullshit. Painting an entire gender as a perpetrator is by definition a Hasty Generalization fallacy.

Women have agency. If they perceive table tennis is for geeks and nerds, then they will do something else. This is what happened with video games 20 years ago. Then games became more popular. 

It is a matter of  perception. Not a matter of Male toxicity or whatever bs you want to push.

FdT

I'm not sure if that's true. I went to the USATT nationals this year, and during all of the games I saw where women were playing, a group of men stood around outside the barriers heckling them. Every man held a "WOMEN SUCK!" sign, or the equivalent, and chanted terrible things. They cheered loudest when the girls whiffed a serve, giving them sarcastic compliments and such. 

In fact, the insulting activity was so popular, I setup a small booth selling posters with misogynistic sayings on them. But, business became so good I had to upgrade to not one, but three LARGE booths just so I could keep up with the demand. Before I knew it, the entire venue was drowned out with the noises from these vile men berating the women and applauding all of their mistakes. Women were fleeing the building in droves, crying profusely and fearing for their lives. They left behind scattered paddle cases, gym bags, and expensive blades strewn about the venue. I collected all of them myself, and sold the items at the next day's tournaments. 

You guys are really funny, I'm dying with laughter here.  Way to demonstrate how women get silenced.  That combination of fake outrage  and ridicule is powerful stuff.  

I wonder if you are even self-aware enough to know what a performance of the ignorant, "I've never seen it so it never happens." male stereotype you just played out.  But it goes over well to the audience because it's 99.9% men here.  I wonder why that is anyway?  I guess women just aren't interested in table tennis.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 9:12am
Male here.  While I dislike sweeping generalizations as much as the next guy or gal, anecdotal evidence is just that too.

Here's my $.02.  Yes, I perceive misogeny in male-dominated groups often.  And I don't consider it quite hidden, at that.  Sometimes overt, in terms of sexual predatory behaviour, but must often in a more subtle tongue-in-cheek fashion.  Slight transgressions disguised as playfulness jests — yet targeted solely, and quite intensely, at women.

Females perceives as attractive get a different treatment from females not fitting stereotypical sexual attractiveness criteria, and the "non-attractive" females get harassed in different ways from the "attractive" ones.  The non-attractive ones get dismissed (through all kinds of body shaming, often) and excluded from the group in doing so, the attractive ones are marginalized by a constant stream of innuendo jokes.

Not all males do this and it doesn't happen every single second at every single place.  Yet it's definitely observable in male groups, is a prevalent phenomenon, and it's next to impossible to turn that group dynamic around.  The penalty for speaking against it is social exclusion.

The offhand dismissal, to me, is rather typical of the phenomenon.  I wasn't being sexually aggressive, I was just browsing through my brazilian bubble butt thong collection in front of you frantically.  Nooo, that's not a provocation.  And if you're offfended I'll blame your oversensitivity.   These things...


Edited by YoAss - 09/09/2019 at 9:13am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 9:56am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

What's the percentage of women in the TT club you go to?
 
Yeah, around 10% Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 10:38am
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

What's the percentage of women in the TT club you go to?
Yeah, around 10% Confused
===============
In our club, it is around 5%.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 10:56am
In USA & Canada , I think more young females may participate if the camps were all girl or all women. I think parents may feel safer in such an environment.  

           Also table-tennis is extinct in North America but for foreign born (mostly Chinese & Indian and few Euros like Russians).   How many American-born white or black girls (or even boys) are members of USATT ?  Total under 10 ?  Based on this statistic I think the only way to attract girls may be to offer table-tennis as a side show to say tennis or volleyball or gymnastics or figure-skating or soccer camps etc where best athletes come in girls and hopefully some will get hooked on table-tennis even as second or third sport & few others may be rejected by other sports (due to sheer volume of athletes in glamor sports like figure-skating or gymnastics or girl's soccer)  but still very athletic & very good enough for table-tennis.    
     USATT & CTTA must also accept and adjust to the reality that table-tennis can never be the first sport for youth. This is not a knock on table-tennis but just plain reality in North America unlike in Europe or Asia where table-tennis is equal to other sports in schools .  So USATT (CTTA)  needs to find ways of promoting the sport even as second or third sport in schools 
    And promote it much stronger in college university levels where at least most of the players are graduate foreign students who may help promote the sport at under-graduate level.  USATT should make constant push to make table-tennis an NCAA sport  

   The retention rate in general for table-tennis will be extremely low regardless, at all ages & genders in North America due to psychotic assumptions that "ping-pong" is an easy game that you can "master" in few weeks if not even days, while fact remains that "table-tennis" has evolved into being easily the most complicated "individual" sport there is (like sort of playing chess while downhill skiing).
We all know the familiar example :- It happens everyday in a club in North America where a clueless (American-born) "ping-pong" player walks into a table-tennis club and asks for the best player, only to lose to the lowest player in the club and leave in shock never to return, which is sad because most if not all of these quitters may be good or decent athletes and may make it in table-tennis if they stayed for an year or two. This is why I do not support daily visitor players. May be clubs should give deep discount to first year players to get them hooked and not waste time on transient quitters. <Being a super-wealthy drug-dealer myself I know how to hook elementary school children to drugs by giving first 10 or so packs free>    


Edited by Decin_Nebo - 09/09/2019 at 11:18am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

 If you're gonna make  general statements like that you are going to have to be specific. 


Huh ?   ROTFL  Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 1:02pm
""TT has been and remains a primarily male-dominant sport, which also unfortunately has resulted in a too-prevalent culture of misogynism;"

yes Decin_Nebo, that is a general statement made without being specific enough. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH ASKING TO BE SPECIFIC?!!??!! I reject this grievance seeking culture where everything male is perceived to be toxic. If you're going to be this paranoid, then perhaps it is a good thing that you stay away from EVIL table tennis clubs. We dont need this kind of crap. We go to the club to have fun.

Table Tennis has many benefits besides the physical activity (cardio). There's also the benefit of making friends that have at least this activity in common. I have read studies that indicate that TT helps in staving off Alzheimer's. If the western women fail to see the benefits, then that is on their court, not ours. Plus, TT is just fun! I mean it's obvious!

Perhaps one way to entice more female players is to have more female coaches. I know that works at CCTTA. Unfortunately, once they reach the age when they have to go to college, students no longer have time to practice. Boys AND girls. 
I know at the CCTTA they have a good number of female coaches, and I do know the head coach there. She would definitely not tolerate any kind of misconduct by any of the boys.

Again, I reject this silly notion that there is PREVALENT misogyny . You're going to have to prove that. Anyone can make a claim without offering proof. I suppose there will be some. But it is not that prevalent.

"Male here.  While I dislike sweeping generalizations as much as the next guy or gal, anecdotal evidence is just that too.

Here's my $.02.  Yes, I perceive misogeny in male-dominated groups often.  And I don't consider it quite hidden, at that.  Sometimes overt, in terms of sexual predatory behaviour, but must often in a more subtle tongue-in-cheek fashion.  Slight transgressions disguised as playfulness jests — yet targeted solely, and quite intensely, at women."

So your perception is not anecdotal evidence? Do you see the irony here? ever heard of the term "Cherry Picking"? where you count the hits and discount the misses!?...



FdT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 1:18pm
Boys being silly here... I do bjj, which was primarily a male sport as well, with barely any women participating in it. Nowadays, it is trendy and so women try it out more often despite the evil males training there.

And in bjj, your genital/boobs etc are literally rubbing against another person. Somehow life goes on doing this, without too much trouble. Thinking a woman cant bat a ball around across the table from a man is just comical... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 1:18pm
Quite the contrary, I'm contributing anecdotal evidence solely based on personal experience, and disclaimed it explicitly as such clearly and upfront.

While certainly anecdotal, that still means it's a very real phenomenon with a sample size of 1.  It does not generalize, nevertheless it is also not to be denied categorically.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:


yes Decin_Nebo, that is a general statement made without being specific enough. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH ASKING TO BE SPECIFIC?!!??!! 
FdT

ROTFL again 

You said "if you are going to make 'general' statements"  So to start with , it is agreed by all that the statement is 'general' and NOT 'specific'.  Then you go on and contradict yourself and ask for something 'specific' that is agreed by all to be 'general' to start with

Have a nice day
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by YoAss YoAss wrote:

Male here.  While I dislike sweeping generalizations as much as the next guy or gal, anecdotal evidence is just that too.

Here's my $.02.  Yes, I perceive misogeny in male-dominated groups often.  And I don't consider it quite hidden, at that.  Sometimes overt, in terms of sexual predatory behaviour, but must often in a more subtle tongue-in-cheek fashion.  Slight transgressions disguised as playfulness jests — yet targeted solely, and quite intensely, at women.

Females perceives as attractive get a different treatment from females not fitting stereotypical sexual attractiveness criteria, and the "non-attractive" females get harassed in different ways from the "attractive" ones.  The non-attractive ones get dismissed (through all kinds of body shaming, often) and excluded from the group in doing so, the attractive ones are marginalized by a constant stream of innuendo jokes.

Not all males do this and it doesn't happen every single second at every single place.  Yet it's definitely observable in male groups, is a prevalent phenomenon, and it's next to impossible to turn that group dynamic around.  The penalty for speaking against it is social exclusion.

The offhand dismissal, to me, is rather typical of the phenomenon.  I wasn't being sexually aggressive, I was just browsing through my brazilian bubble butt thong collection in front of you frantically.  Nooo, that's not a provocation.  And if you're offfended I'll blame your oversensitivity.   These things...


Yes, I think this is pretty much what I have perceived too.

A mostly unrelated issue affecting all kinds of sports, especially TT, is that there are so many other competing ways to play sports and spend time.  So American kids regardless of gender are just statistically far more likely to pick some other sport unless maybe their parents introduce them to TT (because there are so many choices).  And mostly those parents (whose kids play TT) are immigrants from elsewhere.  So this is true for both boys and girls. Independent of creepy guys, are girls likely to find TT aesthetically pleasing, or would they rather do gymnastics or dance, or soccer or tennis, or mountain biking or.......  to infinity.  


Edited by Baal - 09/09/2019 at 3:38pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by YoAss YoAss wrote:

Male here.  While I dislike sweeping generalizations as much as the next guy or gal, anecdotal evidence is just that too.

Here's my $.02.  Yes, I perceive misogeny in male-dominated groups often.  And I don't consider it quite hidden, at that.  Sometimes overt, in terms of sexual predatory behaviour, but must often in a more subtle tongue-in-cheek fashion.  Slight transgressions disguised as playfulness jests — yet targeted solely, and quite intensely, at women.

Females perceives as attractive get a different treatment from females not fitting stereotypical sexual attractiveness criteria, and the "non-attractive" females get harassed in different ways from the "attractive" ones.  The non-attractive ones get dismissed (through all kinds of body shaming, often) and excluded from the group in doing so, the attractive ones are marginalized by a constant stream of innuendo jokes.

Not all males do this and it doesn't happen every single second at every single place.  Yet it's definitely observable in male groups, is a prevalent phenomenon, and it's next to impossible to turn that group dynamic around.  The penalty for speaking against it is social exclusion.

The offhand dismissal, to me, is rather typical of the phenomenon.  I wasn't being sexually aggressive, I was just browsing through my brazilian bubble butt thong collection in front of you frantically.  Nooo, that's not a provocation.  And if you're offfended I'll blame your oversensitivity.   These things...
I am glad I read that. It totally resumes my observations. 

The only way I can understand (of course without approving) misogynistic behaviors in a tt club is when acknowledging that a person shows a lot of their personality when playing table tennis; so women will open themselves to strangers when playing and some men in the mystery of their dickhead will interpret it as a window of opportunity; then the staring starts and sooner or later, flat out dumb remarks will come along stupid smiles, especially from shy men who are not comfortable talking to women they find pretty. Eventually those women quit such clubs and only the die hard women will stick around because they are addicted to the game so they can manage it better.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 6:31pm
Wow. I don't think I've seen any of this in any of the clubs I play at. That's kinda sad to hear.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 6:59pm
"Wow. I don't think I've seen any of this in any of the clubs I play at. That's kinda sad to hear."

Don't believe these claims mickd. Like yourself, I have not witnessed any act or behavior that could be considered inappropriate at all. These people are simply virtue signaling and finding grievances where there is none to address. 

FdT

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 7:03pm
As a general rule, women in the United states don't play sports after their mid twenties.  Some do obviously, but a low percentage.  I'm like mickd I've never seen or heard of anything negative happening in the clubs where I play.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 7:16pm
Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything because I thought the people above were being sarcastic, but more comments kept coming in. So maybe there was some seriousness to them. That's good to hear that in most cases, it's not like that.

When I visited the UK a few years ago, I went to a local club there. There were a few ladies out of about 10 people. I played with some and tried to coach some a little. Everyone was really nice and friendly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 7:57pm
"Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything because I thought the people above were being sarcastic, but more comments kept coming in"

yes, obessechopper was being sarcastic. 


FdT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything because I thought the people above were being sarcastic, but more comments kept coming in. So maybe there was some seriousness to them. That's good to hear that in most cases, it's not like that.

When I visited the UK a few years ago, I went to a local club there. There were a few ladies out of about 10 people. I played with some and tried to coach some a little. Everyone was really nice and friendly.

Of course, some of that was sarcasm, but sometimes (I believe rarely) stupid stuff happens. As other posters have mentioned it has virtually little to do with the sport's lack of participation (by both genders).

As an example, of stupid/weird/criminal stuff, I knew a female whose car tires were slashed because she refused to have lunch with some idiot who played at the same community center... yes the police came and took a report. 

I have heard other stories, but they are quite rare and it is definitely not greater than what occurs in other sports and other endeavors. There have been plenty of documented sex abuse scandals in virtually every sport. One example:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Gymnastics_sex_abuse_scandal
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 11:47pm
in another thread I linked to this one, maybe you'll think it's valid: http://mytabletennis.net/FORUM/forum_posts.asp?TID=86727&PID=1077290&title=tt-business-model#1077290

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"Wow. I don't think I've seen any of this in any of the clubs I play at. That's kinda sad to hear."

Don't believe these claims mickd. Like yourself, I have not witnessed any act or behavior that could be considered inappropriate at all. These people are simply virtue signaling and finding grievances where there is none to address. 

That's quite an accusation there, and a fallacy to boot.

The fact that you haven't witnessed it doesn't mean it does not mean it does not exist.  Quit the contrary, the fact that others have (myself included) seems to suggest a blind spot, or an explicit unwillingness to perceive, to acknowlege, or both.

As a club manager, I have to keep an open eye.  Whenever I see women (or LBGTQ's, for that matter), or the disabled, or the young players with social disorders we have being marginalized, I have to act in order to maintain the basic safety for all of the sporting environment.  Do I often have to?  No, not as long as I call a halt to things before they spiral into uncontrollability.

Innuendo, snide remarks, or singular focus on physical attibutes exclusively -- it doesn't matter whether positive ("nice ass") or negative ("hey ugly!") -- are made every know and then, with the common excuse when called upon that they were made in jest.  Well, it's not so funny if that's all a person gets to hear all the time -- and again, it doesn't matter whether it's about boobs, glasses, zits, or body fat, or whatever.

On a more positive note, these issues rarely (but not never) come up during actual gameplay.  Although there are spectators out there that stubbornly categorize all female athletes on the hot-or-not scale of things only (we can see that in the plethora of threads, here and on other forums, on which you can hold your breath waiting for such remarks whenever a female player is mentioned).

You can pretend it's not there.  And I may be oversensitive to it.  If so, I regard that as erring on the side of caution, which is the unavoidable hazard I'm willing to take.

But you don't get to dismiss that as whiteknighting, virtue signalling, and to simply discard these sensitivities as a needless drive to "find grievances where none exist".  We can well do without that.


Edited by YoAss - 09/11/2019 at 3:58am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 11:22am
I'm reminded of the kid who gets to be hall monitor for the day... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 7:43pm
YoAss, do you see a disconnect between your User Name and what you are espousing on this thread?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 8:16pm
"YoAss, do you see a disconnect between your User Name and what you are espousing on this thread?"


His head is so far up his, he can't see that he keeps cherry picking and making stupid statements.

FdT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"YoAss, do you see a disconnect between your User Name and what you are espousing on this thread?"


His head is so far up his, he can't see that he keeps cherry picking and making stupid statements.

FdT
I thought yoass was animated by things he saw and made him aware and concerned. He comes positively to underline that a ping pong club should follow rules closer to a corporate office when it’s about hr and further away from recess time in middle school.
I see you and the person you quote as not caring, in a tunnel vision that ignores women’s buying power; that represents probably the best target for the game’s popularity, they will teach their kids can’t you see???? So your tunnel vision that ignores women and that does not wonder why their presence is so low, I don’t give a flying 729. I think you’re happy as it is in your comfort and I’m happy for you but frankly you are not much I care either.



Edited by stiltt - 09/10/2019 at 9:00pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 10:15pm
ok folks .Behave.
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