WTTC Finals 2022, Chengdu, 9/30-10/9

Charlie Brown wrote: Is the USATT going to boycott the WTTTC event in Chengdu in support of an independent Taiwan, tossing UN recognition of China's One Country Policy and the recent 50th Anniversary of Ping Pong Diplomacy (was it just a farce by USATT showing support?)

Charlie Brown wrote: jfolsen wrote: Charlie Brown wrote: Is the USATT going to boycott the WTTTC event in Chengdu in support of an independent Taiwan, tossing UN recognition of China's One Country Policy and the recent 50th Anniversary of Ping Pong Diplomacy (was it just a farce by USATT showing support?) Is Canada boycotting? Did you read page 2?

zeio wrote: pongfugrasshopper wrote: She had a bad tournament (Singapore Smash) losing to Jia Nan Yuan.  It happens and I'm sure she was frustrated about it, but since then she's played much, much better.  I'm not going to form my opinion of Mima based on what some 5ch users said about her.  And of course she wants to beat China.  In order to beat China and on the highest stage, you have to make top 3 in Japan.  And as for getting in the way, if you're not good enough to beat Ishikawa [Edit: in a multi-tournament race.. not h2h] then perhaps you don't deserve to be in the Olympics.  This is actually happening now as she's not currently in the top 3.  But I give credit to  Ishikawa for fighting tooth and nail to make the team.  And you saw the same from Mima.  That's what you want to see from all of the players. It was more than just losing in the singles of a bad tournament. She was losing left and right at that point. She's played much, much better since last week(9/2022) with a fixed draw. The fact that she started playing XD again says it all. Why did she join the T. League? Things were not going well both at home and abroad as she told reporters. Was Hirano even top 3 of Japan when she was 1 game away from beating CM back at WTTC 2021? How did Ishikawa fare against CM in the next round? Hirano never beat Ishikawa before the All-Japan Championships 2017(1/2017), yet she won the World Cup(10/2016) by beating Samara, Ito, FTW, CIC, whom Ishikawa always had problem beating. Don't you think someone was getting in the way? Oh, it's about the Olympics. Ishikawa always had trouble beating YMY. Hirano lost to her as well in 2021(who cares if she had matchpoint first in G5). Hayata lost to her in 2016, 2017, 2018. Shibata beat her in 2019. Perhaps Shibata deserved Ishikawa's spot more than either 2 of the then top 3? When that top 3 couldn't even run into China, not once but twice, is there any meaning to the term top 3? 01/2022 https://www.nikkansports.com/sports/news/202201270000627.html Ito: I have graduated from mixed doubles! No Jun, no Mima!! I will focus on defeating China in singles and doubles from now on!!! 03/2022 Loses 2-4 to Nagasaki in QF at LION CUP TOP32 Loses 1-3 to Yuan Jia Nan in R16 at Singapore Smash Loses 0-3 to WMY/SYS in F at Singapore Smash 04/2022 Loses 2-4 to Kihara in Grp at Asian Games selection trial 05/2022 Signs up for XD w/ Uda at WTT FEE Fremont and WTT FEE Westchester to no avail 06/2022 First XD event w/ Uda at WTT CT Zagreb, loses 1-3 to Miwa's brother/Hayata in SF Wins WD at WTT CT Zagreb after 3-1 Winter/Shan Xiaona in F Wins WS at WTT CT Zagreb after 4-2 Hirano in F 07/2022 Second XD event w/ Uda at WTT SCT ESS, loses 2-3 to Miwa's brother/Hayata in R16 Loses 0-3 to SYS/WMY in F at WTT SCT ESS, after 3-2 CSY/LHC in SF and 3-2 JJH/YHE in QF Joins the T.LEAGUE season 2022/2023 08/2022 Loses 3-4 to Shibata in QF at NOJIMA CUP 09/2022 Wins ZENNOH CUP after 4-0 Murata in R32, 4-0 Nomura in R16, 4-1 Kato in QF, 4-3 Hayata in SF, 4-0 Ishikawa in F

Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 09/07/2022 at 10:03pm

pongfugrasshopper wrote: As you noted, she won the WTT Contender in June.  So yeah, I'd say that's much, much better than losing at the Smash and yes I agree she had a rough start to the year.  I think we also ought to give credit to Shibata for playing well beating Mima Ito and recently over Kihara.  Shibata is a tough player for Mima as we saw at the WTTC.  There's no shame in losing (9-11 I think?) in the 7th.  Still it's a result far better than her earlier loss to Nagasaki where she struggled to manufacture points.  She also played very well at the ESS Star Contender losing a very close match to WMY 9-11 in the 5th of a best of 5.  I agree her subsequent 0-3 loss to WMY at WTT Champions was disappointing, but again ... the top Chinese women are really, really good.  And of course her recent victory over HH who has been beating up all of the other Japanese women. Regarding Ishikawa getting in the way of Hirano, Hirano knew what the stakes were for Tokyo singles.  It was in Hirano's hand and she lost.  That's not Ishikawa's fault.  She did what she was trained to do, and I respect her never give up attitude both back then and now.  I mean I like Hirano.  She's got great potential, but she also has to get over some mental hurdles.  I don't fault her for losing to Shibata at the Nojima Cup who was playing exceptional. Nor do I fault her for losing to HH at Zennoh Cup, but her subsequent losses to Hashimoto and Kato were disappointing.  So it's sad that Hirano will miss top 5 for WC, but again, it was in her hands. The Olympic race is ongoing and Shibata still has a chance as do many of the top players especially since points will double in 2023.  Whether you agree with them or not, I think the JTTA has tried to make it as fair as possible.  I don't know whether or not it'll work out for the best, but I give them credit for attempting to make it fair or at least what they think is fair.

As I've stressed, anyone can be top 3 of Japan if losing to China doesn't matter.

03/2022
Kihara won WTT SCT Doha, without running into top CNT players.
06/2022
Ito won WTT CT Zagreb, without running into top CNT players.
Hirano won WTT FEE Otocec, without running into top CNT players.

What does that tell us? Any combination of the top 5, 6, 7 even 8 on the scoreboard will suffice at Paris 2024. Refer to ATTC 2021.

In case I still haven't made myself clear, losing 2-3 to China is not a privilege exclusive to Ito as Hayata and Kihara at WTT CS ESS showed, which is another point I was trying to make, besides Ito's attitude.

Ito must aim higher than that. She's the one who stated "other than winning, everything else is meaningless". Expecting anything less means we are going easy on her. Getting used to the thought of "losing to China is fine" is dangerous. Having another Ishikawa is redundant. See what I mean?

As for Ishikawa and Hirano, let's try a different analogy with Boll and Franziska. As I predicted far ahead, Boll played like *bleep* at Tokyo 2020. Franziska should've played singles instead. But if I were to frame it the way you did, then Franziska didn't deserve it if he couldn't get past Boll, while ignoring his wins over XX at Singapore Smash and ML at WTT CS ESS. See the problem?

Edited by zeio - 09/08/2022 at 2:38am

zeio wrote: pongfugrasshopper wrote: As you noted, she won the WTT Contender in June.  So yeah, I'd say that's much, much better than losing at the Smash and yes I agree she had a rough start to the year.  I think we also ought to give credit to Shibata for playing well beating Mima Ito and recently over Kihara.  Shibata is a tough player for Mima as we saw at the WTTC.  There's no shame in losing (9-11 I think?) in the 7th.  Still it's a result far better than her earlier loss to Nagasaki where she struggled to manufacture points.  She also played very well at the ESS Star Contender losing a very close match to WMY 9-11 in the 5th of a best of 5.  I agree her subsequent 0-3 loss to WMY at WTT Champions was disappointing, but again ... the top Chinese women are really, really good.  And of course her recent victory over HH who has been beating up all of the other Japanese women. Regarding Ishikawa getting in the way of Hirano, Hirano knew what the stakes were for Tokyo singles.  It was in Hirano's hand and she lost.  That's not Ishikawa's fault.  She did what she was trained to do, and I respect her never give up attitude both back then and now.  I mean I like Hirano.  She's got great potential, but she also has to get over some mental hurdles.  I don't fault her for losing to Shibata at the Nojima Cup who was playing exceptional. Nor do I fault her for losing to HH at Zennoh Cup, but her subsequent losses to Hashimoto and Kato were disappointing.  So it's sad that Hirano will miss top 5 for WC, but again, it was in her hands. The Olympic race is ongoing and Shibata still has a chance as do many of the top players especially since points will double in 2023.  Whether you agree with them or not, I think the JTTA has tried to make it as fair as possible.  I don't know whether or not it'll work out for the best, but I give them credit for attempting to make it fair or at least what they think is fair. As I've stressed, anyone can be top 3 of Japan if losing to China doesn't matter. 03/2022 Kihara won WTT SCT Doha, without running into top CNT players. 06/2022 Ito won WTT CT Zagreb, without running into top CNT players. Hirano won WTT FEE Otocec, without running into top CNT players. What does that tell us? Any combination of the top 5, 6, 7 even 8 on the scoreboard will suffice at Paris 2024. Refer to ATTC 2021. In case I still haven't made myself clear, losing 2-3 to China is not a privilege exclusive to Ito as Hayata and Kihara at WTT CS ESS showed, which is another point I was trying to make, besides Ito's attitude. Ito must aim higher than that. She's the one who stated "other than winning, everything else is meaningless". Expecting anything less means we are going easy on her. Getting used to the thought of "losing to China is fine" is dangerous. Having another Ishikawa is redundant. See what I mean? As for Ishikawa and Hirano, let's try a different analogy with Boll and Franziska. As I predicted far ahead, Boll played like *bleep* at Tokyo 2020. Franziska should've played singles instead. But if I were to frame it the way you did, then Franziska didn't deserve it if he couldn't get past Boll, while ignoring his wins over XX at Singapore Smash and ML at WTT CS ESS. See the problem?

Baal wrote: "You guys know, there is something super special about Chinese people/China. They don't get affected by Covid to be honest, so there is no need for any more lockdown." I would be very skeptical about the statistics coming from China regarding the numbers of cases and deaths etc.   I also find the lockdown policies the Chinese government is pursuing to be beyond bizarre (and I suspect they don't have anything to do with disease prevention, but that's another issue above my paygrade).   Given that, I don't know if Chinese people are more resistant or not.  BUT, with that said, it is not impossible that there have been other coronoaviruses that spread into humans in the past mainly in China but that didn't cause people to die and so nobody every studied them, but that still conferred some cross-immunity.  Remember that SARS-CoV-1 also affected humans first in China.   Of course, I don't know if an earlier unstudied coronavirus circulated in China or not, but there have been some papers in the literature that speculate about that kind of thing. None of this has anything to do with TT, except that I still wonder if the tournament will actually take place.

Charlie Brown wrote: However you want to read into this one...(there will be NO selection process) The Canadian Team headed to Chengdu... https://ttcanada.ca/self-funded-team-to-2022-chendu-wtttc/

Snakefish wrote: Charlie Brown wrote: However you want to read into this one...(there will be NO selection process) The Canadian Team headed to Chengdu... https://ttcanada.ca/self-funded-team-to-2022-chendu-wtttc/ So TTCan didn't want to send their official teams, but instead offered whoever wanted to represent  Canada could "self-fund" themselves ?  It could be expanded more, but that's what it basically sounds like

Edited by Charlie Brown - 09/09/2022 at 11:13am

Charlie Brown wrote: Snakefish wrote: Charlie Brown wrote: However you want to read into this one...(there will be NO selection process) The Canadian Team headed to Chengdu... https://ttcanada.ca/self-funded-team-to-2022-chendu-wtttc/ So TTCan didn't want to send their official teams, but instead offered whoever wanted to represent  Canada could "self-fund" themselves ?  It could be expanded more, but that's what it basically sounds like History is repeating itself for ttcanada ;) What's hilarious to me:"self-funded = Representation"  thatsaid i am well aware of the issues but it's doesn't take away from that very thought.

zeio wrote: Compared to the Tokyo 2020 cycle, this Paris 2024 cycle highlights even more just how weak and fortunate Ishikawa's era was. Some may find my constant bashing annoying, but the Olympic results justified my assessment of Ishikawa after Rio 2016. Shouldn't have played Tokyo 2020. A third wheel. Any team composition of Ito/Hirano/Hayata/Nagasaki/Kihara would have guaranteed the same results in singles and team at a minimum.

Going to be several high-profile absences from this tournament. 

pongfugrasshopper wrote: In the absence of a win (which none of them have), taking top CNT players close in the 5th of a best of 5 does represent potential (so Ito and Hayata are closer with 9 and 8 points respectively).  If you go back to the video of Mima Ito playing WMY at the ESS Star Contender, WMY looked pretty nervous to me.  That nervousness is going to be amplified much higher at the Olympics and anything can happen at that point.  If she has the skills and experience to take WMY to 9-11 in the 5th, then that takes away from the argument that she should not play.  The best thing to do is let's just watch what transpires between now and Paris 2024.  Let them go through trial by fire in the selection tournaments and vs. the top CNT. The great thing about what happened in Athens is that it just goes to show you that you could lose a number of times to an opponent, but it only takes that one time where you put it all together and win in that moment.  WH dominated RSM throughout their careers, but people will remember that incredible Athens 2004 Olympics where RSM took gold. The top 4 CNT players really haven't played a lot internationally this year so there's really not enough visibility yet.  We should see more at Teams and there hopefully will be more high level events next year.  I think that will give us better visibility into the potential of the top Japanese players.  But as of right now, the argument that Ito should not play falls flat imho. [Edit] I'd also like to add that you might even be right about Ishikawa at the Tokyo Olympics.  However, the situation has changed.  Ishikawa had a built in advantage with the race being based on world rankings, and she was already very highly ranked from the beginning.  Who knows what would have happened if they had used multiple selection tournaments plus points for beating the top 3 CNT.  There's the saying that the cream rises to the top.  And after all of these trials, we'll see who rises to the top.  Mima Ito might end up not even being on the Paris Olympic team for Japan. Who really knows?

WMY was virtually playing on one leg at WTT SCT ESS. Her leg got much better(in her own words) a week later at WTT CS ESS.

Ito had to beat WMY there but failed. Just like how Hayata, at her best, had to beat Ito, far from her best, at Zennoh Cup but failed. Same with Zhang Yining's comment on Ishikawa in WT final of WTTC 2016, "if Ishikawa couldn't beat LXX today[whom was in the poorest of form], then she will never beat her". Again, I'll refer you to what LGL said, which Ito also touched on.

Before drawing parallels between RSM and Ito, one should note that RSM never lost in straight games between 2003 and 2006. The 4 matches from late-2003 to late-2005 were actually close. Ito had a similar period against WMY between 2017 and 2019, and against SYS between 2018 and 2019. Yes, it ended in 2019.

I'm not suggesting Ito should not play. I'm responding to your suggestion that Hirano does not deserve to play if she couldn't beat Ishikawa, who keeps getting in the way. At this rate, Ito will be reduced to Ishikawa if she doesn't win. Coming close against a half-crippled opponent doesn't cut it. when multiple teammates show the potential with the same feat, it then comes down to your value, but Ito's value as the go-to player for singles, doubles and mixed doubles is also being chipped away right now. Once again, Ito is already getting in the way of Hayata by dragging her down in doubles. That's the dilemma Ito faces.

Dima, Timo and Franzizka have withdrawn from the Wttc .

Message from Tischtennis Deutschland.

pongfugrasshopper wrote: You say had to beat so and so but failed as if that's the end of it.  You lose a match, work out your issues, and hope for a rematch.  I also don't find what Mima said to be anything profound.  Yes, it's very difficult to win against the Chinese.  And yes she has to give it 100%.  That's true of every player that plays against the top Chinese.  LGL has the good fortune of having the best players in the world that can beat you at not their best level.  Unfortunately, for every other country they do need to be at there best.  That's nothing new. I think you misunderstood me.  I actually was not referring specifically to Hirano. I said: "And as for getting in the way, if you're not good enough to beat Ishikawa [Edit: in a multi-tournament race.. not h2h] then perhaps you don't deserve to be in the Olympics." I was referring to the current race (multi-tournament race).  Ishikawa is fighting to make one of those 3 spots.  And if you (not necessarily Hirano) can't leapfrog her into one of those 3 spots, then that's on you as the rules are pretty clear and fair (imho).  Hirano actually did make the Tokyo Olympics just not singles. I do agree with you though about doubles.  There's no Mizutani equivalent for XD, and it just hasn't worked out with Hayata.

So what the players said doesn't amount to anything?

Here is the thing. There are "checkpoints" they have to clear. Winning against China is not just about "losing a number of times...but it only takes that one time". If that were true, Ishikawa should've done it already. A win doesn't happen out of the blue. Rather, there is a buildup, often a series of close matches. Look at Mizutani. His win over XX in the MT final at Rio 2016 may look like a huge upset, but the 2 prior encounters in early 2016 were actually close. Same for the win at Tokyo 2020, Mizutani/Ito had beaten all other XD pairs from China and were always close against XX/LSW.

That "buildup" is also applicable to other sports, say, sprinting. How do you expect a sprinter to reach the Olympic final when he has never run sub-10 in his life, let alone do it consistently in competitions? That's the story of Su Bingtian. How did he reach the Olympic final? By clearing a series of checkpoints. Check it out if you care enough.

https://youtu.be/52jgttTNGuM?t=593

The minimum goal that I set for myself is to run sub-10. If I still can't make the final, I have no regrets, because this is about what I can do. My semifinal is my final.

On Hirano now. You didn't mention anyone specifically, but it was a blanket statement. Does it not apply to Hirano? Of the top players, who have run into Ishikawa in the race so far?

Lion Cup
Hayata(QF 4-3)
Hirano(5-8th place 3-0 -> 3-4)
Ito(5-8th place 1-0 -> Inj)
Asian Games selection trial
Sato(Grp 4-2)
Hirano(Grp 4-0)
Nojima Cup
Ito(F 4-2)
Zennoh Cup
Nagasaki (SF 0-4)
Ito(F 4-0)

Ishikawa is in 4th place overall. Nagasaki, despite being in 3rd place overall, lost to Ishikawa at Zennoh Cup. Kihara, despite not having played Ishikawa, is now behind in 5th place overall. Hirano, despite 1W1L against Ishikawa, is in 6th place overall. Am I right to assume Nagasaki, Kihara and Hirano "don't deserve to be in the Olympics"? Yes, the race is ongoing, but "should NOT play" can be applied anytime without any problem because it's predicting the future by drawing from past experience that matters here.