Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Would banning on-court coaching for just the CNT..
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Would banning on-court coaching for just the CNT..

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
racquetsforsale View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/02/2010
Location: at the table
Status: Offline
Points: 1279
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Would banning on-court coaching for just the CNT..
    Posted: 12/10/2019 at 4:37pm
How much technical and/or tactical advantage do the top CNT players have over others in the top 50?

Would banning on-court coaching for just the CNT be enough to level the playing field considerably for everyone else?

Back to Top
BRS View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/08/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1092
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 5:02pm
No.
Back to Top
ZingyDNA View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/19/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2416
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

How much technical and/or tactical advantage do the top CNT players have over others in the top 50?

Would banning on-court coaching for just the CNT be enough to level the playing field considerably for everyone else?

 
I think it'll have significant effects. Don't think it'll be enough to level the field, though. Their preparation is even more important IMO.
Back to Top
tom View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2294
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

How much technical and/or tactical advantage do the top CNT players have over others in the top 50?

Would banning on-court coaching for just the CNT be enough to level the playing field considerably for everyone else?

In closer matches for the relative newbies it should make a difference but how could this rule be implemented?
Back to Top
mts388 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 03/21/2014
Location: Sonora CA
Status: Offline
Points: 2049
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 5:33pm
Not being good enough to beat top players is an extremely poor reason to handicap them.  Why strive to be the best, when you can handicap them to level the field.  
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13642
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 7:38pm
I think it should be banned at all levels.  People should have to figure it out on their own during the match.

But in terms of CNT, on rare occasions it might make a difference, but the CNT players are just better.  It is the entire system, not just what happens with a coach during a match.  And coaches from Japan, Germany etc. are good too.


Edited by Baal - 12/10/2019 at 7:41pm
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13642
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 7:43pm
Indeed at amateur  levels it is arguably inequitable if one player has a coach and another dosen't.

Make it like tennis.  No coaching during the match.
Back to Top
jfolsen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 03/15/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 817
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 8:06pm
While I agree with Baal in theory (that people should figure it out for themselves), the reality is that lots of coaching was going on prior to the new relaxed conditions. And since most matches in the USA have no referee it was unenforceable. Hand signals, foreign languages, parents, you name it. Now I don't worry about it.
Back to Top
racquetsforsale View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/02/2010
Location: at the table
Status: Offline
Points: 1279
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Not being good enough to beat top players is an extremely poor reason to handicap them.  Why strive to be the best, when you can handicap them to level the field.  

The argument would be different if it came down to on-court coaching. Hence my other questions.
If the CNT can beat everyone else consistently based on technical superiority alone, that's one thing. If on court coaching is also key, then no amount of "striving to be the best" alone on the part of the other players' will be enough, unless the caliber of coaching available to them also catches up.

On another note, if one account for the bulk of resources it takes China to produce top players, and could calculate a performance to resource input ratio, would that ratio be higher, lower, or about the same as everyone else's? In other words, is China spending a disproportionate large amount of resources to stay just a little bit ahead?





Back to Top
hunkeelin View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/22/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 8:52pm

To answer the question, it would severely handicap cnt team.

To others coaching is part of the game. If done right the athlete are just chess pieces and the coaches are the chess master
Back to Top
penholderxxx View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/19/2016
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 330
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 9:30pm
" While I agree with Baal in theory (that people should figure it out for themselves), the reality is that lots of coaching was going on prior to the new relaxed conditions. And since most matches in the USA have no referee it was unenforceable. Hand signals, foreign languages, parents, you name it. Now I don't worry about it. " - jfolsen


Between what we wish for and what is practical.
I am of the opinion that in so far as the on court coaching does not intentionally delay or wilfully disrupt the course of a match, it is actually good for the sport.
Seeing how the sport of table tennis has evolved and developed, on court coaching, the interactions between the player and the coach though limited has become integral and part of the match scene.
Sorry but I feel the reasons expressed by the OP do not have much merits.

Iloveplayingtabletennis
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: West Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 16645
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Not being good enough to beat top players is an extremely poor reason to handicap them.  Why strive to be the best, when you can handicap them to level the field.  

The argument would be different if it came down to on-court coaching. Hence my other questions.
If the CNT can beat everyone else consistently based on technical superiority alone, that's one thing. If on court coaching is also key, then no amount of "striving to be the best" alone on the part of the other players' will be enough, unless the caliber of coaching available to them also catches up.

On another note, if one account for the bulk of resources it takes China to produce top players, and could calculate a performance to resource input ratio, would that ratio be higher, lower, or about the same as everyone else's? In other words, is China spending a disproportionate large amount of resources to stay just a little bit ahead?
this is good stuff, not necessarily anti Chinese as it may appear at first, just a theory based on numbers that are there to grab: it is the national sport played everywhere in a 1.4 billion people country since around 1952 thanks to the central government policy. Even if the coaching was bad  and the pyramid of talents was poorly organized (they are not) at the level of the country, there would still be enough good players to form a NT to win it all. 

Yes, China injects many more resources than anybody else into the sport so what? Are you asking whether or not it's even worth fighting them? it's a good question and the answer might be "maybe not!"

I have a question: is there a critical mass of players above which it does not help a country to get more? I think maybe yes but in France we have 200,000 licensed players (paying a usatt equivalent membership) and 17% of families have a table; Germany has 630,000 licensed players. Shouldn't that be enough? I think it would if the parents were pushing their kids towards excellence the way Chinese families do, which is not good nor bad; it is just a different social and cultural system that produces better players. I think that's by far the major factor, the higher drive to make it. I could see a French mom telling her husband to not push her son that hard because "he needs to have a childhood like other kids for his own good." to which I adhere totally but then they need to understand that the kid won't match the best in the world that way since other people are pushed harder. 

In Japan and Korea, I do not think kids are pushed that hard either, at least mentally during their childhood. If the drills and training sessions should be about the same, the mental conditioning from childhood on is by far superior to anywhere else, it's a question of culture. That and the number of players make China not a little bit ahead but far ahead. I think the difference in level is much more than we think.

The advent of the speed glue ban, the new serving rules, the chiquita and the plastic ball changed all that though and now it seems they are more reachable but not for long imo. It takes more than one generation to digest such a new stroke like the chiquita and adjust all strategies and tactics about it and it seems China is done with their incorporation; same as Korea, France, Germany and Japan. Now that we have a leveled playing field again, China will dominate again, the actual apparent success of Japan, Taiwan and Korea is a smoke screen: the plateau we think China is stalling on right now while other countries were catching up was just a reorganization and from that plateau they are going to reach new heights again.

Banning on court coaching would just make China choosing players maybe less talented but needing less of that moral support that coaching brings; and it would hurt other countries as well anyway...


Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 891
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

To others coaching is part of the game. If done right the athlete are just chess pieces and the coaches are the chess master
I don't know of a single coach who would agree with this. Some coaches are authoritarian, but in a match, even with them, that means they give basic tactical guidelines, and the player then has to figure out how to execute it at the table, and how to adjust to the opponent's own changing tactics. Good coaches train their players to think tactically at the table so they can do this. If they don't, then they are not good coaches and their players will never reach their potential. Good coaches teach this early, even to young kids, once they start playing competitive matches. I am often amazed at how tactically astute some of our top juniors are, even as young as ten. That's part of the reason they got good so early on. 

Here's a funny example. I once coached a player who had lost the first game because he kept playing to the opponent's strong backhand rather than into his weaker forehand. (It was best of three to 21, no timeouts in those days.) So I told him to play more to the forehand. In game two, my player kept going to the forehand, and at first it worked and he built up a lead. But the opponent figured this out, and began to just wait for the shot to the forehand, which he'd smash. My player blew a big second-game lead because he kept going to the forehand. Afterwards, he walked off the table, crying out, "You told me to play the forehand!!!

Going back to the original question, it would handicap the Chinese team unfairly. A level playing field means both sides play by the same rules, not that you find ways to handicap the better player. As far as I'm concerned, as long as China allows huge numbers of their former top players and current top regional players to relocate to other countries as coaches, thereby letting other countries take advantage of their first-hand knowledge of Chinese table tennis expertise, I'm fine with trying to battle with the Chinese without artificial handicaps. History tells us that other countries will periodically rise and challenge them, as Japan might be on the verge of doing. 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 12/10/2019 at 11:22pm
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13642
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2019 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:


To answer the question, it would severely handicap cnt team.

To others coaching is part of the game. If done right the athlete are just chess pieces and the coaches are the chess master

Nonsense (IMHO).

Chess pieces?  Absurd.
Back to Top
skip3119 View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 02/24/2006
Location: somewhere
Status: Online
Points: 8205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 12:00am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

How much technical and/or tactical advantage do the top CNT players have over others in the top 50?

Would banning on-court coaching for just the CNT be enough to level the playing field considerably for everyone else?
==========================

Banning on-court coaching for just the CNT, but allow on-court coaching for players of other countries?
Weird. Doesn't pass the smell test.

Back to Top
ashishsharmaait View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 02/27/2013
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 790
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 1:05am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

How much technical and/or tactical advantage do the top CNT players have over others in the top 50?

Would banning on-court coaching for just the CNT be enough to level the playing field considerably for everyone else?

What would really level the playing field is tying their non-playing hand behind their back!
...and for FZD, XX, WCQ maybe also 1 leg.
Back to Top
SionMadren View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 12/11/2019
Location: Indianapolis
Status: Offline
Points: 11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SionMadren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 10:06am
From a spectator and promotion perspective, ping pong probably needs more coaching involvement lke in NBA or NFL where Bobby Knight is throwing a chair across the court or Patriots pile up SuperBowl rings by constantly inventing new ways to cheat.  (OK Patriots comment may be totally unrelated though true but I always wanted to say this to someone as it sounds so cool & will upset many Patriot fans)  
This is probably why ITTF also made coaching during points (or is it between points ?)  legal. IMO coaching DURING points should be legal with coaches also continuously walking the sidelines & yelling instructions to their player (and maybe verbally taunting & abusing opposing player & even fighting the other coach as in professional (fake) wrestling events).   

Om a related note gambling should be legal & promoted as long as no cheating or match fixing   What the hell the US Nationals are played in Las Vegas and which better place for bookmakers to set odds etc on matches there  


Edited by SionMadren - 12/11/2019 at 10:16am
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7061
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 11:32am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

How much technical and/or tactical advantage do the top CNT players have over others in the top 50?

Would banning on-court coaching for just the CNT be enough to level the playing field considerably for everyone else?


It's not on-court coaching. It's LGL that must be banned.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7061
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 12:39pm
Other countries can't compete with China on a consistent basis because they treat table tennis as an individual sport. Not the case for China. In articles and interviews, they always talk about "making use of team advantage", "comprehensive assessment, reasonable layout." Always working as a team, as a group, not only for team events, but also for individual events. They have this macro-perspective, this big picture in mind at all times.

For example, in the article below, LGL mentions those concepts and how XX, should put more energy on the XD instead of playing in all 3 events in Tokyo 2020, considering his age and that he's a doubles specialist.

Another example is SYS. Many were surprised when they opted for SYS over ZYL for the WTTC 2019. But it's very clear by now their objective is to "use" her to counter Ito. They've put in so much effort and time to help her climb up the ranking over the past year.

http://www.bj.xinhuanet.com/bjyw/2019-02/26/c_1124163033.htm
Quote     刘国梁:布局要发挥团队优势

    从中乒协制定的教练组考核办法中不难看出,国乒对奥运会新增项目混双十分重视。对此刘国梁表示,混双的战略地位非常重要,而备战东京奥运会必须整体考虑、合理布局,“发挥我们的团队优势。”

    根据规则,混双是东京奥运会乒乓球项目产生的首枚金牌,且每个协会只能报一对选手。“这块金牌显然不是好拿的。”刘国梁表示,国乒至少要准备两三对“能确保在东京夺金”的组合,“单打有双保险,团体是三人作战,只有混双必须做到万无一失,且是打头阵的项目,肯定最凶险。”

    而刘国梁所谓的“团队优势”,即可能需要某些队员主攻混双。“这些运动员即便不放弃单打,也势必要转移很大一部分精力备战混双,要有主、副项之分。例如许昕年龄比较大,精力、体力可能不允许身兼三项,但是他的双打能力非常强,是不是可以逐步把注意力转移到混双上?”刘国梁认为,面对头号劲敌日本队,中国队雄厚的整体实力是制胜法宝,“日本男、女队实力平均,五个项目都有机会去争,而且运动员年龄都比较小。我认为他们的主力队员完全有可能身兼三项,放手一搏,拼着哪个是哪个。£我们也要用少数几个人去跟他们争吗?还是应该结合主要队员的能力、精力合理分配,进行整体布局。”
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
hunkeelin View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/22/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 1:47pm
to larrytt and baal. 

Players do think for themselves, it's table tennis there's strategy in it, but the coach is the better thinker. It's a huge stress relief to know that you don't have to think about it and only focus on your own shot. Have your coach handle the emotion and game plan. It's a lot easier to enter the zone that way. That's why i said players are just chess piece and coaches are chess master. 

A good coach is really important down to even our levels. Me for example, honest saying I think I'm at best a 2050 level player but with a coach behind me it's instant + 100usatt. Same goes for kids. Anyone who thinks taking away the coach during the match won't affect the CNT severely have a lack of understanding of the game. 




Edited by hunkeelin - 12/11/2019 at 2:06pm
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 891
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

to larrytt and baal. 

That's because you think in an american way and lack experience. The chinese they train like robots for a reason. They perfect the basic and let the coaches and staff developer tatics against international players and execute them on court. 
You are incorrect. (And you believe you have more experience than me?) My co-coaches at MDTTC include Cheng Yinghua (former member of the Chinese National Team and former head coach for the Sichuan Province of China), Huang Tong "Jack" Sheng (former member of the Chinese National Team and former head coach of the Guangxi Province of China), and Wang Qingliang, Bowen Chen, Jeffrey Zeng Xun, and Alex Ruichao Chen, all former members of Chinese province teams. We have weekly coaches meetings. I've worked with Cheng and Jack for decades. I've worked with many, many Chinese coaches, both as co-coaches and as USATT coaching chair for six years  in two terms. I've worked extensively with other Chinese coaches and former members of the Chinese National Team such as Li Zhensi, Zhang Li, Henan Li Ai, Liguo Ai, Amy Feng, Gao Jun, and many more. 

***None*** of these Chinese coaches would agree with you. 

They, with their Chinese backgrounds, emphasize exactly what they were taught in China - to listen to the coach while also learning to think tactically for yourself. They emphasize teaching tactics because a coach can only talk to a player a few times in a match, so it is up to the coach to teach the players to think tactically for themselves. This idea that the Chinese players are taught to be robots is nonsense. They may train physically to play like robots, but they do not think like robots. Do you really think great tactical players like Ma Long and Ma Lin are just robots, mindlessly doing what a coach told them to do, and somehow adjusting to an opponent's changing tactics without learning to think tactically themselves? That would be incredibly stupid, and any coach who taught that would be unsuccessful.

You also wrote, "Chinese players def think for themselve." (sic.) But earlier you wrote, "If done right the athlete are just chess pieces and the coaches are the chess master." This is a contradiction - chess pieces do not think for themselves. Coaches and players work together in their tactical thinking - coaches often give the broad plans (often after discussing it with players, sometimes while watching opponents, often on video), and players work out the specifics in executing these plans, point by point - and often find their own plans, which, if successful, the coach sees and expands on when they talk with the player at breaks. How do you think players learn to think for themselves if coaches don't encourage this, and the players are just "chess pieces"?

Ironically, players I coach know that, between games and at timeouts, I often ask, "What serves do you like?" I want them thinking about these things, as do successful coaches, both Chinese and others. Plus it's a time-saver, as I don't have to tell them to use serves that they already want to use - I just expand on their thinking. (Let me know if you want me to cite my record in match coaching.) 

I am arguing by giving facts and reasons. You, hiding behind an alias, are arguing by assertion, i.e. without any support other than it being an unfounded opinion. There's a difference. 

As to Chinese players being handicapped if they did not have a coach in a match, that's true of nearly all players, not just the Chinese. Just about any player does better if he has a good tactical coach in his corner - but he's badly handicapped if he thinks of himself as a mindless chess piece relying on the coach to tell him what to do, when he has to make the overwhelming majority of the actual decisions at the table. 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 12/11/2019 at 2:32pm
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 891
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

to larrytt and baal. 

Players do think for themselves, it's table tennis there's strategy in it, but the coach is the better thinker. It's a huge stress relief to know that you don't have to think about it and only focus on your own shot. Have your coach handle the emotion and game plan. It's a lot easier to enter the zone that way. That's why i said players are just chess piece and coaches are chess master. 

A good coach is really important down to even our levels. Me for example, honest saying I think I'm at best a 2050 level player but with a coach behind me it's instant + 100usatt. Same goes for kids. Anyone who thinks taking away the coach during the match won't affect the CNT severely have a lack of understanding of the game. 
You edited to change your post from the rather offensive original version, but this is still wrong. Chess pieces do not think for themselves. You are using an incredibly bad analogy. Table tennis has been called chess at light speed, but that's because the player, metaphorically, has to play tactics at light speed. He doesn't have a coach telling him what to do each shot, he has to make those decisions for himself, unlike a mindless chess piece, which is simply moved around the board by the chess player, and doesn't think for itself. Rather than being mindlessly stubborn, why not try to come up with a better metaphor? 
-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
hunkeelin View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/22/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

to larrytt and baal. 

That's because you think in an american way and lack experience. The chinese they train like robots for a reason. They perfect the basic and let the coaches and staff developer tatics against international players and execute them on court. 
You are incorrect. (And you believe you have more experience than me?) My co-coaches at MDTTC include Cheng Yinghua (former member of the Chinese National Team and former head coach for the Sichuan Province of China), Huang Tong "Jack" Sheng (former member of the Chinese National Team and former head coach of the Guangxi Province of China), and Wang Qingliang, Bowen Chen, Jeffrey Zeng Xun, and Alex Ruichao Chen, all former members of Chinese province teams. We have weekly coaches meetings. I've worked with Cheng and Jack for decades. I've worked with many, many Chinese coaches, both as co-coaches and as USATT coaching chair for six years  in two terms. I've worked extensively with other Chinese coaches such as Li Zhensi, Zhang Li, Henan Li Ai, Liguo Ai, Lily Yip, Gao Jun, and many more. 

***None*** of these Chinese coaches would agree with you. 

They, with their Chinese backgrounds, emphasize exactly what they were taught in China - to listen to the coach while also learning to think tactically for yourself. They emphasize teaching tactics because a coach can only talk to a player a few times in a match, so it is up to the coach to teach the players to think tactically for themselves. This idea that the Chinese players are taught to be robots is nonsense. They may train physically to play like robots, but they do not think like robots. Do you really think great tactical players like Ma Long and Ma Lin are just robots, mindlessly doing what a coach told them to do, and somehow adjusting to an opponent's changing tactics without learning to think tactically themselves? That would be incredibly stupid, and any coach who taught that would be unsuccessful.

You also wrote, "Chinese players def think for themselve." (sic.) But earlier you wrote, "If done right the athlete are just chess pieces and the coaches are the chess master." This is a contradiction - chess pieces do not think for themselves. Coaches and players work together in their tactical thinking - coaches often give the broad plans (often after discussing it with players, sometimes while watching opponents, often on video), and players work out the specifics in executing these plans, point by point - and often find their own plans, which, if successful, the coach sees and expands on when they talk with the player at breaks. How do you think players learn to think for themselves if coaches don't encourage this, and the players are just "chess pieces"?

Ironically, players I coach know that, between games and at timeouts, I often ask, "What serves do you like?" I want them thinking about these things, as do successful coaches, both Chinese and others. Plus it's a time-saver, as I don't have to tell them to use serves that they already want to use - I just expand on their thinking. (Let me know if you want me to cite my record in match coaching.) 

I am arguing by giving facts and reasons. You, hiding behind an alias, are arguing by assertion, i.e. without any support other than it being an unfounded opinion. There's a difference. 

As to Chinese players being handicapped if they did not have a coach in a match, that's true of nearly all players, not just the Chinese. Just about any player does better if he has a good tactical coach in his corner - but he's badly handicapped if he thinks of himself as a mindless chess piece relying on the coach to tell him what to do, when he has to make the overwhelming majority of the actual decisions at the table. 
-Larry Hodges

You are wrong, they would agree with me. We are talking about table tennis at an international level not just usatt. You are a good politician, a table tennis program facilitator,  and maybe a tactical coach. 

I am not saying players shouldn't think. They need to because you don't get a coach sitting behind them at all times like league matches. However, if you think taking the coach away from CNT won't severely handicap the CNT's performance at an international level is blasphemy. 

Table tennis is best played when the player become a chess piece and coach become the chess master where players will in corporate what coach said and perfectly execute the game plan. That's why chinese train like robots. Chinese player spend more time getting down the basic and perfect every shot where euro players spend more time on tactical training. The philosophy is fundamentally different and it seems CNT's philosophy is working. 

For CNT the tatical part is handle by a team with complicate analysis, specific training drills, shot selection game plan etc... the head coach of the players design them btw. Taking the coach of the player way from a match will screw up the whole game plan and flow. ML XX and maybe other vetarans might be ok with it but other 30 CNT members will get screw. Taking the coach away from chinese player will have a more severe effect than taking the coach away from a euro/jpn player. On the flip side it also means the chinese coach have more impact to a chinese player than a euro/jpn player. It seems you down right under estimate the relationship between a player's head coach and the player. It's easily 2~3 point difference. 

Edit: Just read the whole thing: Hiding behind alias? hunkeelin is legally my real name. https://usatt.simplycompete.com/userAccount/up/122934


Edited by hunkeelin - 12/11/2019 at 2:56pm
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 891
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

to larrytt and baal. 

That's because you think in an american way and lack experience. The chinese they train like robots for a reason. They perfect the basic and let the coaches and staff developer tatics against international players and execute them on court. 
You are incorrect. (And you believe you have more experience than me?) My co-coaches at MDTTC include Cheng Yinghua (former member of the Chinese National Team and former head coach for the Sichuan Province of China), Huang Tong "Jack" Sheng (former member of the Chinese National Team and former head coach of the Guangxi Province of China), and Wang Qingliang, Bowen Chen, Jeffrey Zeng Xun, and Alex Ruichao Chen, all former members of Chinese province teams. We have weekly coaches meetings. I've worked with Cheng and Jack for decades. I've worked with many, many Chinese coaches, both as co-coaches and as USATT coaching chair for six years  in two terms. I've worked extensively with other Chinese coaches such as Li Zhensi, Zhang Li, Henan Li Ai, Liguo Ai, Lily Yip, Gao Jun, and many more. 

***None*** of these Chinese coaches would agree with you. 

They, with their Chinese backgrounds, emphasize exactly what they were taught in China - to listen to the coach while also learning to think tactically for yourself. They emphasize teaching tactics because a coach can only talk to a player a few times in a match, so it is up to the coach to teach the players to think tactically for themselves. This idea that the Chinese players are taught to be robots is nonsense. They may train physically to play like robots, but they do not think like robots. Do you really think great tactical players like Ma Long and Ma Lin are just robots, mindlessly doing what a coach told them to do, and somehow adjusting to an opponent's changing tactics without learning to think tactically themselves? That would be incredibly stupid, and any coach who taught that would be unsuccessful.

You also wrote, "Chinese players def think for themselve." (sic.) But earlier you wrote, "If done right the athlete are just chess pieces and the coaches are the chess master." This is a contradiction - chess pieces do not think for themselves. Coaches and players work together in their tactical thinking - coaches often give the broad plans (often after discussing it with players, sometimes while watching opponents, often on video), and players work out the specifics in executing these plans, point by point - and often find their own plans, which, if successful, the coach sees and expands on when they talk with the player at breaks. How do you think players learn to think for themselves if coaches don't encourage this, and the players are just "chess pieces"?

Ironically, players I coach know that, between games and at timeouts, I often ask, "What serves do you like?" I want them thinking about these things, as do successful coaches, both Chinese and others. Plus it's a time-saver, as I don't have to tell them to use serves that they already want to use - I just expand on their thinking. (Let me know if you want me to cite my record in match coaching.) 

I am arguing by giving facts and reasons. You, hiding behind an alias, are arguing by assertion, i.e. without any support other than it being an unfounded opinion. There's a difference. 

As to Chinese players being handicapped if they did not have a coach in a match, that's true of nearly all players, not just the Chinese. Just about any player does better if he has a good tactical coach in his corner - but he's badly handicapped if he thinks of himself as a mindless chess piece relying on the coach to tell him what to do, when he has to make the overwhelming majority of the actual decisions at the table. 
-Larry Hodges

You are wrong, they would agree with me. We are talking about table tennis at an international level not just usatt. You are a good politician, a table tennis program facilitator,  and maybe a tactical coach. But your depth of understanding of the game is glaring. 

I am not saying players shouldn't think. They need to because you don't get a coach sitting behind them at all times. However, if you think taking the coach away from CNT won't severely handicap the CNT's performance at an international level is blasphemy. 

Table tennis is best played when the player become a chess piece and coach become the chess master where players will in corporate what coach said and perfectly execute the game plan. That's why chinese train like robots. Chinese player spend more time getting down the basic and perfect every shot where euro players spend more time on tactical training. The philosophy is fundamentally different and it seems CNT's philosophy is working. 

For CNT the tatical part is handle by a team with complicate analysis, specific training drills, shot selection game plan etc... the head coach of the players design them btw. Taking the coach of the player way from a match will screw up the whole game plan and flow. ML and XX might be ok with it but other 30 CNT members will get screw. Taking the coach away from chinese player will have a more severe effect than taking the coach away from a euro/jpn player. 
As in all our past "discussions," you are simply making assertions that show your inexperience and lack of knowledge. When they are disproved, you stubbornly stick to them to the bitter end. 

You wrote, "You are wrong, they would agree with me." Um . . . I have actually worked on a daily basis with these top Chinese players and coaches on a regular basis, for decades. You have not. 

You wrote, "We are talking about table tennis at an international level not just usatt." You do realize that every one of the Chinese players and coaches I cited were from, you know, CHINA?!!! Most were former members of the Chinese National Team, which, in case you didn't realize, is not part of USATT. :) Cheng Yinghua, Jack Huang, Gao Jun, Amy Feng, Xu Huazhang, Li Zhenshi, Zhang Li, Henan Li Ai - they were members of the CHINESE NATIONAL TEAM, and I worked with them all regularly in various ways. I've worked with even more Chinese province team members (players and coaches). I've also coached the U.S. National Junior Team in numerous international tournaments, even in Taiwan. You have not. But you know best because you are almost as good as some of the 11-year-olds I've coached at my club, none of whom played like they were chess pieces any more than their Chinese counterparts. 

You wrote a number of insulting things, but they are just more assertions without any support. (I counted exactly 20 assertions in your posting, all given without support.) That is how you argue, as I pointed out. It's a lot easier than doing what good coaches do, which is to listen and learn from those who have a LOT more experience and a much better coaching track record than you do, which is essentially zilch. It is because of the time wasted on you that I generally don't post on this forum. 

It's unfortunate that you choose to use your intelligence to rationalize false beliefs that are set in your mind like stone, rather than to learn and grow, as others on this forum do. Some of what you write is correct, but not the parts I specifically objected to, where you are about as wrong as it is possible for a person to be wrong. Further discussion with you is pointless. But I am sure you will respond with more unfounded assertions. 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 12/11/2019 at 3:06pm
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
racquetsforsale View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/02/2010
Location: at the table
Status: Offline
Points: 1279
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Other countries can't compete with China on a consistent basis because they treat table tennis as an individual sport. Not the case for China. In articles and interviews, they always talk about "making use of team advantage", "comprehensive assessment, reasonable layout." Always working as a team, as a group, not only for team events, but also for individual events. They have this macro-perspective, this big picture in mind at all times.

For example, in the article below, LGL mentions those concepts and how XX, should put more energy on the XD instead of playing in all 3 events in Tokyo 2020, considering his age and that he's a doubles specialist.

Another example is SYS. Many were surprised when they opted for SYS over ZYL for the WTTC 2019. But it's very clear by now their objective is to "use" her to counter Ito. They've put in so much effort and time to help her climb up the ranking over the past year.

http://www.bj.xinhuanet.com/bjyw/2019-02/26/c_1124163033.htm
Quote     刘国梁:布局要发挥团队优势

    从中乒协制定的教练组考核办法中不难看出,国乒对奥运会新增项目混双十分重视。对此刘国梁表示,混双的战略地位非常重要,而备战东京奥运会必须整体考虑、合理布局,“发挥我们的团队优势。”

    根据规则,混双是东京奥运会乒乓球项目产生的首枚金牌,且每个协会只能报一对选手。“这块金牌显然不是好拿的。”刘国梁表示,国乒至少要准备两三对“能确保在东京夺金”的组合,“单打有双保险,团体是三人作战,只有混双必须做到万无一失,且是打头阵的项目,肯定最凶险。”

    而刘国梁所谓的“团队优势”,即可能需要某些队员主攻混双。“这些运动员即便不放弃单打,也势必要转移很大一部分精力备战混双,要有主、副项之分。例如许昕年龄比较大,精力、体力可能不允许身兼三项,但是他的双打能力非常强,是不是可以逐步把注意力转移到混双上?”刘国梁认为,面对头号劲敌日本队,中国队雄厚的整体实力是制胜法宝,“日本男、女队实力平均,五个项目都有机会去争,而且运动员年龄都比较小。我认为他们的主力队员完全有可能身兼三项,放手一搏,拼着哪个是哪个。�£我们也要用少数几个人去跟他们争吗?还是应该结合主要队员的能力、精力合理分配,进行整体布局。”

Thank you, zeio, for the additional insight on what else makes the CNT so strong.
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 891
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Other countries can't compete with China on a consistent basis because they treat table tennis as an individual sport. Not the case for China. In articles and interviews, they always talk about "making use of team advantage", "comprehensive assessment, reasonable layout." Always working as a team, as a group, not only for team events, but also for individual events. They have this macro-perspective, this big picture in mind at all times.

For example, in the article below, LGL mentions those concepts and how XX, should put more energy on the XD instead of playing in all 3 events in Tokyo 2020, considering his age and that he's a doubles specialist.

Another example is SYS. Many were surprised when they opted for SYS over ZYL for the WTTC 2019. But it's very clear by now their objective is to "use" her to counter Ito. They've put in so much effort and time to help her climb up the ranking over the past year.

http://www.bj.xinhuanet.com/bjyw/2019-02/26/c_1124163033.htm
Quote     刘国梁:布局要发挥团队优势

    从中乒协制定的教练组考核办法中不难看出,国乒对奥运会新增项目混双十分重视。对此刘国梁表示,混双的战略地位非常重要,而备战东京奥运会必须整体考虑、合理布局,“发挥我们的团队优势。”

    根据规则,混双是东京奥运会乒乓球项目产生的首枚金牌,且每个协会只能报一对选手。“这块金牌显然不是好拿的。”刘国梁表示,国乒至少要准备两三对“能确保在东京夺金”的组合,“单打有双保险,团体是三人作战,只有混双必须做到万无一失,且是打头阵的项目,肯定最凶险。”

    而刘国梁所谓的“团队优势”,即可能需要某些队员主攻混双。“这些运动员即便不放弃单打,也势必要转移很大一部分精力备战混双,要有主、副项之分。例如许昕年龄比较大,精力、体力可能不允许身兼三项,但是他的双打能力非常强,是不是可以逐步把注意力转移到混双上?”刘国梁认为,面对头号劲敌日本队,中国队雄厚的整体实力是制胜法宝,“日本男、女队实力平均,五个项目都有机会去争,而且运动员年龄都比较小。我认为他们的主力队员完全有可能身兼三项,放手一搏,拼着哪个是哪个。�£我们也要用少数几个人去跟他们争吗?还是应该结合主要队员的能力、精力合理分配,进行整体布局。”

Thank you, zeio, for the additional insight on what else makes the CNT so strong.
Agreed - and note how each assertion is backed by reason or facts, rather than blind assertions without support, as some argue? On a lower level, we try to do the same type of thing at my club, MDTTC, where we train and work together as a team. USATT has tried to do the same thing with their National Team, with varying levels of success. 
-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
racquetsforsale View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/02/2010
Location: at the table
Status: Offline
Points: 1279
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 3:16pm
I get what HKL originally meant. He didn't mean the players are mindless robots. He meant they're tasked with competently executing their coaches' game plan. Too bad that was misinterpreted to the extreme.

Thank you for your input, Coach Hodges. I infer from your earlier post that you indirectly agree that taking away on court coaching would weaken the performance of the Chinese players, because you said, "... it would handicap the Chinese team unfairly." If the removal of coaching had no effect on the CNT, then it wouldn't be unfairness towards them. In this way, I believe you actually agree with HKL, if his original statements were not misinterpreted.
Back to Top
racquetsforsale View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/02/2010
Location: at the table
Status: Offline
Points: 1279
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 3:29pm
I guess the underlying question for my original questions is not how the CNT come to be so strong, but how are CNT players stronger?

Are they really technically heads and shoulders above everyone else in the top 50?
Are they faster, stronger, fitter?
Do they execute with more speed and hit with more power and spin?
My gut feeling is more a positive "no" than a shaky "yes" to those questions.
If it were the case, they'd be dominating their opponents, at the level of beating them by larger margins in each game.
Seeing how Calderano, Lin, Harimoto and other newcomers gave (and some continue to give) the CNT a lot of trouble, I'm not convinced that the CNT is much superior at the fundamental, technical level.
Hence my indirect question about whether in-game coaching makes all the difference.




Edited by racquetsforsale - 12/11/2019 at 3:31pm
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 891
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I get what HKL originally meant. He didn't mean the players are mindless robots. He meant they're tasked with competently executing their coaches' game plan. Too bad that was misinterpreted to the extreme.

Thank you for your input, Coach Hodges. I infer from your earlier post that you indirectly agree that taking away on court coaching would weaken the performance of the Chinese players, because you said, "... it would handicap the Chinese team unfairly." If the removal of coaching had no effect on the CNT, then it wouldn't be unfairness towards them. In this way, I believe you actually agree with HKL, if his original statements were not misinterpreted.
As I said in one of my responses, HKL is correct in some of what he writes, but those were not the parts I responded to, such as that really bad chess metaphor. Yes, if you take away the match coach for Chinese team members, they would be handicapped, but the same is true of their opponents. It wouldn't be fair, however, if you only make match coaching illegal for the Chinese. It would be like saying the Chinese have to use inferior equipment to level the playing field. The Chinese allow their players and coaches to relocate to other countries and teach others how to play high-level table tennis like the Chinese, so it is up to the rest of us to learn from this and perhaps challenge the Chinese. I don't think handicapping them by making them play without coaches while their opponents have coaches is fair. If someone wants to make a rule that all coaching in matches is illegal, and so both the Chinese and their opponents would play without coaches, that would be fair, but it wouldn't really change the overall results - the Chinese, in their current state, would still dominate. Their coaches would still work out general strategy for their matches, as would rival coaches, and the players would still execute these strategies with point-by-point tactics. At a coaches camp, we had a entire discussion about how Ma Long changed his tactics in mid-game to overcome Fan Zhendong at the 2017 World Championships, without any coach (or chessmaster) telling him to do this. (I forget the details offhand, but I blogged about it.) 
-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member, USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National & ITTF Certified Coach
Former Chair, USATT Coaching Committee
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
racquetsforsale View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/02/2010
Location: at the table
Status: Offline
Points: 1279
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2019 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

The Chinese allow their players and coaches to relocate to other countries and teach others how to play high-level table tennis like the Chinese, so it is up to the rest of us to learn from this and perhaps challenge the Chinese.

Very good point about the dissemination of Chinese TT wisdom throughout the world. I forgot about that. That's one avenue through which other players get the opportunity to improve. I do wonder, though, how many actually leave with a chip on their shoulder and make it their life goal to train their own proteges to  defeat the Chinese.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.102 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
About MyTableTennis.NET | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2019 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.