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Backhand advantages for short push?

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    Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:01am
So, while watching youtube, I've noticed a recent trend of top players preferring backhand for short push. A lot of them even use backhand for short short push from forehand position.

Ovtcharov does this consistently, but others do it too. I've even seem forehand dominant players like ma long do it some times.

This makes me question my preference of using forehand for short games...

Why?

Edit. I'm not talking about the banana flick or any offensive technique. Just the short push

Edited by DistantStar - 06/17/2014 at 3:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:20am
Because it gives you the option of using the banana flip to start a rally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ztec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:22am
My 2 cents: Backhand flip is an easier and safer shot than the forehand flick. It's more natural to generate spin on backhand flip, which makes it preferable on most returns compared to forehand flick which has more power but has a much smaller window to safely use. IMO Ovtcharov takes it to an extreme where he even pushes everything with his backhand (I still fail to see any benefit to this). I recall Ma Long and ZJK pushing fairly often with forehand and occasionally with backhand, but ZJK almost always flips with his backhand whereas Ma Long has a pretty strong forehand flick compared to most other pros. If you're more comfortable using forehand for short game then do so, WLQ did and it didn't turn out too badly for him now did it? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berkeleydoctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:28am
for me, it is easier to keep pushes short and low with backhand and it is also easier to flick (banana flick), so i constantly use it for short game 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:30am
Holding my blade in BH gives more feeling to my fingers for short game...

Especially if held loosely...

Also ready for a quick "banana flick" if it comes right... But only in the BH court at the moment ...

Short balls to FH are safer with my FH (still loose grip) ...

I'm no ZJK ... But I have delusions of Ovtcharov emulation...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DistantStar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:31am
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Because it gives you the option of using the banana flip to start a rally.


I've considered that option. But the Banana flick often requires anticipation footwork and commitment. If they wanted banana flick but backed out mid way, They would have at least stepped to forehand, and the ball would be directly in front of them. Backhand short game make sense to me in this scenario. But this is not the scenario I'm talking about.

I'm talking about in receiving a short serve to forehand, the receiver did NOT step over, but remained in backhand side of the table. He would extend his hand to the forehand side, but instead of doing short game with forehand side of the rubber (I do this), they position their wrist in a rather awkward way and use their backhand rubber.

Edited by DistantStar - 06/17/2014 at 11:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 11:45am
Originally posted by DistantStar DistantStar wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Because it gives you the option of using the banana flip to start a rally.


I'm talking about in receiving a short serve to forehand, the receiver did NOT step over, but remained in backhand side of the table. He would extend his hand to the forehand side, but instead of doing short game with forehand side of the rubber (I do this), they position their wrist in a rather awkward way and use their backhand rubber.


Yes, this is the over-the-table BH loop, commonly called Banana-flck or Chiquita flick...

The most effective way to get top/side spin on short balls...

The right foot does step to be under the RH half of the table...

This requires speedy footwork to get back to the BH court after the shot is performed and even ZJK was caught out a few times by Ovtcharov when he tried this in their most recent encounter. ...

And no... I can't do it from the RH court... Tried yes.. Tried and failed...

Edited by CraneStyle - 06/17/2014 at 12:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 12:09pm
if you are fat or otherwise immobile BH work from FH corner is a bad idea. My mobility is supersensitive to weight gain. Just 5-6 pounds more and I become lazy and slow. I played a tournament this Sat, and noticed that moving to FH and doing a soft BH opening did not work well. They just punch it back to my deep BH and I can get back on time like ZJK and do a very poor return and now they have initiative and a lose ball and for me its difficult to defend. And those were 1900 dudes. I changed it later to just reaching with FH and kind of flick it deep to their stomach. Not much topspin, just a stupid toss ball, but they couldn't do much with it and I was well positioned in my BH corner. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DistantStar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Originally posted by DistantStar DistantStar wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Because it gives you the option of using the banana flip to start a rally.


I'm talking about in receiving a short serve to forehand, the receiver did NOT step over, but remained in backhand side of the table. He would extend his hand to the forehand side, but instead of doing short game with forehand side of the rubber (I do this), they position their wrist in a rather awkward way and use their backhand rubber.


Yes, this is the over-the-table BH loop, commonly called Banana-flck or Chiquita flick...

The most effective way to get top/side spin on short balls...

The right foot does step to be under the RH half of the table...

This requires speedy footwork to get back to the BH court after the shot is performed and even ZJK was caught out a few times by Ovtcharov when he tried this in their most recent encounter. ...

And no... I can't do it from the RH court... Tried yes.. Tried and failed...


No I'm not talking about the flick. I even capped "did NOT step over" :( it's also a short push, not a flick

Edited by DistantStar - 06/17/2014 at 12:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 12:25pm
I think another advantage to the things already mentioned (i.e. availability of banana flick) is that you can often maintain balance better after attacking short ball with BH compared to trying the same shot with FH.  Consequently, you are in better shape for the next shot.   Obviously that fails if you try to move too far over to the FH side to do this.  How far over you can move depends on your quickness (like Assiduous, I wish I could drop a few pounds) but top players can really get pretty far and still come back.  One thing that I have noticed over last five years or so is that returns of serve are getting a lot better as more and more people learn to attack with their BHs.  This is why I don't  sympathize when some people whine that we need more restrictive rules on serving.

Reading carefully what Distantstar has written, I am not quite sure what shot he is describing.  Can you post a vid?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 12:29pm
It's one of those styles that get very popular for a time.
Even at pro level, some players choose to receive with BH or FH before their opponent serves.
Usually when they receive with BH on their extreme FH side is because they were caught out by the serve's placement and find it quicker/easier to continue the BH receive for that rally.


Edited by Tinykin - 06/17/2014 at 12:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by DistantStar DistantStar wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Because it gives you the option of using the banana flip to start a rally.


I've considered that option. But the Banana flick often requires anticipation footwork and commitment. If they wanted banana flick but backed out mid way, They would have at least stepped to forehand, and the ball would be directly in front of them. Backhand short game make sense to me in this scenario. But this is not the scenario I'm talking about.

I'm talking about in receiving a short serve to forehand, the receiver did NOT step over, but remained in backhand side of the table. He would extend his hand to the forehand side, but instead of doing short game with forehand side of the rubber (I do this), they position their wrist in a rather awkward way and use their backhand rubber.
It's really about what racket angles you are comfortable using to return sidespin serves without popping them up.  It's probably a backhand dominant player who managed to get away with keeping the ball low as a junior using that push and prefers the tradeoff of using it to using his forehand and getting a weaker ball to his opponent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by DistantStar DistantStar wrote:

Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

Originally posted by DistantStar DistantStar wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Because it gives you the option of using the banana flip to start a rally.


I'm talking about in receiving a short serve to forehand, the receiver did NOT step over, but remained in backhand side of the table. He would extend his hand to the forehand side, but instead of doing short game with forehand side of the rubber (I do this), they position their wrist in a rather awkward way and use their backhand rubber.


Yes, this is the over-the-table BH loop, commonly called Banana-flck or Chiquita flick...

The most effective way to get top/side spin on short balls...

The right foot does step to be under the RH half of the table...

This requires speedy footwork to get back to the BH court after the shot is performed and even ZJK was caught out a few times by Ovtcharov when he tried this in their most recent encounter. ...

And no... I can't do it from the RH court... Tried yes.. Tried and failed...



No I'm not talking about the flick. I even capped "did NOT step over" :( it's also a short push, not a flick


Cool...

I do a lot BH push and touch shots in BH & FH/ RH court...

Next time you're at the table use the tip of your bat in BH for push and touch shots...

It's the most sensitive part of the blade (not the side or centre)...

Loose grip as previously mentioned. You will feel the sensations and benefit...

I believe it's a way to have good touch shots with a fast setup...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2014 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by DistantStar DistantStar wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Because it gives you the option of using the banana flip to start a rally.


I've considered that option. But the Banana flick often requires anticipation footwork and commitment. If they wanted banana flick but backed out mid way, They would have at least stepped to forehand, and the ball would be directly in front of them. Backhand short game make sense to me in this scenario. But this is not the scenario I'm talking about.

I'm talking about in receiving a short serve to forehand, the receiver did NOT step over, but remained in backhand side of the table. He would extend his hand to the forehand side, but instead of doing short game with forehand side of the rubber (I do this), they position their wrist in a rather awkward way and use their backhand rubber.


I worked on that exact shot! The awkward contortionist wrist bend into the forehand corner! :P

I did it mainly because watching ZJK and FZD looks awesome! And... the older people at my club kept telling me "no you can't attack those serves! just play defensively!"

The hell I can't! I spent a few weeks drilling this backhand flick on the machine for at least an hour a day. By the end of it, I was able to flick ANY SERVE they hit over the net. Granted they don't have the greatest serves... but at my level (and probably close to yours) I'd wager damn near any hit could be flicked back if you so chose to. You wouldn't believe how many games I've won since then using ONLY the backhand. In fact, my forehand has atrophied to a near comical degree! But it's tough to master all elements as the when being a weekend warrior :)

The simple fact is -- NO ONE expects you to attack shots which the backhand flick allows to be attacked. It's good stuff. Clap

The way I think of it is to "Point the Elbow." Like you were hitting someone in the jaw. Just cock your elbow forward FAST while keeping your wrist near your body and point downward and you'll find how easily you are able to attain a position to use the flick, quite naturally really.

BAM! headshot!




Edited by obesechopper - 06/17/2014 at 1:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king_pong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 4:12am
For the last time - the OP is NOT talking about a BH flick, Chiquita, banana loop or any agressive opening stroke. He's talking about pushing with the backhand side tip of the blade on the Forehand side (ala DiMa Ovtcharov).
Dima does this as it keeps his elbow outwards rather than contorting it inwards, forba FH push. He's thereby more ready to counter with his deadly backhand should the opponent pop up the next ball).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 5:37am
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Because it gives you the option of using the banana flip to start a rally.


Correct. In addition, against reverse sidespin, it allows you to place the ball right or left. If you go forehand, you can only place it left (the wrist can only bend to some extent).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 9:26am
Originally posted by king_pong king_pong wrote:

For the last time - the OP is NOT talking about a BH flick, Chiquita, banana loop or any agressive opening stroke. He's talking about pushing with the backhand side tip of the blade on the Forehand side (ala DiMa Ovtcharov).
Dima does this as it keeps his elbow outwards rather than contorting it inwards, forba FH push. He's thereby more ready to counter with his deadly backhand should the opponent pop up the next ball).


Next time I play I'm going to give this a try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I think another advantage to the things already mentioned (i.e. availability of banana flick) is that you can often maintain balance better after attacking short ball with BH compared to trying the same shot with FH.  Consequently, you are in better shape for the next shot.   Obviously that fails if you try to move too far over to the FH side to do this.  How far over you can move depends on your quickness (like Assiduous, I wish I could drop a few pounds) but top players can really get pretty far and still come back.  One thing that I have noticed over last five years or so is that returns of serve are getting a lot better as more and more people learn to attack with their BHs.  This is why I don't  sympathize when some people whine that we need more restrictive rules on serving.

Reading carefully what Distantstar has written, I am not quite sure what shot he is describing.  Can you post a vid?

IMHO, this is the shot in question (at 12 sec). Ovtcharov does it a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43ru5VaVspo#t=12


Edited by vvk1 - 06/18/2014 at 9:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 9:48am
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:


IMHO, this is the shot in question (at 12 sec). Ovtcharov does it a lot.

 
And he says Waldner taught him too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 9:55am
Yes, I had gone back and checked some Dima videos after reading King Pong's comment.  You are right, he does this a lot.  I think I have better touch in short game with my BH, so I am going to see if this works for me.  It seems like the muscles that I use with a BH push are a little smaller than the ones I typically engage with a FH push, so the physiology predicts slightly finer control and also the ball is more straight on to your eyes.  I notice Dima doesn't move too far out of position relative to his mobility to execute this shot, and that will be the key to figuring out when to do this.  Compared to other top professionals, Dima is not super quick, but compared to normal humans he is obviously very mobile (since top 10 in world).  Knowing how quick you are will tell you what you can get away with. This strategy seems mainly for people with strong opening on BH side. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Yes, I had gone back and checked some Dima videos after reading King Pong's comment.  You are right, he does this a lot.  I think I have better touch in short game with my BH, so I am going to see if this works for me.  It seems like the muscles that I use with a BH push are a little smaller than the ones I typically engage with a FH push, so the physiology predicts slightly finer control and also the ball is more straight on to your eyes.  I notice Dima doesn't move too far out of position relative to his mobility to execute this shot, and that will be the key to figuring out when to do this.  Compared to other top professionals, Dima is not super quick, but compared to normal humans he is obviously very mobile (since top 10 in world).  Knowing how quick you are will tell you what you can get away with. This strategy seems mainly for people with strong opening on BH side. 
Actually, there are lots of people who mock Dima for doing this and argue it is one of the reasons he can't beat the Chinese consistently.  For me, it is my standard push because I have never developed a reall forehand push.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 10:08am
Almost nobody else at the moment beats the Chinese at all, so I'm not going to mock him for not beating them consistently!  I can see why Chinese coaches would hate this shot, though.  I think Dima can do it because his BH is so strong that he likes to be pretty centered to the table.  I am glad that nobody ever coached him out of lot of his strange stuff.  He is not quite like all the other players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 10:13am
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

IMHO, this is the shot in question (at 12 sec). Ovtcharov does it a lot.

I think it's because in that instance, the ball is in his crossover point and it's easier to just extend the elbow and use the BH.  Notice the next serve, the ball is more to his FH side and he does use his FH to make the return.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 10:23am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Almost nobody else at the moment beats the Chinese at all, so I'm not going to mock him for not beating them consistently!  I can see why Chinese coaches would hate this shot, though.  I think Dima can do it because his BH is so strong that he likes to be pretty centered to the table.  I am glad that nobody ever coached him out of lot of his strange stuff.  He is not quite like all the other players.

I remember a extensive discussion in a forum a few years ago (about.com?) in which Werner Schlager argued that Ovtcharov did this because his FH push receive wasn't developed enough relative to his overall level. The Chinese used to utilize short serves to his FH a lot to their advantage. Ovtcharov's reason for doing this probably is to move the rally to a BH-BH exchange and be readier than his opponent at it.

FWIW: Schlager has one of the best FH serve receives in the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 10:29am
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

IMHO, this is the shot in question (at 12 sec). Ovtcharov does it a lot.

I think it's because in that instance, the ball is in his crossover point and it's easier to just extend the elbow and use the BH.  Notice the next serve, the ball is more to his FH side and he does use his FH to make the return.
Dima has taken that push from much more extreme angles before - when you are tall with really long hands, some things are possible that are just bad and probably unimaginable for other players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

IMHO, this is the shot in question (at 12 sec). Ovtcharov does it a lot.

I think it's because in that instance, the ball is in his crossover point and it's easier to just extend the elbow and use the BH.  Notice the next serve, the ball is more to his FH side and he does use his FH to make the return.

I also think that such a BH push is a bit similar to a FH push by a penholder - and gives one more wrist flexibility as opposed to a shakehader's FH push.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 12:15pm
In addition to the other explanations I would like to add this possibility:

He's reading the location of serve earlier than anything else about the serve and is moving to that side to get into position to banana flip if the opportunity arises, but ends up just pushing.  Once on that side of the table, the BH push isn't awkward at all.  

This is just based off the point 12 seconds into the clip above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 12:24pm
I said it before, you choose to ignore...

The tip is the most sensitive part of the blade.,,

And least powerful too...
1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2014 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Almost nobody else at the moment beats the Chinese at all, so I'm not going to mock him for not beating them consistently!  I can see why Chinese coaches would hate this shot, though.  I think Dima can do it because his BH is so strong that he likes to be pretty centered to the table.  I am glad that nobody ever coached him out of lot of his strange stuff.  He is not quite like all the other players.

+1

There's really nothing wrong with Dima's "crossover push" per se.  He has great touch on his backhand, and it appears he can do some spin variation returns with this technique.  It's interesting that someone mentioned that Waldner taught him some things here, as it is similar to the variations that Waldner executes with his forehand return of serve.  Waldner likes to take a lot of serve returns with his forehand, where most others would use a backhand return.  But, it is effective for him because he doesn't just push the ball, rather he sometimes "lifts" the ball or "swipes" across the ball to produce dead ball or topspin returns.  It looks like Dima might be trying to do similar things with this strange backhand return.
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