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dealing with long pips attacks

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    Posted: 03/30/2021 at 7:28pm
So there's a stroke that they use that is incredibly disturbing, which is when they do some sort of push or sideswipe on an underspin ball, and the ball comes at me quite fast with no arc, but somehow having quite a lot of topspin. 

I'm actually not even too fazed by the chopblock off my topspins, I know it's underspin and it's quite simple to either push them or continue looping them. It's this push/sideswipe attack that really drives me crazy. How do you guys deal with it haha... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/30/2021 at 9:19pm
One thing to try is to push with minimal underspin.  The less you give them the less top you get back.  I like getting light top back rather than dead so I try to push light underspin instead of dead.

A drill I like to do (or pregame warmup) is to start a normal topspin ball, take the returned underspin and push as short as I can, and then counter the topspin that comes back.  Then it starts all over again with push, counter, push.  I play just aggressive enough against the topspin to keep the rally going.  After a few cycles I loop the topspin return.  This gives me a good feel of how much topspin is coming back.   You can also start with a short underspin serve and get topspin back first, counter, then push as an alternative way to run the cycle.

For a while you just have to remind yourself after each push "it is topspin coming back".  After a while you start to adjust automatically.

The sideswipe adds an additional element of deception since the ball does not go in the direction of the swipe (as it does with inverted) but instead travels more perpendicular to the racket face.  This tends to make you late to the ball or lean and reach.  Other than practicing against it repeatedly it is hard to react correctly automatically.   

This is the kind of thing that makes me love practicing with LP players.  I can drill where I get to see more of a certain type of LP shot in 15 min than I might see in 4 or 5 matches over a month if I try to avoid the LP players.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 1:13am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

So there's a stroke that they use that is incredibly disturbing, which is when they do some sort of push or sideswipe on an underspin ball, and the ball comes at me quite fast with no arc, but somehow having quite a lot of topspin. 

I'm actually not even too fazed by the chopblock off my topspins, I know it's underspin and it's quite simple to either push them or continue looping them. It's this push/sideswipe attack that really drives me crazy. How do you guys deal with it haha... 

What about medium pips attack like killer pro?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 2:19am
if they hit with LP, try blocking with a more open angle like 100 or 110 degrees. This will prevent the ball from hitting the net assuming the lp attack is like a flick or hit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 5:57am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

One thing to try is to push with minimal underspin.  The less you give them the less top you get back.  I like getting light top back rather than dead so I try to push light underspin instead of dead.

A drill I like to do (or pregame warmup) is to start a normal topspin ball, take the returned underspin and push as short as I can, and then counter the topspin that comes back.  Then it starts all over again with push, counter, push.  I play just aggressive enough against the topspin to keep the rally going.  After a few cycles I loop the topspin return.  This gives me a good feel of how much topspin is coming back.   You can also start with a short underspin serve and get topspin back first, counter, then push as an alternative way to run the cycle.

For a while you just have to remind yourself after each push "it is topspin coming back".  After a while you start to adjust automatically.

The sideswipe adds an additional element of deception since the ball does not go in the direction of the swipe (as it does with inverted) but instead travels more perpendicular to the racket face.  This tends to make you late to the ball or lean and reach.  Other than practicing against it repeatedly it is hard to react correctly automatically.   

This is the kind of thing that makes me love practicing with LP players.  I can drill where I get to see more of a certain type of LP shot in 15 min than I might see in 4 or 5 matches over a month if I try to avoid the LP players.

Mark

Very sound advice Mark... Yeah now that I think about it, it behaves super differently from an inverted sideswipe which is why I misread its trajectory so often :( 

What usually happens is I chiquita or loop super spinny, then it gets chopblocked back too short and spinny too which forces me to push, then it gets sideswiped to hell lol... if I just block, or If I don't loop with sufficient quality then it gets crushed by his forehand loop which is merciless.


Edited by blahness - 03/31/2021 at 5:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 9:41am
Hi,

This matter is of some complexity.

Three primary variables influence one's ability to judge the characteristics of the on-coming ball from a long pips' shot.

1)  The spin coming to the long pips: Long pips contains the ability, with little skill application from its user, to return the rotation of the ball it is encountering.

What is important for the player is to control two of the ball spin variables; namely, spin type and spin amount.  A very large percentage of success of long pips usage is the somewhat ironic understanding that players often have poor understandings of the spin type and spin amount they create.  This weakness is mitigated against the rubbers which impart onto the ball their own distinct characteristics.  However, with long pips, the ball characteristics from the spin type and amount perspective are returned.

One correct, standard advisory concerning spin type is to not create sidespin into long pips.  This sidespin creation produces a spin/spin ratio of topspin/sidespin or underspin/sidespin.  The ability to understand these ratios were they to be returned is on a precision scale very few players ever attain.  The two primary technical sources of this sidespin creation to be avoided are sidespin serves and rally techniques such as the banana and the strawberry.

A second sound advisory, for the two foundational spins of the sport, topspin and underspin, is to very significantly narrow the range of each of the spin amounts when playing into the long pips.  This narrowness of the player's spin amount range into the long pips will result in a narrowness of the spin amount range returned.

2)  The type of long pips rubber:  Because long pips holds a regal position in the dark side, discussions of the great variety and diversity of long pips rubber selection is restricted to the anonymous in a sub-culture inhabiting a  special place in their own constructed simulated Dark Web.  The pathologies of the equipment junkie are finely represented and in full flight here.

Nothing short of an explosion of long pips rubbers has occurred under the oblivious eye of its intended victims.  Despite being in an era post-time that the authorities burst in to ban a large number of long pips due to the agreed-upon excesses, the undaunted remain undaunted in their long pips creations.

The precise technical variations must be left to the responsible engineers.  That said, the variables within which the engineers function may be discussed among the peasants. 

The principle theme that summarizes the sought-after long pips is the degree in which it influences the characteristics of the ball it produces.  The more the rubber can impart onto the ball, the greater the capabilities the rubber holds to employ in offensive executions.  The two structural factors fostering this desired offensive option are: 1) Sponge, including thickness and hardness, and 2) Pip stiffness, with the stiffer the pip, the increased ability to impart onto the ball offensive characteristics.

These spin effects capabilities apply to the other spins that may be created, including underspin and sidespin.

On the other end of the technical spectrum, the less stiff the pip and the less sponge employed, the less influence is imparted onto the ball and the greater are the return-characteristics' capabilities realized.

3)  Long pips player stroke techniques:  In reference to the above discussion on different long pips rubbers, the degree to which stroke techniques are influential is proportional to the ability of the specific rubber to influence the ball characteristics.

To the residents of the long pips culture, no dilemma is more frequently contended with than the sharp contrast between the deep-seeded desire to play offensive shots with long pips and the ever-desired ability to return the ball characteristics back to the opponent to induce deception.  Nothing even remotely compares to the promotion of long pips equipment sales than this to-and-fro, warp-and-weft, flotsam-and-jetsam psychic turmoil.

Conclusion:  Despite the equipment rule changes intended to dampen its effect, the three primary variables cited above will give foundational strength to the presence of long pips in table tennis.  The most important practical conclusion for the harried opponent is this:

1) Keep these three variables in mind when playing against long pips.  All three are highly influential in your play dynamics.

2) Recognize and respect the opponent's desire to deceive you.  At times, your opponent will be successful.  Your goal in the match is to manage this element sufficiently, not to eliminate it completely.

3) Learn throughout the match.  Each set of the three variables is unique to your opponent.  Concentrate and learn with each point the influence of each of the variables.  Also, some experimentation may be used during the match to explore consequences.  The time period of a match is enough time to learn enough to win.

Thanks.


Edited by DonnOlsen - 03/31/2021 at 9:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WingTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 1:08pm
If you know it's low arc and top spin, then loop it back with a closer blade angle and slightly more compact stroke and gettting a bit closer and taking the ball earlier than you normally would. Put it on their weaker forehand side assuming they have a weaker inverted forehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

If you know it's low arc and top spin, then loop it back with a closer blade angle and slightly more compact stroke and gettting a bit closer and taking the ball earlier than you normally would. Put it on their weaker forehand side assuming they have a weaker inverted forehand.

The forehand side is actually much, much stronger than the LPs which is why I have to play into it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 6:42pm
Several ways to go about it. Does he have fast feet? What if you bump the ball back with less spin, but up higher? Does he pivot to FH, can he hit those with his BH pips? 

Practice no spin pushes, or lower spin if you don't want as much coming back. 

The BH LP punch against back spin is one of my favorite shots! It is hardest for me to do vs top spin and no spin. What I've encountered some times is similar to what I try and do to filthy banana flickers. You just... bait them in! Anticipate where their shot will go, and give a hard counter. Keep the ball in a less than ideal position for them, but comfortable enough to where they will still attempt the shot. Angles/placement are important here, so be wary and find out what his weakest are. 

I play a very similar style to the one you've described. Heavy FH attacks with the BH LP as a setup/safety wing, that is capable of defending many hard incoming balls. Basically a wall on one side and a cannon on the other! I would first try floating balls a bit higher to the BH side and see what he does. Make sure they land long on the table, as anything short will be fairly easy to angle you off into danger. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Several ways to go about it. Does he have fast feet? What if you bump the ball back with less spin, but up higher? Does he pivot to FH, can he hit those with his BH pips? 

Practice no spin pushes, or lower spin if you don't want as much coming back. 

The BH LP punch against back spin is one of my favorite shots! It is hardest for me to do vs top spin and no spin. What I've encountered some times is similar to what I try and do to filthy banana flickers. You just... bait them in! Anticipate where their shot will go, and give a hard counter. Keep the ball in a less than ideal position for them, but comfortable enough to where they will still attempt the shot. Angles/placement are important here, so be wary and find out what his weakest are. 

I play a very similar style to the one you've described. Heavy FH attacks with the BH LP as a setup/safety wing, that is capable of defending many hard incoming balls. Basically a wall on one side and a cannon on the other! I would first try floating balls a bit higher to the BH side and see what he does. Make sure they land long on the table, as anything short will be fairly easy to angle you off into danger. 

I'm a filthy banana flicker too lmao I will flick almost everything (except for obvious pure heavy backspin), it is one of my strongest weapons. 

Yeah, I know it only works against backspin, but it's hard to avoid after he forces a push out of me by a short chopblock of my heavy spin loop which I cannot continue looping. That ball has so much backspin on it that even just touching it back will give him a lot of backspin to work with (which is his source of topspin to use). Maybe there's some way of killing the spin on the push off this heavy backspin ball, would love some tips on how to do that.

He will attack any weaker balls with great consistency (both LP and inverted FH), which is why I tend to be quite aggressive in my playstyle. I typically do not push against penholders unless I'm forced to... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 7:29pm
Why don't you do the first loop with less spin, see if he pops it up and then go for a kill shot? Or be sure to loop closer to the white line. To me the best bet is still seeing where they usually aim, and try to exploit those. And the overall strategy, you might go about it slower. Don't try to kill the ball so fast and wait for better setups that he can't return as easily. Your entire rhythm/expectation is probably being disrupted, and you still try your usual strategy. 

So unless you can consistently hit/kill the long pip returns, just wait a bit longer and slow play it. A 'weaker' first attack, that will not give him much to work with and then if his return isn't too tight... come in with a fireball finisher to his weakest area. If it's a decent return, then reset and wait for the right ball. If his FH side is that strong, then perhaps bait him there too and see if your blocking/countering is more consistent than his attacks. 

This is probably the type of setup you get killed on : https://youtu.be/6v2ghNQXaQg?t=293


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WingTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 7:37pm
The secret to my success against the LP blockers I've played is to take their returns about as early as I can and concentrate on getting the ball over quickly/speed and putting only as much spin on the ball to get it on the table so as to not give them spin to work with. This is where the inverted advantage shines against LP blocks. You can put more pressure on them than they can you if you force them into a fast rally close to the table is what I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 7:54pm
Avoid these players, and lefties, penholders, smashers just play with the loopers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

The secret to my success against the LP blockers I've played is to take their returns about as early as I can and concentrate on getting the ball over quickly/speed and putting only as much spin on the ball to get it on the table so as to not give them spin to work with. This is where the inverted advantage shines against LP blocks. You can put more pressure on them than they can you if you force them into a fast rally close to the table is what I believe.

interesting strat... I might want to steal this!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Avoid these players, and lefties, penholders, smashers just play with the loopers

Lmao I wish I could.... nah LP players are legit, i actually tried LPs a few times myself, it's not as easy as it seems to be able to be so consistent in defending against loops of all sorts.


Edited by blahness - 03/31/2021 at 8:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Why don't you do the first loop with less spin, see if he pops it up and then go for a kill shot? Or be sure to loop closer to the white line. To me the best bet is still seeing where they usually aim, and try to exploit those. And the overall strategy, you might go about it slower. Don't try to kill the ball so fast and wait for better setups that he can't return as easily. Your entire rhythm/expectation is probably being disrupted, and you still try your usual strategy. 

So unless you can consistently hit/kill the long pip returns, just wait a bit longer and slow play it. A 'weaker' first attack, that will not give him much to work with and then if his return isn't too tight... come in with a fireball finisher to his weakest area. If it's a decent return, then reset and wait for the right ball. If his FH side is that strong, then perhaps bait him there too and see if your blocking/countering is more consistent than his attacks. 

This is probably the type of setup you get killed on : https://youtu.be/6v2ghNQXaQg?t=293



Yes the setup is very similar to how I get killed on, and he also attacks with his LPs (if it's high then it's just a straight LP point ending flathit, if it's lower with more underspin he uses the sideswipe to attack). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2021 at 9:30pm
I find many people practicing avoid me  as a long pimple player, others enjoy the challenge, I have two friends who use long pips on a penhold forehand who attack nearly every shot, both very good
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 5:33am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

I find many people practicing avoid me  as a long pimple player, others enjoy the challenge, I have two friends who use long pips on a penhold forehand who attack nearly every shot, both very good

I always thought you were double inverted! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TwiddleDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 3:53pm
Learn how to play with a slow hardbat. I started playing with a large face Hock bat a few years ago. Probably the slowest hardbat available. I learned by playing another hardbat player who was very good. Most long pips players do not like playing against hardbat, especially if that player can flat hit, which I can do quite well. If I face a long pips hitter, chopper, blocker, I just play against them with my hardbat. Much easier for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by TwiddleDee TwiddleDee wrote:

Learn how to play with a slow hardbat. I started playing with a large face Hock bat a few years ago. Probably the slowest hardbat available. I learned by playing another hardbat player who was very good. Most long pips players do not like playing against hardbat, especially if that player can flat hit, which I can do quite well. If I face a long pips hitter, chopper, blocker, I just play against them with my hardbat. Much easier for me.

The guy is a penholder who murders low spin balls with his FH loop lol, this is why it's so difficult to play against him. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TwiddleDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 8:04pm
Perhaps I misunderstood. Does this player flip a lot, or just use the long pips on the backhand ? If the player doesn't flip, I still use a hardbat against them, and play their backhand. It is very difficult for them to attack that way. If they are a good flipper, well, then they are hard to beat with a hardbat. Against players like that, I serve in-between balls with my hardbat and try to keep them off balance. 
I use a Hock No. 74, 25-153 with Dr. Evil. This combination actually allows for brush looping underspin balls. It can also attack long, heavy spin serves. Fast, dead ball serves are the most difficult to attack, but can be pushed deep and dead. 
When I was using my Viscaria and 05Hard against very good long pips, backhand players. I served long fast almost pure sidespin to their backhand, and would pretty much get the same return every time. Then, looped it forward, contacting the ball at 12 o'clock. 
I'm getting too old to effectively do that strategy anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by TwiddleDee TwiddleDee wrote:

Perhaps I misunderstood. Does this player flip a lot, or just use the long pips on the backhand ? If the player doesn't flip, I still use a hardbat against them, and play their backhand. It is very difficult for them to attack that way. If they are a good flipper, well, then they are hard to beat with a hardbat. Against players like that, I serve in-between balls with my hardbat and try to keep them off balance. 
I use a Hock No. 74, 25-153 with Dr. Evil. This combination actually allows for brush looping underspin balls. It can also attack long, heavy spin serves. Fast, dead ball serves are the most difficult to attack, but can be pushed deep and dead. 
When I was using my Viscaria and 05Hard against very good long pips, backhand players. I served long fast almost pure sidespin to their backhand, and would pretty much get the same return every time. Then, looped it forward, contacting the ball at 12 o'clock. 
I'm getting too old to effectively do that strategy anymore.

Yes he's very aggressive with flicks or some weird penhold receives (I lost track of them, there must be like 10 different types with both long pips and inverted receives)... Any sort of loose return (including normal long pushes) will get absolutely crushed by the strong penhold FH.

I managed to solve the first part of his game with his serves with chiquita/flick or looping, it's the second part that's quite a bit harder.


Edited by blahness - 04/03/2021 at 9:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TwiddleDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 11:17am
He must have great footwork to get to his forehand so quickly. My coach always told me to play into the long pips because you can dictate the return. He said to serve just one spin into it, or fast deep dead serves. It took me a lot of practice to learn the fast dead one. The fast, deep, pure sidespin serve was much easier to learn. A friend of mine used his backhand to serve some type of corkscrew spin to long pips, whereby he touched the ball around 6 o'clock. My other friend, who made it to around 2200, served slower, in-between very light spin balls into the long pips. He also had this fake dead ball serve that looked like underspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2021 at 11:00pm
Had some training recently and was able to counterloop these surprisingly easy once i reprogrammed my brain to see them as topspin rather than underspin balls haha... 

It's quite the adjustment to make tho...
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Hurricane Long 5

FH: Dignics 09c
BH: Tenergy 05
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