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Attacking chops come from Inverted vs Pips. |
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skip3119 
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 Topic: Attacking chops come from Inverted vs Pips.Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:00pm |
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Don t know if this kind of survey has been done before, if so I am sorry.
There are many world class players videos available, interesting to see what TT players here think. By "Misses", I mean the ball going into the net or flying off the table. Beside voting, if you want to comment, please feel free to do so. Thank you very much.
Edited by skip3119 - 12/08/2014 at 7:11pm |
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cole_ely
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:06pm |
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It s hard for me to separate the circumstances from the question, but percentage-wise I m going to go with long pips. It seems like I can always lift an inverted push...not sure if it s an attack, but the spin resulting is pretty formidable at my level and I can usually place it.
With long pips, I m more likely to push to hard and then not get over the next shot well enough. Also, at the beginning of the match I m more likely than at the end.
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cole_ely
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:07pm |
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actually, I think I may have misunderstood the question. Are you asking if it s easy to attack with pips, or vs pips?
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:13pm |
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================================ Based on the world-class players videos that we have seen.
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skip3119
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NextLevel
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:17pm |
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This really isn t worth a poll. It all depends on the spin the chopper received and chopped.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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vvk1
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:32pm |
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+1. IMHO, it all depends on the experience of both players. Equipment is the least important part of the equation.
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JohnnyChop
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:35pm |
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are you asking which side is easier to disguise spin variation?
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zeio
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:37pm |
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By the percentage of misses, do you mean the error rate of the chopper or the other player?
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+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:54pm |
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================== The attacker.
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skip3119
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 7:55pm |
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================== No.
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cheondo
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 8:05pm |
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I voted the same, b/c it depends on the skill of the player who is chopping.. and it depends what LPs the guy is using and if there s sponge. Thick sponge on d-tecs is very hard to read what s coming at you -- could be anything from a dead ball, to heavily loaded.
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 8:05pm |
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I just counted the 1st game of Yu Ziyang vs Muramatsu Yuto.
(All other strokes are not counted, only count about chops.) Yu didn t miss a single attack from Muramatsu s chops from INVERTED. Yu missed 5 attacks from Muramatsu s chops from PIPS. But that really doesn t tell much, because Muramatsu uses PIPS to chop 90%+ times. *** Sorry to hear from my good friend, NextLevel, who has a different opinion in that he considers this isn t worth asking people s opinion. *** Note: I also looked at the first game Muramatsu vs Xue Fei, Yuto did not chop much in that game, may need to count another game of these two players.
Edited by skip3119 - 12/08/2014 at 8:35pm |
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zeio
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 8:42pm |
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It s probably worthwhile to also count the misses from both wings of the chopper and cross-reference them.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 8:46pm |
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========================== Same chopper player. So skill level is the same and the equipment is the same. Take too much time to count. (One has to replay the video again and again to count correctly.) Against an attacker that the chopper lost to. And, against another attacker that the same chopper won. May be "NextLevel" is right. Also, may be I did not express myself clearly and correctly. Edited by skip3119 - 12/08/2014 at 8:52pm |
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skip3119
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JohnnyChop
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 8:50pm |
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i am assuming normal misses are caused by misreading the spin then more misses will come from the side that the chopper is better at disguising spin variations
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729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1
Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 9:16pm |
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Same chopper:
Against an attacker that the chopper won. and Against an attacker that the chopper lost. Counting misses of both matches from chops by INVERTED and by PIPS. Basically we will have 4 sets of data to look at: Two sets of data the chopper won the match, and two sets of data that the chopper lost the match. May be this survey is bad as NextLevel said. =========================== Looking at the same chopper is to eliminate the chopper s skill level and equipment bias. Looking at two matches (one chopper won and one chopper lost) is to eliminate the bias of the opponent s skill level. -------------------------------------------------- When looking at these 4 sets of data, one can tell if chops from Inverted or from pips are more difficult to deal with - since all the biases are eliminated. Since it is too time consuming to count, I took a short-cut and posted a survey in the hope that people may have opinions right off their heads. (It turned out I was wrong on my hope. The NextLevel may be right.) Edited by skip3119 - 12/08/2014 at 10:41pm |
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skip3119
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zeio
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Posted: 12/08/2014 at 9:47pm |
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This topic is worth discussing once you factor in what the pros say. Remember that at the Hungarian Open 2012, JSH attributed his win over ZJK partly to his changing the backhand rubber.
Edited by zeio - 12/08/2014 at 10:17pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 12/09/2014 at 1:36am |
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Skip3119, my *very* good friend, it is worth asking people s opinion. A poll just doesn t help, IMO, and the poll was what I took minor issue with not the question.. Chopping heavy topspin with inverted is a nightmare. It s really hard to consistently keep the ball low and contacting the ball to continue the spin is difficult - many inverted players can t chop back with really heavy spin vs. topspin for that reason - the inverted has already sent out the ball before spin can be seriously added. However, if the ball has light topspin, no spin or backspin on it, inverted will give you the most backspin because it will take the spin from the chopping motion. Pips react to spin less and long pips actually bend and enhance the spin pass through process, creating heavy backspin when chopper chops a heavy loop. However, if the spin the chopper can generate is largely limited by the incoming spin. At higher levels, a chopper needs to be consistent. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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kakapo
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Posted: 12/09/2014 at 6:56am |
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1) with long pimples, your shots are predictable, the more the attacker puts spins on his loops, the more the backspin will be heavy so the defender is not able to vary himself the amount of spin,
2) with short pimples, the defender is able to vary the amount of backspin but the ball will never be 100% heavy backspinned. I play with SP and my opponents often miss because of this spin variation. 3) when you chop with inverted, you can also put a lot of spin variation. It depends also of the rubber you use. Before I used to chop with T64 and it works very well. Now, I have found better with H3 neo national. IMO, the most difficult ball for the attacker are not especially the very low ones, but the deep and quiet high ones. On the low ones, a good and smart player will adjust his way of looping or will find a well placed and short push but on the long and high ones, he will at 99% of the time try to hit it because : -he is tempted because of the high ball -it is not easy to control a push or a loop from that place. Very often, the attacker will miss and the ball finish in the net.
Edited by kakapo - 12/09/2014 at 6:57am |
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Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/09/2014 at 10:50am |
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Offer: The winner of this contest will get a free brand new blade as shown in the following link, and the shipping cost will be on me.
http://www.pingpongdepot.com/jomvirtue/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=1707&category_id=112&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64 ===================== Looking at the same chopper is to eliminate the chopper s skill level and equipment bias. Looking at two matches (one chopper won and one chopper lost) is to eliminate the bias of the opponent s skill level. Don t count any other strokes, just count the chops and attacks on chops. Please PM me your counts: Muramatsu Yuto vs Yu Ziyang: (Yuto lost) 1. How many chops from INVERTED made by Yuto and how many attacks by Ziyang that missed. 2. How many chops from PIPS made by Yuto and how many attacks by Ziyang that missed. List the data by games. ----------------------------------------------- Muramatsu Yuto vs Xue Fei: (Yuto won) 3. How many chops from INVERTED made by Yuto and how many attacks by Fei that missed. 4. How many chops from PIPS made by Yuto and how many attacks by Fei that missed. List the data by games. =========================== PM me your counts. If more than one enter this contest within 12 hours, the results are considered to be tied. The tie breaker will be "accuracy" by random check on one game only. If only one enters, there will be a random check on one game. If the Accuracy is at least 80%. He wins. ============================ I have only one blade, so there can be only one winner. The offer ends at 12:00 PM mid-night this Friday. If this offer violates any MYTT.net s policy, the offer will be invalid. Edited by skip3119 - 12/09/2014 at 11:02am |
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mahomedy13
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Posted: 12/09/2014 at 11:47am |
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when counting the chops,do we count the whole game or just a match?(between the players)
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mahomedy13
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Posted: 12/09/2014 at 11:48am |
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*Set or match?
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/09/2014 at 11:59am |
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=================================== The whole match, that s 4 games (or 4 sets). List the counts for each game. *** If there are ties, and if a contestant does not win because of slightly "inaccurate" count, the contestant will get 3 new Nittaku 3*** balls (cellulord, regular Nittaku 3***, not Premium). The shipping cost will be on me. *** The maximum non-winning contestants can win the balls are 3. Thus, I will ship only 9 balls to the 3 non-winning contestants and the shipping costs will be all on me.
Edited by skip3119 - 12/09/2014 at 12:18pm |
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/09/2014 at 12:47pm |
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Just noticed that mahomedy13 is from South Africa. I am amending my offer to the 3 non-winning contestants.
3 non-winning contestants to receive 3 new Nittaku balls must be from North America. Otherwise the shipping costs will far exceed the worth of the balls - the shipping can cost me a lot. mahomedy13 is exempt from this amendment. The blade will be shipped to the winner no matter where he lives. ==================== Please feel free to vote.
Edited by skip3119 - 12/09/2014 at 12:55pm |
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skip3119
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/09/2014 at 1:14pm |
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Please PM me your count results.
After the deadline (12PM mid-night, this coming Friday) is passed, all count results will be posted on this board.
Edited by skip3119 - 12/09/2014 at 2:12pm |
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/10/2014 at 10:12am |
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Even when the ball going to Muramatsu s forehand, easier for him just use his FH inverted to chop - but sometimes he just run to his right side and uses his BH pips to chop.
He seems to prefer to use his pips to chop. Of the videos I watched, most modern defenders, if not all, behave that way.
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skip3119
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mahomedy13
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Posted: 12/10/2014 at 10:22am |
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I think its mainly due to the spin and slow speed that the pips offer. |
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skip3119
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Posted: 12/10/2014 at 10:56am |
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=========================================================== The purpose of this is to look into the % misses by the attacker against chops from inverted and pips. So the chops that didn t land on the table correctly should not be included. A contestant included the chops that didn t even land on the table as the total number of chops made. He has to do that part again. I didn t make myself clear enough and caused him extra time to recount that part. It is my fault and that contestant will be preferentially treated. |
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ZApenholder
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Posted: 12/10/2014 at 12:44pm |
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Regarding the pips or inverted causing "misses"
It depends on players (that is doing the defending) A player like Wu Yang has more varition on her FH (inverted) chop (spin or no spin), than oppose to BH (Long Pimple) - which is based on incoming spin. Ding Ning (one of the weakest players again choppers) normally has more problems with WY s FH by looping too long, and some times Wu Yang will tactically force Ding Ning to not loop hard enough and it ended up in the net (with both FH or BH chop) So just saying, its different per player |
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kakapo
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Posted: 12/11/2014 at 3:07am |
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I 100% agree with your comment but WY plays with short pimples in the backhand. With that SP, she is able to surprise the opponent with hits and that brings her some very important points. With LP s, it would be nearly impossible to do it.
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cole_ely wrote: