Zennihon Takkyu 2023/All-Japan TTC 2023, 1/23-29

zeio wrote: NextLevel wrote: Doesn't change any part of the argument - you can only beat the people in front of you. So how come many refused to consider ZJK the then GOAT for that reason even after World Cup 2014? How many times have ML and ZJK met in the 3 majors and the results? 2 and 1W1L. Thank about it. http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=79816&PID=989928&title=is-waldner-the-greatest-table-tennis-player-ever#989928 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=79285&PID=982629&title=ma-long-the-goat#982629

Harimoto played extremely weird during the final. His aggressive chiquita receive was nowhere to be seen, just doing FH short and long pushes for the most part which are way below his BH receive level (as compared to say his match against Wang Chuqin and Lin Gaoyuan where he was attacking every single serve). He was also not varying his serve much, choosing just to serve to the FH short which allowed Togami to do whatever he wanted. 

Edited by blahness - 01/29/2023 at 7:57pm

Hina Hayata - very well deserved victory indeed, so much improvement over the last 2 years or so! 

NextLevel wrote: Do you quote or posts here and use them to reflect perception of Hayata and Ito for fans in the West?  Just curious.

I don't post on Chinese forums now since the majority of people have moved on to social media and video platform, which are difficult to follow and it's not serious discussion but about who's No. 1, who's trying to sabotage who, day in day out (see where I'm coming from?). Hupu is pretty much dead now. Tieba is on its way. The most active Douban groups are invite-only. But before that, I did quote posts here.

Check out my posts on hkttf.com back in 2014 where I quoted and translated Schlager's comments on about.com and Henzell's comments on Mytt. I remember rubbing some members the wrong way. The forum owner, whose son competed internationally and played Harimoto, even started a separate thread to preserve the quotes.

https://hkttf.com/viewthread.php?tid=69014&extra=&page=2
https://hkttf.com/viewthread.php?tid=69121

blahness wrote: Hina Hayata - very well deserved victory indeed, so much improvement over the last 2 years or so!  I think her game is much better than Ishikawa, the power and spin levels are way beyond what Ishikawa could ever produce imo... Hayata also takes very good advantage of the lefty angles by using sidespin wisely (kinda like how Ding Ning used to play) The CNT women are dominating but they have a weakness in terms of top level lefty players since Ding Ning left the team... Now the top 5-6 players are pretty much all righty players, they might be not accustomed to high level lefty women players (imo the best CNT lefty is Qian Tianyi? but it seems she's much weaker than Hayata)

Why did Miyuu Kihara get a yellow card here?  Seems pretty ridiculous and disrupted her flow as she was doing pretty well:

tom wrote: "I have a feeling that Harimoto couldn't care less about this competition and was just using it to hone his weaker skills" From the points I saw, HT's backhand was no where as sharp as Togami's.  Are you saying HT is deliberately dumbing down his BH in order to improve another shot?

Edited by blahness - 01/30/2023 at 5:17pm

Tempest/Comet wrote: “Im not a prodigy. Truthfully, whether it’s in technical, mental, physical and recovery, I’m the type that without striving with great effort, I won’t succeed. It is because, from the beginning, of the usual support, including my parents, Coach Daisuki and everyone of Team Hina that I can stand here. I feel very good to be able to repay their kindness this way. “

Harimoto was only one step away from achieving the first triple crown for men in 40 years...

Unlike Hirano and Ito (as well as Ishikawa, Kihara, Harimoto and many more table tennis families in Japan), Hayata's family has no table tennis history. She started playing table tennis because of her sister. IIRC, her mom had to drive her to the club a long distance for every training session.

I think Nagasaki's family has no table tennis history as well.

Edited by zeio - 01/31/2023 at 12:30pm

blahness wrote: pongfugrasshopper wrote: blahness wrote: tom wrote: "I have a feeling that Harimoto couldn't care less about this competition and was just using it to hone his weaker skills" From the points I saw, HT's backhand was no where as sharp as Togami's.  Are you saying HT is deliberately dumbing down his BH in order to improve another shot?   It seems like it... compare HT against Wang Chuqin/Lin Gaoyuan and against Togami. It seems like he was working on something... He gave Togami all the time in the world to counterloop... HT doesn't do late timing BH spinny loop in general, that's more of a Timo Boll or Lin Yun Ju shot. HT was also pretty much blocking all match long as if he's lazy to attack lol... My guess is that he's working on his passive game and push control...but you can't win with such slow shotmaking at the highest level unless you have insane spin (which he doesn't have). I just watched his semifinal and it's the same terrible playstyle, he was just lucky to not have met an opponent high quality enough to punish him for his suboptimal playstyle. They are former teammates so Togami knows Harimoto very well.  He put Harimoto's BH under time pressure either by driving it hard or by placing the ball such that Harimoto has to move to the ball.  Thus, Harimoto was often forced into passive blocking on the BH.  There's no way you use the prestigious All Japan as your training ground for your passive control game.  You can do that in team practices or League matches, but the All Japan is not the time or place for it.  I credit Togami for his controlled aggression in his matches with both Shinozuka and Harimoto. I suspect that is indeed what Harimoto is doing, maybe he only wants the big tournaments and beat the CNT players. For eg against Lin Gaoyuan or Wang Chuqin he varied his serve so much more, the BH opening loops are taken a lot earlier and with a lot more sting and varied placement, and he doesn't miss chances to aggressively BH punch counter or FH counterloop during rallies, none of the relaxed blocking nonsense he showed here.  Togami is a good player but not yet at the quality of Harimoto's A game imo.

In terms of prestige, All-Japan TTC is akin to China National Games. All top Japanese players never miss it. They are not merely representing themselves. They're also representing their respective prefectures and affiliations.

https://jtta.or.jp/news/11507
Yokoi is representing Osaka and Shitennoji High School

Hayata is representing Fukuoka and Nippon Life


The importance of All-Japan 2023 and 2024 is unparalleled. They play a big role in the selection race. And again, Harimoto was only one step away from achieving the first triple crown for men in 40 years. The last few encounters against Togami were unfavorable for Harimoto as well. Togami's Chinese nickname is not unfounded.

Harimoto vs Togami
Zennihon Takkyu 2020 SF 4-3
Nojima Cup QF 4-3
Zennoh Cup Fukuoka F 1-4
Zennihon Takkyu 2023 F 2-4

Edited by zeio - 02/02/2023 at 8:21am

tom wrote: "I have a feeling that Harimoto couldn't care less about this competition and was just using it to hone his weaker skills" From the points I saw, HT's backhand was no where as sharp as Togami's.  Are you saying HT is deliberately dumbing down his BH in order to improve another shot?

Guys, there is a reason no one has done what Harimoto was trying to do in 40 years amongst men.  He played by far the most matches in the tournament.  He lost to a deserving opponent, but I find it hard to understand why it is unacceptable to point out that he also played the toughest schedule of the event.  He just wasn't so much better than everyone else that he couldn't lose.

So is one better than the other? Haters or fanboys how makes up excuses?  We have to be objective about the merits(or the lack of it) of the two approaches.