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Intermediate TT :: Ratings Posted |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Posted: 04/14/2011 at 1:04am |
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Good point about the ratings being a few years out of date. However, I can attest to the fact that these players play no less than
they did a few years back. And if anything, John is enjoying more than
enough to maintain level (3 days a week of play).
As always Ratings Central is reporting lower than USATT ratings. That's all I can figure, as Sonu Bhatia (one of Maine's best active players at US1962 in 2009) is only rated about 1500 ratings central. Same for Albert Landry a US1700+ player in 2009 who is only RC1439 and TJ Braley is got an initial USATT 1400+ rating but is only rated in the high 800's according to Ratings Central. But I won't turn this into yet another "which is system is more accurate" debate, because discrepancies exist between the two systems, and perhaps having both ratings posted helps paint a better picture (at least in terms of matches played, history, etc). And Jim, I know you are scratching your head about John, but keep in mind that he's beaten both Cory Johnson in 2008 and Harry Vu (when he was active)several times. Those were both legit US1600+ players at the time. He does well against folks with good mechanics up to about 1700 or so. If for no other reason that loopers up to the 1500 level simply don't have the footwork or consistency to survive the blocks and counters that he dishes out.
You're mostly on the mark. The people who can beat him in friendly matches usually play 1. , 2. and/or 5. He has trouble against some LP styles (especially classic penhold w/ the twist of FH LP) - but again, what sub 1800 player doesn't have trouble against that style ;D John regularly beats choppers/control players who mix chops/lobs/loops.
Last time I checked, my USATT rating had finally oustripped my RC rating. BONUS Video posted in OP See my sig. |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Yep, that's me, Zhang Jike in disguise! He didn't have a chance... That kid grew up a little since then and I watched him play recently - he does a bit better now in tourneys but still surprises me with his low USATT rating (other kids if his age who train as much as he does, were able to to do much better at the tournaments). I think his speed gets the better of him - he wants to kill every ball and makes so many unforced errors. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Wow, looping like Ma Long and only go head to head against you. Guess you are better then I thought Don't worry, I get your point and I agree with it, some players have "warm up" strokes that makes them look really good, but little understanding or skill when it comes to actuall match situations. |
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The holy grail
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mhnh007
Platinum Member Joined: 11/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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I actually thick that the pace of the game is noticeably slower than the one play by the players in the OP. In the OP there are a lot of quick pushes, and don't forget they are playing with pips, so that mean lower level loopers may be in some shock when they play these 2 guys in OP. |
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Jonan
Premier Member Joined: 02/18/2009 Location: Elsweyr Status: Offline Points: 2933 |
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Yeah, I faced a tiny beast of a player in a 1050 rated kid who was like 8 years old it seemed. I won, though honestly only due to winning a couple games by serving with long pips and getting a lot of misses on the returns. He was good, was getting good coaching, was good at drills, just didn't have the experience though he could loop with better form and more balls than many 1600 players. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't win if we faced again, after the match his dad took him to a table and ran drills on reading spin on low spins serves... |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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You can have very "coached" great-looking strokes, fluid motions, great ripping kill-loops and then suck at tournaments. There was this kid in a Boston club who went head-to-head with me during practice. Man, he was looping and power-driving like Ma Long, his fast loops were really good when we did some warming up and I put the ball consistently to his forehand and backhand (my rating at the time was about 1900, so his "technical" rating seemed really good to me). Then we started playing the actual match, and he consistently got no more than 4-5 points in every one of three sets. Turned out the kid just didn't know what to do except for simple push if the opponent didn't give him nice and easy balls comfortable for looping/killing. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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I don't think it's fair to use a high light video to compare players against a video that shows every single mistake made. Have the guys in the original video play 5-6 matches and show the high lights from that and I bet a lot of us would rate them as a lot better.
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The holy grail
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Hookshot
Gold Member Joined: 07/24/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Thats right, they do not look like someone with alot of coaching but,,, they are 10 times more consistant. And, I consider them "coachable". The original two have so many bad habits, I would not even attempt to coach them.
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addoydude
Silver Member Joined: 01/29/2008 Status: Offline Points: 848 |
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to be honest even hookshot's link above doesn't look like coached players. Many juniors with coaching have more polished looking strokes even at 1000 level. Of course these juniors usually have trouble in adjusting to spin variation even though they have good form. Which just goes to show good form is not everything and basement style can take you far.
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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
H3 NEO / 388-D1 |
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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I think region has a lot to do with things. For instance, if these guys played in california, I'd be laughing if you told me it was 1600 for either guy. I can understand 1600 at most for somewhere like maine, though. Whoever put them 1700-1900 however, that's ridiculous no matter how low the rating standard is where you are. You don't see anyone above 1500-1600 get into a pushing rally where the ball goes to the same spot over and over no matter what equipment they are using. I saw 10-12 shots in a row all pushes go to the same spot on the table, and when a person tried to attack it was almost always a miss. I can see how the guy without the hat can be troublesome. But again, anything over 1600 is too much. And he falls right about there. The understanding of point formulation at anything above 1600 should be higher than what those guys are doing, and the most supportive part to that is that they have played each other many many times.
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addoydude
Silver Member Joined: 01/29/2008 Status: Offline Points: 848 |
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Icontek's rating is higher on ratingscentral. |
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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
H3 NEO / 388-D1 |
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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I would tend to agree w/ Hookshot on that. The guy in that video has pretty good defense. I've come to the conclusion from watching videos like these that my loops are way above what my level probably is (have yet to play in a tournament) and that I have to be more disciplined so that I don't try to force a shot when it's not there and stay focused so I don't make silly mistakes in the short game.
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davidz
Super Member Joined: 10/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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In order to beat John, I may try some of these
1. Agressive looping with higher success ratio for heavy backspin balls. Strong slow looping for backspin balls may also help.
2. Quick underspin or backspin long service following next powerful hit.
3. To be a good chopper and controller, and can also keep the ball retured low and fast.
4. Blade with long pip in one side and inverted rubber in the other side.
5. It is better to have quick playing pace because he stands closed to table.
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PG7 (Skyline 2, LKT XP)
YEO (Skyline 2, Skyline 3) |
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Hookshot
Gold Member Joined: 07/24/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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This vid shows what I think of as 1600 to 1700 players. I do not see how the two could possibly beat these players or even come close.
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chu_bun
Silver Member Joined: 02/22/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 821 |
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Maybe rating is relative to a region. These guys appear to be more consistent that 1300-1400 level players I play with. I'm on par with 1500-1600 players in my region, but I'm not so sure I can beat these two in a tournament.
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Clipper Wood, Sanwei Gears FH, Sanwei T88-I BH.
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Jonan
Premier Member Joined: 02/18/2009 Location: Elsweyr Status: Offline Points: 2933 |
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I noticed when comparing rating central ratings of players at my recent tournament vs their USATT ratings that across the board the ratings were 200 and up to even 400 points lower on rating central. Ratings that are 3 years old are pretty unreliable...younger players especially can advance 400 points in a single year or older players who stopped drilling can lose 100 points in a year easily. |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Here is the thing - I watched the video and then tried to compare these guys to the people who play tournaments in Quincy and see who plays at approximately same level. And I frankly thought that people who have 1300-1400 rating would have no problem at all with both of these players. I was apparently wrong.
However - I should say two things a) those ratings are very old b) those ratings are from Maine-only tournaments while playing vs the same crowd. It would be very different for these guys when they come to another place. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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davidz
Super Member Joined: 10/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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This is a nice test how to rate player based on video. I can feel that John's rating is higher, because his playing is more stable, and tough to play with. But I did not give him enough point.
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PG7 (Skyline 2, LKT XP)
YEO (Skyline 2, Skyline 3) |
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addoydude
Silver Member Joined: 01/29/2008 Status: Offline Points: 848 |
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yeah.. People watching me play always overrate me. :)
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Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon
H3 NEO / 388-D1 |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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Thanx for the post and follow-up. I would have guessed the hatless guy (Mr. BackHand) was higher rated.
It goes to show watching people play, drill, warm-up whatever can give you very different impressions compared to when you play them.
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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The most interesting thing here is that almost every one who guessed gave them a lower ranking then what they actually have.
Now, is this because so few have seen their own game on video and thinks they look so much better then these guys? Or, is it because this is the internet and it's so easy to put people down? Sure, awkwards styles and a coach who wanted to teach them proper strokes would end up baldwith in an hour, but they where way more consistent then a lot of other ~1400-1600 players I've seen on vids. I failed to see the strong fh, but the bh seemed to be a real weapon. Hardly a loop, but a good bh hit from one of the guys. |
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The holy grail
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hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
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No points for getting their ratingscentral numbers right? ;) I was lazy and didn't look up their usatt ratings before posting my guess.
Interesting that their ratingscentral rating is noticeably lower. Those guys haven't played in a usatt event since may of 2008.
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tomkat22
Super Member Joined: 04/03/2006 Status: Offline Points: 182 |
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Thanks but I play with junk rubber on both sides,anti on the BH and medium pips on the FH. Gotta keep em on their toes. |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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And without opponents like these I would get spanked by unorthodox styles at tournament time...
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Tomkat I have an old sheet of fake provincial h3. How does that sound?
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bluebucket
Platinum Member Joined: 02/20/2011 Location: 16 Status: Offline Points: 2882 |
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Guys from around the same level and play these kind of guys at tournaments should have been able to get that pretty close and it seems they did. It's normal for player rated less than them to underrate guys above them in some crazy show of self confidence :). Guys above the players in the video probably under rate them also but to a lesser amount. Players just like this without any formal training or having grown up playing good players become unorthodox naturally, these guys make up the bulk of every club and without them we wouldn't have the numbers and wouldn't have clubs so remember to celebrate the average player! :)
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tomkat22
Super Member Joined: 04/03/2006 Status: Offline Points: 182 |
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WooHoo,what do I win! I'm about 1600 myself and both players were making some shots that would "give me some problems",so I figured both were at the 1500-1600 level.
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iCanLoopHard
Super Member Joined: 01/17/2011 Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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nice this is fun i wasnt off by too much
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Rating and match history posted on Page 1.
Thanks all for playing, there were some interesting observations in the thread. Folks who pointed out that Scott's FH was effective were partially right (on table% needs to be higher) Folks who pointed out that John had a strong BH were correct (push or counter, he will keep it in play). I'll see if I can get a match of John vs. a more traditional opponent soon. |
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Takadigi
Super Member Joined: 02/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 378 |
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I could very well be wrong as it is really difficult to accurately judge someone's level from a video particularly for those do not play conventional strokes. It will be interesting to wait and get confirmation of their real ratings. |
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