Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  Help Desk Help Desk  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Improving rating but never win competitions?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

Improving rating but never win competitions?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Simon_plays View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 05/02/2015
Location: Vietnam
Status: Offline
Points: 869
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Improving rating but never win competitions?
    Posted: 04/03/2021 at 3:39am
I've been wondering about this for a while. Since I've started learning the sport about 7 years ago my rating has made decent jumps year on year, comparable with the local juniors who have been playing for the same amount of time (apart from the very top juniors who at some point make much bigger leaps). 

However, as I've progressed up the ratings categories I've come to the realisation that I'm just not the type of player who does well in rated events at tournaments. Even when I've been the top seed I seldom pave better than in the middle of the pack. Of course there are lots of things at play here (form on the day, other players whose recent improvement is not yet reflected by rating) but I wonder if there are, broadly speaking, two types of improving players: 

-those who improve and win ratings events and
-those who improve but hardly ever do well in ratings events

I wonder if my rate of improvement is just too slow? Also, it seems like whenever I think I might have a good chance at winning my rating will have climbed just enough that I'm now with the next bunch against whom my chances are very low again.

Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
passifid View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/22/2015
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 314
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 4:12am
No, I am similar but started working it differently recently.

Your strokes are your tools, but you need to use them correctly. I found in the last season I played when we were promoted I was massively over-gunned when moving up to the top local division, before this I used to try to dominate the game with an overly good forehand with every shot possible as it was my hail Mary and it used to win when it landed.

But now i've realised actually my opponants shots are MORE important than mine. It's about using those tools to keep your opponent off their good shots and working yours into the game. 

TL:DR
When practicing or playing not seriously most people work on playing their best, when you play seriously its more about finding weaknesses in the opponent and exploiting them to grind the victory.
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 6:44am
You need to do sandbagging to win these I think. Just intentionally lose lots of matches so that you can qualify for a lower rating group, then smash everyone during the competition.
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Tenergy 05
Back to Top
Basquests View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 08/29/2016
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 399
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 6:51am
Winning a tournament is about consistently playing well, and making your game relatively impervious to upsets. This is done by not playing your best [which would involve a lot of risks and energy consumption], but consistently playing at a good standard, which should be far stronger than opponents if you are the top seed in your group. Save the energy for the 2nd seed in the group, or if the 3rd seed is underrated or whatever.
 
Improving your rating can be done by being consistently good [as above], or by flipping a lot of matches and having your rating jump up and down with your form.

Things that make it a lot harder for you to be upset by others, involve having good quality serves and receives, as well as not being overly reliant on hitting through opponents. By winning lots of free points, even on an off day, your serve/receive means you are winning many free points, or starting the rally off with a huge advantage.

Any good player has good attacking shots, but in a tournament your first few matches you may not be warmed up completely, and later in the day you will start to become tired. By serving and receiving well, and keeping players who are slightly weaker to 3-0 or 3-1 at best, you can conserve a lot of energy and also not need to necessarily attack well. Attacking uses a lot of energy and mental fatigue, especially when matches  routinely go to 4 or 5 sets. Luckily as well, serve and receive is really crap for most players, compared to the rest of their skills. I.e. Typically many young men have level 10 looping and rallying BH to BH, but level 3-5 receiving and serving. So work on that. Practice actually generating a lot of spin, and getting serves where they should, it takes like 3-5 sessions of 15-20 minutes, and then your serving is like 30-50 % better.

I see too many players play amazing loop to loop rallies for 45 minutes in a 5 set thriller against juniors / others, when that's a really hard way to win - play a solid serve and receive game and make sure the points start heavily in your favor. Of course, against tough juniors you'll need to put out all the stops, but even mediocre juniors are generally tough to engage in loop to loop / rallies. I'd also rather be playing these points out at 9-6 up, rather than 8-8 or something...get the low hanging advantages.


When you start playing very good players, up the frequency with which you attack - my early tournament group stage matches are unrecognizable from the Qf/SF/Finals, because not only is my feeling better [so attacking %'s are better] but I've saved the energy and have an opponent that will draw everything out of me, and finally it's a really important match. So start pivoting lots, go for a lot of 3rd balls and try to counter and abuse any loose balls. Whereas against weaker players, going for high risk shots is not a good strategy.

Managing tournaments is a skill, and if your objective is to win, you need to prepare a good strategy and execute it.




Edited by Basquests - 04/03/2021 at 6:58am
Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Location: Maryland, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1236
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 8:31am
but I wonder if there are, broadly speaking, two types of improving players

Hi,

Distinctions among players is an interesting topic.  The one outstanding distinction I've found is a category I call "winners".  A winner is a player that has the capability to, very consistently, exhibit and put into action their current level skill match after match, through a great range of player types.  It is a rare exception that these players ever get "upset" by losing to significantly lower rated players, including the lower rated players that are improving rapidly.  Winners win.  Often there are struggles but they win.  They win the matches they are, based on skill levels, capable of winning.

The result of this is that (in the U.S.) their ratings for a tournament either stay approximately the same, or they move upward.  They do not have major swings - up and down - in their ratings.

There are two sub-classes among the "winners".  In one sub-class, their rating consistently moves up and tends not to have a long, stagnant period at a rating level.  These are the impressive developing players.  For a given context, these players have exceptionally high ratings.

The other sub-class are those that do not fundamentally improve.  They remain at their level for long periods, do not gain nor lose their rating level, but win the matches they can win.  In the U.S., I know 1100 rated players that are very strong "winners"; the lower level players just do not beat them, and these winners seldom win much above their rating level.

Thanks.
At the U.S. Nationals: Pass muster or pass the mustard.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14161
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 10:55am
It seems to me that the higher the rating the more accurate it becomes.  At relatively lower levels it is harder to say a win by someone even 200 points lower is very surprising (say, 1400 vs. 1600), but 2400 vs. 2600?  Those are two completely different categories of player.  

Of course kids sometimes improve so fast that ratings can't keep up.

And others mentioned the weird but very real sandbagging phenomenon.

As already mentioned, some people may be weak against a particular type of player they are likely to face at least once in the several matches that one plays in a tournament.  If that's what's happening,  it could well be fixable.  (I for one struggle against SP penholders, there are a couple of guys like that here who based on ratings I should be close to, and in many years I've never once beaten either one of them, not even in practice, going back a very long time. Usually i lose badly. I've beaten guys whove beaten them though).  And its not just those two.  Its a pattern for me everywhere.

One thing I used to notice a lot is people tend to spend a lot of time practicing stuff they are best at, and not so much working on weaknesses.  Of course too, it might not always be easy to find someone in your circle of pkayingbpartners who has that kryptonite for your game.  In my case, these two guys who eat me alive never actually practice.  They come, play a bunch of matches, have fun, go home.  I don't actually PRACTICE against them.  I play matches against them, and maybe try different things but to no avail.  


Edited by Baal - 04/03/2021 at 11:02am
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 7:21pm
@Basquests just wanted to say I love reading your very detailed posts, always get some good tips out of them!
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Tenergy 05
Back to Top
ghostzen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 08/15/2010
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 805
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 7:34am
If you are rising up the rankings/ratings but aren't winning those ...say regional/national even't maybe your preparation for the event is lacking in an area.

Out of experience playing in quite a few events these are the things that I've found helpful.

Be honest with yourself...can you actually win an event... ?

1. Prepare before the event even happens. Practice and train with intent. 
2. Mental attitude - Before the event. It's important to you run through it and how you would like the day/weekend/week's event to play out. 
3.Know your opponents. Go have a look at them hitting or playing if you can.
4.Mental focus to switch on and off. The events can be long so it's hyper important to be able to switch on and off when going into and out of a match situation. The longer the event the more you will need this ability and focus. 
5.No slip ups - Get on the table WIN get off. No showboating, Game face on. 
6. You must have your A game. Win with the least effort and get off the table. It also helps that people know you are a threat and could win the event. 
7. If you have a match time - go loosen up and hit the training table before if you can. Seen sooooo many good players get caught cold. 
8. When it comes to crunch time in the event... everyone has one...react and work the problem..This is what your pre-training was for.
9. Treat every match as the one before even the final if you can. Nerves are good. too many nerves are terrible and will switch off or freeze you. 
10. Treat every opponent with respect.. and the same. It helped me take some of the BS out of opponents and stay strong. They can then do their thing and it can't bother you,
11. If you win or lose in the final - Show respect- It will help with your mental attitude and keep you grounded.

12. It doesn't matter..after the event.... learn from it. One of my old coaches used to say it's extra data you need to improve. 

Having won a few events these have helped me get through a tricky few times. Hope they help you.

Cheers






Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14161
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 8:08am
Everybody has made good points..  

But there is also the question of simple probability.  Ok, maybe over-simplistic.  But follow me:

Let's imagine a rating event of 64 players, all between 1600 and 1800.  In a single elimination tournament you would need to win five matches in a row.  Let's  say you are the best player and your probability of winning any one of those matches is 0.75, that is, you are pretty heavily favored,  should win 3 times every 4 times you play against anyone else entered.    Even then, your probability of winning five in a row is only 0.237.  That is, on average you would have to enter four tournaments like that to win one.  In the real world there are sandbaggers and are you really going to beat EVERYBODY who entered 3 out of 4 times?  Lets say fewer players (32) and your victory probability against all the entrants is 0.67.   Probability of winning four straight is 0.20.

With other tournament formats, for example where you have to come out of a group to win, the same basic idea would still apply.

To win the tournament,  either you must be vastly superior to everyone else, or pretty much everything has to go right for you that day.  That's assuming you never choke, play every match at the same level, and don't have any glaring weakness against, say, lefties or LP players or whatever. 

So don't be too hard on yourself.  (And think about what it took for someone like Ma Long to dominate like he did for several years!!!)


Edited by Baal - 04/04/2021 at 8:16am
Back to Top
ghostzen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 08/15/2010
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 805
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 8:32am
That's totally a cracking point Baal. Realistically there's only going to be maybe 4 players who will be in the mix. Maybe you will get a rogue outcome which will bring another small group of players into the mix as well. Happens at every level including the world's. 
Back to Top
BRS View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/08/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1248
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 9:21am
If you are among the highest rated/ranked players and consistently finish only middle of the pack then there are always a number of players who are under-rated.  This may be due to sandbagging, or honestly to people who train often and compete seldom, so they improve a lot between events.

If you often make it to a final or a semi and lose there then two possibilities come to mind.

Fitness.  Finals are by definition the last match.  If you are too tired to play your best after a day of hard matches, and your opponent isn't, you have a big disadvantage.

Pressure.  Some people are more bothered about winning than others.  This puts them at a disadvantage because they tighten up and/or lose confidence in their shots and play below their normal level at exactly the wrong time. 
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Assistant Admin
Assistant Admin
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: USA
Status: Online
Points: 682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 12:48pm
I like very much baal's numbers approach, it makes us see ourselves less and the goal more, it's a mindset that gives value to both defeats and victories and encourages a focused attitude: "it's not about me, it's about the job."
I was closed to 1900 at some point (At over 1700, I lost a 1500 at 9am in Las Vegas and ended the tournament at 1888, he had 2 old mark V that looked anti on 50% of the surface of the rubbers and I wrongly chose to not complain.)  and I ever won one event only, it was U1800 and unrated; the only consolation was that it had a high turnout at a Chinese Community Center. I lost many rated finals and my consolation was that I had maximized the number of matches I could play in the event, a perfect loser's reconcile isn't it?
I would join in with BRS and recommend that you play your final like a RR match that will not block you from going further, for example when you know you already got out of the RR no matter the result of your last match in there, the mindset is so clearer. The trick has truth in it, no matter what, you won't go further after the final match so don't sweat it, loosen up and let it go! The true battle is to get there, then it's a celebration, a party. Being tense in a party is a no-no, it annoys other partyers, we don't do that. 

Back to Top
allencorn View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 03/16/2020
Location: Colorado
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allencorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2021 at 12:27am
To add to Baal's probability analysis, your rating (and everyone else's) is a refection of average playing level. On any given day or match, you might be above or below that level. Some players have small variation, other have large variation. Some 1800 players can lose to 1500 players and sometimes steal matches from a 1950 player. Others rarely beat anyone 50 points above them or lose to anyone 50 points below them. Add that to Baal's probability analysis, and winning a large event is really tough.

I think Ratings Central includes a +/- around each person's rating based on their performances. Looking at that spread can give an indication of the stability of someone's rating.
Back to Top
yogi_bear View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 11/25/2004
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 6904
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2021 at 2:16am
you just need to accept that there are other people who are just plainly better than you. At least if you improve it is a good way of showing you are having good results. the ones who keep winning deserve them because they really work hard for it or they have been in the sport for so long. 

Edited by yogi_bear - 04/05/2021 at 2:17am
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS

ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach
Back to Top
Lightspin View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/11/2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 304
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2021 at 4:57am
There are slightly different strategies for raising one's rating and winning an event.  Sure if you win your event, your rating will rise.  However, if you just want to gamble and try to make your rating increase then its better to enter a higher rated event and hope for an upset.  The silly readjustment process really pays off if you get an upset or two. 

If your goal is to win some rating event, you need to get in shape.  You probably need to win 3-4 matches in the RR and then 4-5 events after that in single elimination.  Anyone will be tired after playing that many matches, so I would suggest only playing one event.  If you are really serious you will study all the local players around whatever rating event you want to play.  Knowing how they play and what works against them will really pay dividends in matches.  The local people I know trying to win the u-2200 up to the u-2500 know all the contenders like the back of their hands.  If you lose, stick around and watch the competition in your event.  Take notes.  Trying to figure out how to beat a fixed set of people around your skill level is an entirely different process than trying to improve your strokes, serve and game to improve your overall level. 
Back to Top
vanjr View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 08/19/2004
Location: Corpus Christi
Status: Offline
Points: 1202
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2021 at 11:33am
One thing to remember-improvement is not always reflected in ratings. Rating represents wins and losses and nothing else. If I lose a match 2-3 at deuce in the 5th or lose 0-3 and score 1-3 points my rating adjusts the same. For me the enjoyment is playing better, working to get better and improving. Sure I want to win-but losing a well played match can be more satisfying (to me I guess) than winning but playing poorly. 
Back to Top
pgpg View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1260
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2021 at 12:45pm
Lots of good responses already - I would add/reinforce that approach to tournaments changes depending on whether you want to win an event, grow/protect your rating, or just have fun.

I found that if I want to win an event, I have to:
  • Enter events I actually have chance of winning
  • Make sure I plan my day to avoid potential overlaps with 'my' event and to make sure I still have some strength left if I were to make it deep into the SE bracket. 
  • Be prepared to deal with various styles (lots of variety at rating levels I tend to be at)
  • Grow thicker skin and try not be rattled by a point or even a game loss, nets and edges, opponent choing, spectators rooting against you etc.
  • Watch and study your opponents. 
  • Pay attention to tactics 
Come to think of it, plenty of these overlap with items you need to grow your rating - it's just in order to win an event, you probably have to battle through lots of players close to your level and string together a series of wins.


Edited by pgpg - 04/05/2021 at 1:55pm
USATT: ~1840
Nittaku Shake Defense - Fastarc G1 - Dtecs OX
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14161
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2021 at 2:40pm
I have literally not won a single tournament since I was a junior.  I won several then (junior events, I pretty much dominated my area then).

After that I didn't play for several years (university, with all of its distractions, graduate school, then job in a place where TT was not much of a thing).  When I moved to Houston and started to play again, I improved steadily and was happy with a lot of results.  But I never won another tournament.  

For one thing, there have always been a lot of really good players in the city where I live and not too far away.  So even ratings events are tough.  I remember the very first day I showed up at the Houston club, and the first two guys I saw playing were 2500+.  I remember thinking holy crap! I just sat and watched for an hour.  I think at that moment it was obvious to me that this was going to all be for fun because no matter how good I got, all the glory was going to remain in the past.  So I'm not the guy to ask how to win a tournament,  but I can say that TT has been awesome anyway.


Edited by Baal - 04/05/2021 at 2:43pm
Back to Top
smackman View Drop Down
Assistant Moderator
Assistant Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 07/20/2009
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 3242
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2021 at 6:55pm
  • To Simon, your ratings only come from tournaments (I don't know of another way?)
so when you say you don't do well in tournaments , I'm thinking you can't be going up in ratings if you are playing in your own rated grades and not playing well
It may be you have reached your level

Having said that learning how to prepare for tournaments will help you, 
  1. If your games start at 9 am, get used to that by playing some games at that time in the weeks previous
  2. Know which ball is being used and only practice with that
  3. Be prepared, spare bat, drinks, snacks, towel, spare shirt, cash, device etc
  4. Learn about the opposition, ask mates , watch them play etc
  5. Always play grades above as you can have a go and no harm done
  6. Don't overdue the amount of grades and games you enter
  7. Will power, being positive and fight hard

Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website
Back to Top
smackman View Drop Down
Assistant Moderator
Assistant Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 07/20/2009
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 3242
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2021 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have literally not won a single tournament since I was a junior.  I won several then (junior events, I pretty much dominated my area then).

After that I didn't play for several years (university, with all of its distractions, graduate school, then job in a place where TT was not much of a thing).  When I moved to Houston and started to play again, I improved steadily and was happy with a lot of results.  But I never won another tournament.  

For one thing, there have always been a lot of really good players in the city where I live and not too far away.  So even ratings events are tough.  I remember the very first day I showed up at the Houston club, and the first two guys I saw playing were 2500+.  I remember thinking holy crap! I just sat and watched for an hour.  I think at that moment it was obvious to me that this was going to all be for fun because no matter how good I got, all the glory was going to remain in the past.  So I'm not the guy to ask how to win a tournament,  but I can say that TT has been awesome anyway.
 I'm the opposite, played for 25 years before trying a over 40 competition, and have since won 4 golds at National competitions
Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website
Back to Top
Simon_plays View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 05/02/2015
Location: Vietnam
Status: Offline
Points: 869
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2021 at 5:17am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

  • To Simon, your ratings only come from tournaments (I don't know of another way?)
so when you say you don't do well in tournaments , I'm thinking you can't be going up in ratings if you are playing in your own rated grades and not playing well
It may be you have reached your level

Having said that learning how to prepare for tournaments will help you, 
  1. If your games start at 9 am, get used to that by playing some games at that time in the weeks previous
  2. Know which ball is being used and only practice with that
  3. Be prepared, spare bat, drinks, snacks, towel, spare shirt, cash, device etc
  4. Learn about the opposition, ask mates , watch them play etc
  5. Always play grades above as you can have a go and no harm done
  6. Don't overdue the amount of grades and games you enter
  7. Will power, being positive and fight hard


Some very interesting points points from everyone, thank you.

And Mr SmackMan, ratings where I play come primarily from local league matches. So what normally happens is that I pick up points in league matches VS older players whose level is either stagnant or on the way down and then about 4 times a year I lose these points again at tournaments against faster improving juniors or experienced players with difficult serves. 
Back to Top
pingpongpaddy View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 06/27/2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1257
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2021 at 10:02am

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:


Some very interesting points points from everyone, thank you.

And Mr SmackMan, ratings where I play come primarily from local league matches. So what normally happens is that I pick up points in league matches VS older players whose level is either stagnant or on the way down and then about 4 times a year I lose these points again at tournaments against faster improving juniors or experienced players with difficult serves. 


This is a very good thread with interesting points by all..
Over my career I have had some modest success in tournament and rather more at league play but i am not surprised at you finding difference in the two experiences

The Stranger vs Stranger factor
Some deep reflection in this area can be very useful.
I i would offer that because typically in league play you are meeting players who you become familiar with over the years and so its easy to plan strategies and tactics against (as long as you remember opponents can do the same)

On the other hand in tournaments you are more likely to play against strangers which means that your approach to serving and receiving should be a litlle different. Your best 3rd ball tactics for instance, against regular league opponents, in a tournament situation will be used against new opponents and you may find that the level of success can be very different (in both directions) from the league experience
Finally I would say that just getting through to the finals of a one or two day event from the point of view of fitness, concentration is a skill that has to be acquired just like tt technique



Edited by pingpongpaddy - 04/06/2021 at 10:14am
inactive dotec carbokev

yin he galaxy 1 p
ly

FH moristo sp AX MAX

bh moristo sp ax max
Back to Top
Matt Pimple View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 12/03/2012
Location: Phoenix
Status: Offline
Points: 1951
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2021 at 12:29pm
Interesting discussion! When I played as a junior in Germany I also did better in league matches than in tournaments. I enjoyed playing league matches more because you had mates or sometimes even spectators cheer you on which motivated me more. Also you have the advantage of a mate coaching you between sets which I usually didn't have in tournaments. League matches were usually played in smaller gyms whereas tournaments in huge gyms which somehow didn't work as well for me.
Stiga ALL 2000 '76; DHS H3 Neo 2.1, Dr. Neubauer ABS2 2.3

My Feedback
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14161
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2021 at 6:45pm
I was thinking today that the last tournament I won was when I was 17.  I do my best when I play but at the end of the day it doesn't really bother me one way or the other.  I play for fun.  

By the way, the comment above about it being mentally tougher to play a complete stranger than someone whose game you know well is a very good one.  I think people who do well in tournaments are people who handle that better. 

Also playing in unfamiliar places with different lighting, tables, floors etc.  Some peop.e are more adaptable for whatever reason.


Edited by Baal - 04/06/2021 at 6:46pm
Back to Top
obesechopper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 808
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2021 at 8:10pm
Also another factor is traveling... Now sure, if you live in a place that hosts a lot of tournaments... good for you! For myself, I was having to drive 4-5+ hours/flights and then you stay in hotels and whatever else goes along with that. I guess it depends what kind of ritual you have in your own home on whether this bothers you much or not. For me, bad beds... noisy neighbors, not sleeping well and that sort of thing affects the endurance and general wakefulness. Get up with a sore back, pop in some advil and go to war! 

But always keep a pocketful of excuses at the ready LOL
Back to Top
kevo View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/16/2012
Location: ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 454
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 7:13am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Interesting discussion! When I played as a junior in Germany I also did better in league matches than in tournaments. I enjoyed playing league matches more because you had mates or sometimes even spectators cheer you on which motivated me more. Also you have the advantage of a mate coaching you between sets which I usually didn't have in tournaments. League matches were usually played in smaller gyms whereas tournaments in huge gyms which somehow didn't work as well for me.

Totally agree with this. I thrive in League matches, regularly beating much higher ranked players. In tournaments, rarely. In tournaments I tend to lose to lower ranked or 'weaker' players than I would in league. (They are not, obviously weaker on the day if I lose to them!)

I also find the waiting around at tourneys between matches/events, interminably boring, though I do enjoy watching matches, coaching friends in theirs etc. I know some players who do way worse, relative to their rankings/skill level etc. in league play because of the pressure of having to win for the team/club. These players thrive in tournaments playing for themselves. Often enough, I've beaten said players in league play and then lost to them in tournaments when they don't feel under pressure to win. Different personalities suit different formats, I guess.
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 8:00am
As Qui Gon would say, there's always a bigger fish!
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Tenergy 05
Back to Top
ghostzen View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 08/15/2010
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 805
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 8:38am
Agreed there are always better players and stronger ones.

But if you are one of the strongest in your area or region it puts you in a bit better stead when you step up to the next level to win events.

It's also pretty easy to offer advice when the title cupboard is bare.... if that makes sense.



Edited by ghostzen - 04/07/2021 at 11:37am
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 4362
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Agreed there are always better players and stronger ones.

But if you are one of the strongest in your area or region it puts you in a bit better stead when you step up to the next level to win events.

It's also pretty easy to offer advice when the title cupboard is bare.... if that makes sense.


To me USATT is a weird af system. Rating events can be easily won if you game the system by sandbagging. League matches make a lot more sense and are more fun. Winning say a U1500 event is nothing to shout about, it just means that you happened to be the best player among the U1500 group, but that still leaves a huge amount of players who are better than you. I guess a lot of people here have huge egos to satisfy if they're so concerned about winning competitions as an amateur lmao. Just enjoy the process dude...
-------
Hurricane Long 5

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Tenergy 05
Back to Top
pgpg View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1260
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

To me USATT is a weird af system. Rating events can be easily won if you game the system by sandbagging. League matches make a lot more sense and are more fun. Winning say a U1500 event is nothing to shout about, it just means that you happened to be the best player among the U1500 group, but that still leaves a huge amount of players who are better than you. I guess a lot of people here have huge egos to satisfy if they're so concerned about winning competitions as an amateur lmao. Just enjoy the process dude...

The exact same argument applies to lower Divisions in league system: sandbagging to stay in lower division, still plenty of folks who are better than you, hollow satisfaction of winning one...


USATT: ~1840
Nittaku Shake Defense - Fastarc G1 - Dtecs OX
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.313 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2020 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.