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consolation vs double-elimination

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    Posted: 04/18/2021 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by anthony96 anthony96 wrote:

I am referring to US Nationals 2021 having consolation events
What is the difference ?

So if I lose in main draw , I go to consolation . If I end up winning consolation I am done.
Double elimination seems to be identical except that I get another shot to win the event.

That is only at most two more matches between winners of main bracket & loser's bracket (if the winner of the loser bracket wins, there will be another match in double elimination)

Am I missing something ?  Only thing I see is that they want a one match finals drama for national title.
But what about other events ?   Could they have made events other than men & women title event to be double elimination ?

Few other odd things I noticed was that  the US Team Trials at Fort Worth only accepts US Passport as proof of citizenship but US Nationals accepts US Passport, US Birth Certificate & US Naturalization certificate. But they are also accepting Voter IDs as proof of citizenship at US Nationals  (No player suppression should drive the Donald crazy LOL).

I heard Mark Thompson say on Podcast that you can upgrade your basic membership to Pro for US Nationals but I read somewhere on USATT site that you cannot do this.  So a basic member  can wait till November or so, to upgrade to Pro membership,  for US Open in December ?

 
If you have a basic membership and you decide that you want to play in the Nationals or Open you would pay the 50.00 player permit fee for each those tournaments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2021 at 4:09am
Hi,

Well, this I heard: The Consolation "event" is for first round losers only.  If you lose in the main event after the first round, you are done, your turkey is cooked, the horse is out of the barn after the door is closed, it is not "better late than never," it's then time for a rendezvous with Heavy Spin at his chosen buffet, as you now have a lot of available time on your hands.  Do not clutter up the playing hall with your presence, watching other matches or coaching someone.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2021 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by anthony96 anthony96 wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

Well, this I heard: The Consolation "event" is for first round losers only.  If you lose in the main event after the first round, you are done, your turkey is cooked, the horse is out of the barn after the door is closed, it is not "better late than never," it's then time for a rendezvous with Heavy Spin at his chosen buffet, as you now have a lot of available time on your hands.  Do not clutter up the playing hall with your presence, watching other matches or coaching someone.

Thanks.

I am not sure about "first round losers" now, because I thought Marty Reisman won the consolation event in Bombay (nka Mumbai)  World Championships in 1952 but I don't think he lost to Satoh in the first round (I may be wrong).
I could only find results on the web from round of 16 for world championships. I thought I have seen full results somewhere (TT Museum ?) but cannot find it

 
Yes, all players who lose their first round match are eligible to play in the corresponding consolation event. So if you are entered in the maximum 6 events you are going to play 12 matches minimum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2021 at 11:02pm
I haven't seen anything on when the consolation matches will be.  I wouldn't want to wait a day or two for one more match.

I just noticed that a bunch of players just dropped out of the tournament.  I think there were 135 signed up a couple of days ago, not only 98.


Edited by mts388 - 04/22/2021 at 11:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2021 at 12:22am
Originally posted by anthony96 anthony96 wrote:

Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by anthony96 anthony96 wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

Well, this I heard: The Consolation "event" is for first round losers only.  If you lose in the main event after the first round, you are done, your turkey is cooked, the horse is out of the barn after the door is closed, it is not "better late than never," it's then time for a rendezvous with Heavy Spin at his chosen buffet, as you now have a lot of available time on your hands.  Do not clutter up the playing hall with your presence, watching other matches or coaching someone.

Thanks.

I am not sure about "first round losers" now, because I thought Marty Reisman won the consolation event in Bombay (nka Mumbai)  World Championships in 1952 but I don't think he lost to Satoh in the first round (I may be wrong).
I could only find results on the web from round of 16 for world championships. I thought I have seen full results somewhere (TT Museum ?) but cannot find it

 
Yes, all players who lose their first round match are eligible to play in the corresponding consolation event. So if you are entered in the maximum 6 events you are going to play 12 matches minimum.

I completely understand your promoting USATT extremely hard but my question is still about how the. consolation event is defined (at least thee days).

I was able to find details of the Reisman situation in Bombay . He says he lost in the round of 32 to Satoh but then went on to win the consolation event. See quotes from his book Money Player at the bottom. 
So what this means is that he won first two rounds an did not lose in first round to Satoh. Then how could consolation be only for first round losers. Sounds to me like consolation is double elimination  minus  cross-over finals (one or two more matches). So what I said in my first post about DE or CE formats is correct. But then again who knows, may be the consolation event can be defined to be losers upto certain rounds depending on how the tournament directors want. This also means Reisman beat the likes of the World Champion Sido & 4 time World champion Bergmann (Bergmann lost to Satoh in the first or second round) to win his consolation title. Unless Reisman was embellishing (I was told there were many in that book but that has to be the most entertaining book on table tennis nonetheless)


Quotes from Reisman book 'Money Player' below 


Page -126-

Regardless, in Bombay in 1952, after my defeat by Satoh, I could not afford to meditate on the long-range effects of sponge rubber. First of all, I was determined that the Bombay tournament would not be a complete loss. After my loss to Satoh I entered the World Consolation bracket. I won it easily, taking six straight matches.

Page -123-

I had been one of the heavy favorites to take the World Championship before the tournament had begun. Now Satoh was the favorite. We were paired in the same bracket and increasingly I saw my match with him as the crucial one.

We both won our early matches and then, with thirty- two players remaining in the competition, we faced each other. Almost every player in the tournament was rooting for me, not because I was that popular, but because there was a growing fear that Satoh s racket would revolutionize the game and replace the established order with an entire new breed of player: a player not gifted with classic strokes but a trickster relying on a mechanical advantage.

 
  
I'm not promoting the tournament. I'm not even going because of the format doesn't make sense to go financially for me at least. I'm just explaining how the consolation events work, 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2021 at 12:24am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

I haven't seen anything on when the consolation matches will be.  I wouldn't want to wait a day or two for one more match.

I just noticed that a bunch of players just dropped out of the tournament.  I think there were 135 signed up a couple of days ago, not only 98.
Mike, all players who didn't pay when they signed up were removed from the entry list and players were emailed they were being removed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2021 at 3:19am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

I haven't seen anything on when the consolation matches will be.  I wouldn't want to wait a day or two for one more match.

I just noticed that a bunch of players just dropped out of the tournament.  I think there were 135 signed up a couple of days ago, not only 98.

I think they did that when they heard free complimentary breakfast buffet was cancelled.

Joking aside, you going? I tend ot go to some big events together with a group of frineds, good chance I will be there, prolly decide one way or the other soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2021 at 8:25am
Originally posted by anthony96 anthony96 wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

Well, this I heard: The Consolation "event" is for first round losers only.  If you lose in the main event after the first round, you are done, your turkey is cooked, the horse is out of the barn after the door is closed, it is not "better late than never," it's then time for a rendezvous with Heavy Spin at his chosen buffet, as you now have a lot of available time on your hands.  Do not clutter up the playing hall with your presence, watching other matches or coaching someone.

Thanks.

I am not sure about "first round losers" now, because I thought Marty Reisman won the consolation event in Bombay (nka Mumbai)  World Championships in 1952 but I don't think he lost to Satoh in the first round (I may be wrong).
I could only find results on the web from round of 16 for world championships. I thought I have seen full results somewhere (TT Museum ?) but cannot find it

 

Your above posting is a description of a double elimination format.  My contribution was an attempt to briefly describe the consolation format at the 2021 U.S. Nationals in Las Vegas as I understood it.  I believe my description is accurate.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2021 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

I haven't seen anything on when the consolation matches will be.  I wouldn't want to wait a day or two for one more match.

I just noticed that a bunch of players just dropped out of the tournament.  I think there were 135 signed up a couple of days ago, not only 98.

I think they did that when they heard free complimentary breakfast buffet was cancelled.

Joking aside, you going? I tend ot go to some big events together with a group of frineds, good chance I will be there, prolly decide one way or the other soon.

I love the nationals and open, but not going to this one.  Playing one or two matches a day isn't worth the trip.  

Just out of curiousity, where did you find any friends? Smile  

mjamja will be here this afternoon and leaving on Tuesday.  Feel free to come down.
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