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Why do Rubbers Click?

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    Posted: 03/03/2011 at 10:22pm
Please enlighten me regarding the following:
 
  1. T or F: built-in speed glue effect = tensor?
  2. What causes a rubber with built-in speed glue effect to *click*, aka cork, when looping? Why don't all soft rubbers click?
  3. CJ8000 2-wing looper from Palio is advertised to have the built-in speed glue effect and produce a loud metallic sound on contact. My experience is that it doesn't. Can the blade and/or an improper glue job cause it not to click?
  4. HK1997 Biotech also from Palio domes but also does not click. Does this mean it is a tensor rubber but without the built-in speed glue effect (related to first question)?
  5. Do the DHS Hurricane and TG rubbers click. No tuning? After tuning?
  6. Can medium to hard Chinese rubbers be made to click with tuning or even speed gluing?
  7. If the Chinese players are tuning their rubbers, hence softening them, then they're not really playing with "hard" rubbers now are they? Why not just use softer rubbers with tacky topsheets?
  8. With all the discussion about how much more demanding it is to play with hard, tacky Chinese rubbers, and admiration for those who manage to play successfully with it, I wonder how many are actually still playing with those rubbers, un-speedglued, untuned? Even the Chinese pros don't play with them, so does it make sense for anyone else to stick with them?

Thanks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/03/2011 at 11:38pm
My H2 Neo doesn't click 'un tuned'.  I have no plans to 'tune' it to see if it clicks when tuned.

The noise doesn't get the ball on the table.  None of my rubbers 'click' but my 729 Bomb does make a distinctive 'corky' higher pitched sound.  Perhaps that is due to the cork in the paddle , not the rubber.

I don't see why the sound is so important.  It is how the rubber plays that counts.  T05 plays well with out the click.  Sound maybe the by product of some good playing rubbers but it is not the cause of why the rubbers play well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 12:15am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Please enlighten me regarding the following:
 
  1. T or F: built-in speed glue effect = tensor?
  2. What causes a rubber with built-in speed glue effect to *click*, aka cork, when looping? Why don't all soft rubbers click?
  3. CJ8000 2-wing looper from Palio is advertised to have the built-in speed glue effect and produce a loud metallic sound on contact. My experience is that it doesn't. Can the blade and/or an improper glue job cause it not to click?
  4. HK1997 Biotech also from Palio domes but also does not click. Does this mean it is a tensor rubber but without the built-in speed glue effect (related to first question)?
  5. Do the DHS Hurricane and TG rubbers click. No tuning? After tuning?
  6. Can medium to hard Chinese rubbers be made to click with tuning or even speed gluing?
  7. If the Chinese players are tuning their rubbers, hence softening them, then they're not really playing with "hard" rubbers now are they? Why not just use softer rubbers with tacky topsheets?
  8. With all the discussion about how much more demanding it is to play with hard, tacky Chinese rubbers, and admiration for those who manage to play successfully with it, I wonder how many are actually still playing with those rubbers, un-speedglued, untuned? Even the Chinese pros don't play with them, so does it make sense for anyone else to stick with them?

Thanks.


I'm sure the infamous sound comes from nothing more than hitting something that's under pressure and having it return to shape, if you have enough pressure on a sponge and top sheet it'll make a sound when you hit it hard enough in the right direction. ESN Tensors.. are the sponges really under tension.. well no, but they have certainly the most elastic top sheets in the business and to go with it they loose elasticity the quickest, that's just how the planet works. The top sheet maybe under some slight tension against the sponge but I believe the click the softer tensors make is just coming from the topsheet flicking back into shape. CJ8000 2-wing looper is a dead sponge even when new and shrinks a lot with age. I have a old sheet and it's rolled up inversely all by itself, it never made any sound and it wasn't much of a rubber anyway. 

Hurricanes click with heavy handed doses of speed glue. A hard sponge that's been put under pressure from expansion versus the top sheet will always have more rebound (so more spin and speed) than a soft sponge that's under no pressure, much more. Go back to balloons for a moment. If you jump on a giant balloon with say 0 psi in it nothing will happen, but it you fill it with 20 psi and jump on it the rebound might be impressive enough to make you knee yourself in the face and knock your front teeth out. This is the same deal with speed glue, think of a sponge as an amount of air, which is basically what it is. Stretching it allows the top sheet to become loaded under pressure and is pretty much just a trampoline 2.2mm above the blade with air under it.

Also because they are measuring top sheets for stretch now the amount of pressure you can load up on a sponge is more limited than it used to be. So I think you will be able to get more extra power from a rubber that has a stiffer top sheet, ie. you wouldn't be able to tune an ESN tensor much at all before the top sheet stretched huge amounts, which is probably why they go off the rails when you try and even then because the sheet isn't resisting the sponge the sponge wont have loaded up the sheet as much, still when it comes to playing without bending the rules they are probably the best performing rubbers these days because of the better elasticity combined with the porous sponge. 

It all adds up to Chinese rubbers and Tenergy (which no matter what anybody says seems to be especially made for bending(cheating) with the current rules with a super absorbent sponge + firm very grippy top sheet)  I think you will find that most of the real fanatical Tenergy freaks are either boosting them, still using VOC glues or just flat out imagining most of the performance. If you could get rid of tuning all together then you would see the softer sheets being more popular with pros, until then, harder is better and your stiff Chinese tackies and Tenergy will still be the best rubbers for playing/tuning/cheating :D. Also I will add none of this may be actual fact but it's how I rationalise what's going on in the world and it makes sense to me :)


Edited by bluebucket - 03/04/2011 at 12:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 12:46am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Please enlighten me regarding the following:
 
  1. T or F: built-in speed glue effect = tensor?
  2. What causes a rubber with built-in speed glue effect to *click*, aka cork, when looping? Why don't all soft rubbers click?
  3. CJ8000 2-wing looper from Palio is advertised to have the built-in speed glue effect and produce a loud metallic sound on contact. My experience is that it doesn't. Can the blade and/or an improper glue job cause it not to click?
  4. HK1997 Biotech also from Palio domes but also does not click. Does this mean it is a tensor rubber but without the built-in speed glue effect (related to first question)?
  5. Do the DHS Hurricane and TG rubbers click. No tuning? After tuning?
  6. Can medium to hard Chinese rubbers be made to click with tuning or even speed gluing?
  7. If the Chinese players are tuning their rubbers, hence softening them, then they're not really playing with "hard" rubbers now are they? Why not just use softer rubbers with tacky topsheets?
  8. With all the discussion about how much more demanding it is to play with hard, tacky Chinese rubbers, and admiration for those who manage to play successfully with it, I wonder how many are actually still playing with those rubbers, un-speedglued, untuned? Even the Chinese pros don't play with them, so does it make sense for anyone else to stick with them?

Thanks.



Rubbers click loudest if the topsheet is stretched tight like a drum, and the sponge is soft and airy (or gassy, lol).  So the more elastic the topsheet and the softer the sponge, the louder the click sound will be if it's stretched tightly when glued on the blade.  Essentially your setup will become a percussion instrument.  LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 12:57am
Thanks for the response, guys.

Sorry your CJ8000 didn't work out for you, bluebucket. Unless Palio's improved the quality of the rubber since you purchased it, I guess my sheet will meet the same end. Although I think it's actually a pretty good rubber. There's not much bounce just bouncing the ball on it, but when actually hitting and looping with it, it feels quite good. Lots of spin and good control on all shots, except when counterlooping---you either have to swing fast or slow to keep the ball on the table, or really close the racket face to compensate for the generous throw; any swing speed between fast and slow just sends the ball long. Strange. I think a 2.0 version would be a lot better.

I also forgot to mention in the OP. Both the Palio rubbers are emitting an ammonia like odor. Is it from some tuning agent? Could it be harmful? I could really smell it after storing the rubbers in a drawer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 12:58am

Click is good, plyack is bad. Fact is that Chinese rubbers plyack more often than euro or jap rubbers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote razortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 1:50am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Please enlighten me regarding the following:
 
  1. T or F: built-in speed glue effect = tensor?
  2. What causes a rubber with built-in speed glue effect to *click*, aka cork, when looping? Why don't all soft rubbers click?
  3. CJ8000 2-wing looper from Palio is advertised to have the built-in speed glue effect and produce a loud metallic sound on contact. My experience is that it doesn't. Can the blade and/or an improper glue job cause it not to click?
  4. HK1997 Biotech also from Palio domes but also does not click. Does this mean it is a tensor rubber but without the built-in speed glue effect (related to first question)?
  5. Do the DHS Hurricane and TG rubbers click. No tuning? After tuning?
  6. Can medium to hard Chinese rubbers be made to click with tuning or even speed gluing?
  7. If the Chinese players are tuning their rubbers, hence softening them, then they're not really playing with "hard" rubbers now are they? Why not just use softer rubbers with tacky topsheets?
  8. With all the discussion about how much more demanding it is to play with hard, tacky Chinese rubbers, and admiration for those who manage to play successfully with it, I wonder how many are actually still playing with those rubbers, un-speedglued, untuned? Even the Chinese pros don't play with them, so does it make sense for anyone else to stick with them?

Thanks.



Rubbers click loudest if the topsheet is stretched tight like a drum, and the sponge is soft and airy (or gassy, lol).  So the more elastic the topsheet and the softer the sponge, the louder the click sound will be if it's stretched tightly when glued on the blade.  Essentially your setup will become a percussion instrument.  LOL





Wow, very nice explanation! Good job! Clap


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The noise you hear when a ball is struck by a glued up rubber is infact two noises in quick succession which gives the familiar 'tock' sound. The Voc (volatile organic compounds) in the glue diffuse into the cells of sponge when vulcanising glue is applied to a rubber. The cell walls expand under pressure becoming thinner and making the sponge softer yet more tensile.

When a ball hits the rubber with moderate to high velocity, the already under pressure gasses contained within the cells directly where the ball strikes, become under so much pressure that they momentarily liquify, causing an implosion (the first noise) as the ball sinks into the sponge further than it would without glue. After the ball either 'bottoms out' or reaches the point where the elasticity of the sponge will allow no more distortion, the ball starts to leave the sponge causing instant negative pressure in the sponge cells which at this point still contain liquified gasses. The pressure is no longer high enough to contain the Voc's in liquid form and they explode back into gas (the second noise) and in doing so, give the ball the extra catapult effect that we associate with speedglue.

I'm not so sure why the modern speedglue effect rubbers make the same noise, but i would guess the gas trapped within the sponge cells mimicks the VOC effect.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stoic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 8:01am
Interesting answer APW which makes a lot of sense. The harder the ball is hit, the more the gases liquify, the louder the click sound.
 
I will be listening out for the 2 sounds, never noticed that before!
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As a chemical engineering student, I liked that APW.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 11:45am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

The noise you hear when a ball is struck by a glued up rubber is infact two noises in quick succession which gives the familiar 'tock' sound. The Voc (volatile organic compounds) in the glue diffuse into the cells of sponge when vulcanising glue is applied to a rubber. The cell walls expand under pressure becoming thinner and making the sponge softer yet more tensile.

When a ball hits the rubber with moderate to high velocity, the already under pressure gasses contained within the cells directly where the ball strikes, become under so much pressure that they momentarily liquify, causing an implosion (the first noise) as the ball sinks into the sponge further than it would without glue. After the ball either 'bottoms out' or reaches the point where the elasticity of the sponge will allow no more distortion, the ball starts to leave the sponge causing instant negative pressure in the sponge cells which at this point still contain liquified gasses. The pressure is no longer high enough to contain the Voc's in liquid form and they explode back into gas (the second noise) and in doing so, give the ball the extra catapult effect that we associate with speedglue.

I'm not so sure why the modern speedglue effect rubbers make the same noise, but i would guess the gas trapped within the sponge cells mimicks the VOC effect.
 


APW46,

If the VOC can diffuse into the sponge cells, then it can also leave the cells, which is what has happened when the speed glue effect wears off, right?

So what keeps the VOC trapped inside the cells for the time being, especially when it's under pressure from ball contact?

Does the sponge need to have a closed-cell structure for speed glue to work?

Wow, never in my wildest imagination would I have guessed phase changes are taking place in the sponge. There should be a science TV show about this topic.

Thanks.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:


So what keeps the VOC trapped inside the cells for the time being, especially when it's under pressure from ball contact?
I am skeptical too but I doubt any gas can escape fast enough.

Quote
Does the sponge need to have a closed-cell structure for speed glue to work?
Good question and if so then how does the VOC get into the closed cells?

Quote
Wow, never in my wildest imagination would I have guessed phase changes are taking place in the sponge. There should be a science TV show about this topic.
I never would have guessed either and don't believe it.  Oxygen and Nitrogen must be cooled also to get it to liquefy.   Water and oil cavitate when there is a vacuum and the fluid essentially boils at a low pressure and when pressure increases the bubbles collapse.  This is the opposite process mentioned in the link.  Cavitation also destroys propellers and pumps.  I wonders would it would do to much more fragile sponge.  I would want to see a link to data that shows what gas is being compressed and how it is turned into a liquid.    A refrigeration cycle has freon or ammonia being compressed as a gas but then it must be cooled to remove the heat before the gas turns into a liquid.  HOW IS THE HEAT REMOVED FROM THE PADDLE ?   Where is the energy sink? A refrigerator has a heat exchanger. 

I am very skeptical. Obviously something is happening to make the click but I seriously doubt the cavitation explanation is it.



Edited by pnachtwey - 03/04/2011 at 6:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

The noise you hear when a ball is struck by a glued up rubber is infact two noises in quick succession which gives the familiar 'tock' sound. The Voc (volatile organic compounds) in the glue diffuse into the cells of sponge when vulcanising glue is applied to a rubber. The cell walls expand under pressure becoming thinner and making the sponge softer yet more tensile.

When a ball hits the rubber with moderate to high velocity, the already under pressure gasses contained within the cells directly where the ball strikes, become under so much pressure that they momentarily liquify, causing an implosion (the first noise) as the ball sinks into the sponge further than it would without glue. After the ball either 'bottoms out' or reaches the point where the elasticity of the sponge will allow no more distortion, the ball starts to leave the sponge causing instant negative pressure in the sponge cells which at this point still contain liquified gasses. The pressure is no longer high enough to contain the Voc's in liquid form and they explode back into gas (the second noise) and in doing so, give the ball the extra catapult effect that we associate with speedglue.

I'm not so sure why the modern speedglue effect rubbers make the same noise, but i would guess the gas trapped within the sponge cells mimicks the VOC effect.
 


APW46,

If the VOC can diffuse into the sponge cells, then it can also leave the cells, which is what has happened when the speed glue effect wears off, right?

So what keeps the VOC trapped inside the cells for the time being, especially when it's under pressure from ball contact?


 Its being fed by the active gasses from the glue, its escaping all the time, thats why you can smell it. 
 A bit like a bouncy castle kids inflatable is fed by an air compressor, when the compressor is switched off, the bouncy castle goes down, when the VOC's are spent, the sponge cells deflate and the glue effect wears off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 6:22pm
Say, could the VOC smell like ammonia, because that's how my rubbers smell at the moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 6:23pm
Actually, a combination of ammonia and very heavily fragranced soap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 6:26pm
VOC gas smells like glue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 6:43pm
Many Chinese rubbers after 2008 claim to have built-in glue effect -- They don't. They just have more lively sponges than before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Many Chinese rubbers after 2008 claim to have built-in glue effect -- They don't. They just have more lively sponges than before.
  Not just Chinese. I have had all this conversation before, the modern 'Glue effect' rubbers are not the same as real sp/glue, they are just faster, SP/glue was different, it was fast exponentially as the contact speed increased, giving high control at low impact, but high pace (and spin) at high impact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

VOC gas smells like glue.
 
Crap. Then that's what it is, kinda sour, like Elmer's glue.
 
Heads up, folks: Palio CJ8000 2-wing-loop and HK1997 biotech (grippy/non-tacky) have VOCs.
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Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

VOC gas smells like glue.
 
Crap. Then that's what it is, kinda sour, like Elmer's glue.
 
Heads up, folks: Palio CJ8000 2-wing-loop and HK1997 biotech (grippy/non-tacky) have VOCs.
 I presume you are so young that you never actually used sp/glue? You can state that my obsevations are' crap' but how would you know?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRobot99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

VOC gas smells like glue.
 
Crap. Then that's what it is, kinda sour, like Elmer's glue.
 
Heads up, folks: Palio CJ8000 2-wing-loop and HK1997 biotech (grippy/non-tacky) have VOCs.
 I presume you are so young that you never actually used sp/glue? You can state that my obsevations are' crap' but how would you know?


I don't think he was calling what you said "crap." I think it was just an exclamation. I could be wrong though...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 10:27pm

APW46,

No offense meant. Please do read my posts carefully and in context of our previous correspondence.
 
The premise of our previous discussion is I do not know whether my rubbers have VOCs but I do know they smell.
 
I mentioned an ammonia-like smell and deferred to your experience and expertise. You answered my question, thank you, saying that VOCs smell just like glue.
 
Well Elmer's glue, to me, smells sour; and ammonia, to me, also smells sour. So, "CRAP!" my rubbers are likely to have harmful VOCs.
 
I even gave a heads up to others that those 2 particular Palio rubbers have VOCs.
 
How can you possibly misinterpret the intent of my comments?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mmerkel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2011 at 11:04pm
I don't think ammonia qualifies as a VOC in this instance. Almost all of the (legal) water based glues I tried and have seen have ammonia as a solvent. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2011 at 12:44am
The fact that you can smell ammonia means that it is volatile as in it will readlily evaporate into a gaseous form for your nose to detect.  When I use it to clean my greasy stove my whole house smells like ammonia for a while.  I haven't smelled any rubbers that smell like ammonia though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2011 at 12:45am
mmerkel, I don't know if it is really ammonium. It smells like ammonium to me, sharp and a bit sour. If it is indeed ammonium, then I guess I have nothing to worry about, but if it is actually VOCs as APW46 explained, I gonna have to leave the racket out in the open.

That or hold my breath every time I take it out of storage.



Edited by racquetsforsale - 03/05/2011 at 12:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2011 at 1:02am
Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

...

Rubbers click loudest if the topsheet is stretched tight like a drum, and the sponge is soft and airy (or gassy, lol).  So the more elastic the topsheet and the softer the sponge, the louder the click sound will be if it's stretched tightly when glued on the blade.  Essentially your setup will become a percussion instrument.  LOL



Wow, very nice explanation! Good job! Clap

 +1.
It's so hard to find the right analogy to explain with simple words ideas that are very complex. RR did it again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2011 at 1:05am
Also read this:
 
 
The cavitation part of the article is fascinating. Search for "H. Cavitation and Water Hammer Effects" on that page.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2011 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

 
How can you possibly misinterpret the intent of my comments?
 re-'crap' sorry cultural language differenceTongue
The Older I get, The better I was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2011 at 3:34pm
no harm done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2011 at 10:09pm
We are from many different countries, and very likely English is not our mother tongue, so there are chances that we either misintepret something or we do not understand some joke. It happens to me many times Big smile 
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