Would this theory work in TT?

APW46 wrote: V-Griper wrote: So timing in the stroke is important because the maximum racket/paddle speed is achieved at a specific place and time. If you are a little late the racket/paddle speed has already started to slow down, if you are too early the racket paddle has not yet reached it's max speed. So my take is that if you actually have to stop and wait, with your entire body, you have done your take back too early. The reason why I qualified my statement with regard to stopping the entire body is that in reality parts of your body are moving at different rates, the motion has so called lag and is cyclic. That's what I was trying to point out in my first post in this thread. All of those videos show this action and I don't see any pauses or stops in those strokes. What I see is a slowdown for timing adjustment but no stopping.  exactly as I see it.

fatt wrote: I agree but can't we say that if the footwork speed is optimal then the pause is unnecessary?  The pause would be required only the footwork is too fast; v-griper's analogy with the red car approaching the red light is so appropriate. It seems contradictory to talk about too fast footwork but in this case I can't help thinking a pause means the correction of something that was too fast beforehand, meaning a waste of energy of some sort; approaching a red light too fast means breaking when the light does not turn green fast enough (the ball did not come back yet...) when we get there --> waste of energy to get there; waste of energy to stop the momentum and wait... If we accept the idea that everything is connected in the game then there is the right speed for the footwork with a back swing feeding the swing as the legs start the stroke again. Ideally the speed of the paddle does not even slow down between the back swing and the swing and only reaches its optimum (maximum acceleration is not always what we want) acceleration right before contact. I am firmly convinced that in any sport from beginner to highest level, at any age and fitness level, we achieve best results doing any given stroke by investing the minimum energy, allowing us to reach full potential when we go for it and add some. Bounce with the ball; dance; get into the rhythm; play the opponent, not the ball...are expressions I enjoy to illustrate that idea of using the minimum resources to unload any stroke with a precise idea in mind.

Edited by TTFrenzy - 11/07/2013 at 12:32pm

no its not a big assertion (and I replied to your question about the pause, it is answered). Just watch the videos carefully. I did and I wont spent any more time arguing about facts that are quite obvious, u seem more like u post to argue than to contribute your opinion.

Edited by TTFrenzy - 11/07/2013 at 2:24pm

v griper : obviously when I say something pauses or stops it is related to my movement not the other parts of the body of Xu xi or wlq or or...

Edited by TTFrenzy - 11/07/2013 at 2:38pm

TTFrenzy wrote: ... U have two movements (back swing and forward swing) explain to me in physics how exactly an object (hand or paddle or ball or all of them, its your choice) can travel this way <- then this way -> without stopping by external forces  ...

I am appalled at the question...a planet flying around its orbit in an elliptical way will not lose speed where the ellipse is flattest. 

OK maybe my base physics is wrong but to my understanding we are talking about motion on an elliptical path. The reason that I am saying that there is no stopping is because of what I said in the previous post about the stroke not being in a absolutely straight line forward and back. The stroke and every part of it will always travel on some type of modified oval or elliptical pathway. 

Edited by V-Griper - 11/07/2013 at 7:47pm

V-Griper wrote: Ok let's take a slow look at an actual badminton smash in action. Let's look at Lin Dan. He is from some unknown country in central Asia and just an average player.

josepher wrote: My reply: A pause (quietness) of optimal length enables the player to extract the maximum power from the stroke. That optimal time is sensed by the player and of course occurs near the end of the coiling. I say near the end because the hand/racket unit is quiet even before the coiling is fully complete.

V-Griper wrote: OK maybe my base physics is wrong but to my understanding we are talking about motion on an elliptical path. The reason that I am saying that there is no stopping is because of what I said in the previous post about the stroke not being in a absolutely straight line forward and back. The stroke and every part of it will always travel on some type of modified oval or elliptical pathway.  I am saying that no matter how eccentric the ellipse there is always a curved path that exists at the two ends. And a real stroke in the real world is anything but perfectly straight back and forth.

in roddick's serve above when the racket is pointing toward the sky at 45s, that's when the back swing starts; then the head goes down and points at the ground and that is the end of the back swing; then the head goes back up, hits the ball and that is the swing. there is no pause at all.

the video misleads to what would be a pause and the end of the back swing at 45s; but the end of the back swing is not at 45s; the end of the back swing is at 50s when the head of the racket is pointing to the ground and for sure there is no pause between 45s, when the back swing really starts, and contact with the ball , when the swing ends. anything that leads to the 45s mark is to get ready for the back swing/swing combo; then the back swing starts.

replace 45 by 1m30s (or 2m01s, when the head is pointing upward is the start of the back swing) and 50s by 1m36s (or 2m03s, the start of the swing) for another view. I do not see any pause.

do i make some sense or do i just appear as a cantankerous person who wants to be right no matter what?

BTW thanks fatt. I would have never known you could insert GIFs. So Cool.

tt4me wrote: This is hopeless.  It would be best if this thread was deleted so it doesn't spread more myths.

fatt wrote: in roddick's serve above when the racket is pointing toward the sky at 45s, that's when the back swing starts; then the head goes down and points at the ground and that is the end of the back swing; then the head goes back up, hits the ball and that is the swing. there is no pause at all. the video misleads to what would be a pause and the end of the back swing at 45s; but the end of the back swing is not at 45s; the end of the back swing is at 50s when the head of the racket is pointing to the ground and for sure there is no pause between 45s, when the back swing really starts, and contact with the ball , when the swing ends. anything that leads to the 45s mark is to get ready for the back swing/swing combo; then the back swing starts. replace 45 by 1m30s (or 2m01s, when the head is pointing upward is the start of the back swing) and 50s by 1m36s (or 2m03s, the start of the swing) for another view. I do not see any pause. do i make some sense or do i just appear as a cantankerous person who wants to be right no matter what?

jrscatman wrote: fatt wrote: in roddick's serve above when the racket is pointing toward the sky at 45s, that's when the back swing starts; then the head goes down and points at the ground and that is the end of the back swing; then the head goes back up, hits the ball and that is the swing. there is no pause at all. the video misleads to what would be a pause and the end of the back swing at 45s; but the end of the back swing is not at 45s; the end of the back swing is at 50s when the head of the racket is pointing to the ground and for sure there is no pause between 45s, when the back swing really starts, and contact with the ball , when the swing ends. anything that leads to the 45s mark is to get ready for the back swing/swing combo; then the back swing starts. replace 45 by 1m30s (or 2m01s, when the head is pointing upward is the start of the back swing) and 50s by 1m36s (or 2m03s, the start of the swing) for another view. I do not see any pause. do i make some sense or do i just appear as a cantankerous person who wants to be right no matter what? fatt, I disagree in the segment you are talking about service motion and backswing starts at 35s. In my opinion I see a pause in the racquet motion aroun 47s or 48s - you can argue there is movement but it's very small - I would say velocity would be very very low - basically all the energy is in the body - not in the racquet at this point. Then the racquet is accelerated to the point of contact.

what I meant is your pause around 47 or 48 is actually the start of the back swing, when the head of the racket is pointing to the sky; then the back swing goes down until the head is pointing to the ground; then the swing starts; I see no pause.

jrscatman wrote: fatt wrote: jrscatman wrote: fatt wrote: in roddick's serve above when the racket is pointing toward the sky at 45s, that's when the back swing starts; then the head goes down and points at the ground and that is the end of the back swing; then the head goes back up, hits the ball and that is the swing. there is no pause at all. the video misleads to what would be a pause and the end of the back swing at 45s; but the end of the back swing is not at 45s; the end of the back swing is at 50s when the head of the racket is pointing to the ground and for sure there is no pause between 45s, when the back swing really starts, and contact with the ball , when the swing ends. anything that leads to the 45s mark is to get ready for the back swing/swing combo; then the back swing starts. replace 45 by 1m30s (or 2m01s, when the head is pointing upward is the start of the back swing) and 50s by 1m36s (or 2m03s, the start of the swing) for another view. I do not see any pause. do i make some sense or do i just appear as a cantankerous person who wants to be right no matter what? fatt, I disagree in the segment you are talking about service motion and backswing starts at 35s. In my opinion I see a pause in the racquet motion aroun 47s or 48s - you can argue there is movement but it's very small - I would say velocity would be very very low - basically all the energy is in the body - not in the racquet at this point. Then the racquet is accelerated to the point of contact. what I meant is your pause around 47 or 48 is actually the start of the back swing, when the head of the racket is pointing to the sky; then the back swing goes down until the head is pointing to the ground; then the swing starts; I see no pause. So what we have here is a difference opinion as to when and where the swing starts. If you define the swing on your terms - there is no pause - if you define it on my terms - then there is a pause. I guess it's all about perspective.

there we go; the debate is now about where the back swing starts .
I see it starting at your 47-48s mark because from there we have the head of the racket going down in one direction, gaining momentum, before changing direction and coming back up and hit the ball. Everything before your 47-48s mark is the preparation of the stroke, the "getting-ready-to-unload" part of the stroke; in a tt fh it would be the part when we get in position before starting to put our weight on the right foot, time at which the back swing starts.
Your thinking way to put the start of the back swing before the 47-48s mark is equivalent in a tt fh to considering the back swing starting at the end of the footwork, before we start putting our weight on the right foot and so, ok, there is possibly a pause.
It really is a matter of feeling comfortable with our vision of the stroke; I believe the way you are thinking leads to the same efficiency and what we do now is just gently rhetorical.