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Spinny & deceptive short pip

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    Posted: 07/03/2012 at 12:43am
Does such pip exist? Spinny enough to do some light loops/flips while deceptive when blocking and light touch returns?

802-40 seems to have close to zero deception. I believe this will be the case also for Raystorm, Tango Ultra and other similar rubbers.

802-1 doesn't seem to allow for any looping - the ball just slips off.

I'm looking at Flarestorm II and Spectol or Spectol 21 right now. Are any of these worth trying out?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yhbae Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 12:47am
And also Stiga Clippa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 12:50am
stiga radical. sometimes it behaves like a med pip. a bit harder to adjust to at first though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yhbae Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 12:51am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

stiga radical. sometimes it behaves like a med pip. a bit harder to adjust to at first though

So is it spinny enough to do some decent serves/light loops/flips?

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 12:56am
yes, radical is spinny but when you go to a counterhitting  part of the game ome times the ball is unpredictable in its spin or no spin effect and also soem of the balls it hit tends to suddenly slow down affecting your opponents pace
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yhbae Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 1:01am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

yes, radical is spinny but when you go to a counterhitting  part of the game ome times the ball is unpredictable in its spin or no spin effect and also soem of the balls it hit tends to suddenly slow down affecting your opponents pace

Are those effects happening because of the way you hit the ball, or is it more random?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 1:25am
yhbae, I think you understand perfectly.   If the pips can generate spin predictably like 802-40 and others you mentioned then the pips will not be deceptive.  I play with 802 1.5mm too and I don't think they are deceptive at all.  I have two hard bats, one with Peacekeeper and the other with Dr Evil.   This can be slightly deceptive and they do get some spin reversal.   Neither Peacekeeper or Dr Evil are very spinny.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 2:02am
Originally posted by yhbae yhbae wrote:

Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

yes, radical is spinny but when you go to a counterhitting  part of the game ome times the ball is unpredictable in its spin or no spin effect and also soem of the balls it hit tends to suddenly slow down affecting your opponents pace

Are those effects happening because of the way you hit the ball, or is it more random?


the radical itself has this unpredictability even if you use the same stroke
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stefashka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 2:16am
Short pips are primary designed for attacking and blocking (and chopping, but it's an advanced function), not for deceiving. With SP, most of deception comes from the player who knows how to handle the pips. Yeah, flatter trajectory and ability to hit through spin gives an edge, but still - you should be able to use them, i.e. move fast to be on the ball in time and use right strokes.

I think that less spinny pips can help a player to be more deceptive because it's easier to manipulate spin, change pace and direction using them, so Spectol and 802 should be the primary candidates for you. From my experience, I would add TSP Tyranno and Andro Hexer Pips (normal and Plus), but I would recommend to use thinner sponges for most cases... You can also look at the medium pips as they keep the ability of fast attacking, but provide more "sinking" balls and even less susceptible to incoming spin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 2:21am
Originally posted by stefashka stefashka wrote:

Short pips are primary designed for attacking and blocking (and chopping, but it's an advanced function), not for deceiving. With SP, most of deception comes from the player who knows how to handle the pips. Yeah, flatter trajectory and ability to hit through spin gives an edge, but still - you should be able to use them, i.e. move fast to be on the ball in time and use right strokes.

I think that less spinny pips can help a player to be more deceptive because it's easier to manipulate spin, change pace and direction using them, so Spectol and 802 should be the primary candidates for you. From my experience, I would add TSP Tyranno and Andro Hexer Pips (normal and Plus), but I would recommend to use thinner sponges for most cases... You can also look at the medium pips as they keep the ability of fast attacking, but provide more "sinking" balls and even less susceptible to incoming spin. 

blowfish+  its very disturbing is like a long pip in a short pip skin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stefashka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 2:22am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

the radical itself has this unpredictability even if you use the same stroke

Then ITTF would not allow it, yogi Wink

All pips are predictable, but you have to be a pips player to predict them right - that's the secret Big smile
SP are the easiest to understand, LP are the most complex, but still they are pretty predictable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FiskenDK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 3:46am
try nittaku morristo its very deceptive for short pips.
there is night and day between short pips.
doing the exact same stroke on return of light topspin shot, the return result for opponent range from light backspin (morristo), no spin (extend po), light top spin (hexer po and spectol 21)
morristo and xtend have short wide hard pips.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 4:20am
stef, thats the thing with the radical. its unpredictable even to the one using it. i have seen people who are about 2300 use it in their forehand and its really amazing though the user would also get caught in its unpredictability
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stefashka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 5:25am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

stef, thats the thing with the radical. its unpredictable even to the one using it. i have seen people who are about 2300 use it in their forehand and its really amazing though the user would also get caught in its unpredictability

I probably know what you mean, but I should check it by myself Smile  The other pips with a similar description is Joola Tango Ultra. Both seems to vanish from stocks being replaced by their successors (Stiga Royal and Joola Express Ultra). Hopefully I will be able to try them next month - I want to spend this month polishing my skills with the pips I already have. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 10:21am
Originally posted by yhbae yhbae wrote:

Does such pip exist? Spinny enough to do some light loops/flips while deceptive when blocking and light touch returns?

802-40 seems to have close to zero deception. I believe this will be the case also for Raystorm, Tango Ultra and other similar rubbers.

802-1 doesn't seem to allow for any looping - the ball just slips off.

I'm looking at Flarestorm II and Spectol or Spectol 21 right now. Are any of these worth trying out?



In my opinion it cannot exist.  As with most things, it is a tradeoff, and the available rubbers lie on a spectrum -- things like Raystorm are more like inverted, less deceptive, easier to learn (but are still SP with advantages and disadvantages).  They can be very spinny.  You can learn to be effective pretty quickly with these.  Things like Spectol and Challenger are very deceptive, much harder to learn, and much less spinny in general.  They punish any deviation from perfect short pips technique.  Challenger in particular really seems best suited for penholders.  However, the one and only rubber that I have tried (and I tried many) that does kind of have some properties of both of these extremes is Stiga Radical.  It is very soft which allows generation of spin but the aspect ratio of the pips (short but very thin and flexible) makes them kind of strange, and definitely hard to play against.  You will force lots of errors, will probably make many unexplainable errors yourself for a long time.  That is, you will hit the ball square in what should be the sweet spot and with what should be the correct racket angle, and the ball just squibs off in some strange direction.  It doesn't happen very much but it is still disconcerting and  I never could master them.  I have not experienced that with anything else.  One guy here I know has used them for years and he is my worst nightmare for an opponent.


Edited by Baal - 07/03/2012 at 10:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 10:22am
Flarestorm II is very very fast, which makes it a bit tricky to learn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote decoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 10:30am


[/QUOTE]

  That is, you will hit the ball square in what should be the sweet spot and with what should be the correct racket angle, and the ball just squibs off in some strange direction.  It doesn't happen very much but it is still disconcerting and  I never could master them.  I have not experienced that with anything else.  One guy here I know has used them for years and he is my worst nightmare for an opponent.
[/QUOTE]

that can be done with some of the inverted rubbers as well. and i dont mean anti


Edited by decoi - 07/03/2012 at 10:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2012 at 10:34am
Originally posted by decoi decoi wrote:



that can be done with some of the inverted rubbers as well. and i dont mean anti


Maybe, I have never actually seen anything else like this.  With Radical it is really strange how it can occasionally misfire by so  much for no obvious reason.  Your opponent, though, will have no idea what you are doing when you make your shots, and you will gain more than you lose -- but have to accept that sometimes you will miss badly and won't know why.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 8:34am
I agree very much that the deception originates with the skill of the user.

however, if you are looking for a rubber, that allows you to play sp counterhit but also allows some spin reversal shots and fantastic ability to change pace - from soft block to bh smash a la Fukuhara then Armstrong Attack 8 is the best imo. It is very fast and the pimples are trapezoid + cylinder and get their med pips qualities from the strong yet flexible rubber. the pimples wont break off unlike radical so a sheet of Attack 8 should last a couple of seasons
There are 2 kinds 'attack 8 M' and 'attack 8 L'(wider pips) and 2 types of sponge - pink 43 degree for more aggresive play and a yellow softer sponge which might be used for chopping with a slower blade.

The bad news is that this is an advanced rubber and you really need the advanced backhand skills in the fukuhara or Deng Yaping sort of style to make the most of it
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote decoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 9:14am
this only happened to me when i had a fresh H3 prov ( old version) and when i blocked incoming top spin the ball rebounded with a massive wobble  but it didt really happen after that bight as it got more and more broken in
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 9:23am
I have to think hard to remember a  pip spinnier than Hexer ....yes maybe Spinpips, but the player was  a pro
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 1:01pm
[Off-topic]
Kolev, I see that u are from Belgium. In what division do u play? Also can u explain their rating system? It looks complicated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote capablanca8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 1:12pm
Does anyone know how these 2 pips out rubbers play?

--TSP Super Spinpips (regular or 21 sponge)
--Donic Baxster F1A

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 2:29pm
Everything is a tradeoff and some things are mutually exclusive.  You can't simultaneously have more spin and less spin.  Raystorm is by far the spinniest SP that I have tried (I've tried a lot but not everything), but there are many others that are faster and almost as spinny.  Flarestorm II comes to mind.   I can say that Baxter F1A is so soft and slow as to be almost useless, unless, perhaps, you are a chopper who uses very thin sponge.  I am not one of those, but could imagine it would work that way.  I haven't tried Super Spinpips.  I am told that various forms of Spectol are the most popular among women Chinese province level shakehand SP players, for whatever that is worth.  Armstrong SP are definitely not for beginners, and I would say the same thing for Butterfly Challenger, but if you can use them, you will drive people crazy.  You kind of need to experiment a little and find out what makes you most effective.  It seems to me that the differences between different SP rubbers are large compared to different inverted.  I think there are more parameters that can be changed to affect performance, especially pip shape, orientation, length, hardness, and adhesiveness, as well as sponge  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 3:48pm
You can get deception and spin at the same time by using a really hard sponged H3. The blocks often give back backspin. Very different from the softer H3.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 4:36pm
Baal is starting to sound like me. Gee, how boringly logical.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Everything is a tradeoff and some things are mutually exclusive.  You can't simultaneously have more spin and less spin

 Totally inclusively correct. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Everything is a tradeoff and some things are mutually exclusive.  You can't simultaneously have more spin and less spin.  Raystorm is by far the spinniest SP that I have tried (I've tried a lot but not everything), but there are many others that are faster and almost as spinny.  Flarestorm II comes to mind.   I can say that Baxter F1A is so soft and slow as to be almost useless, unless, perhaps, you are a chopper who uses very thin sponge.  I am not one of those, but could imagine it would work that way.  I haven't tried Super Spinpips.  I am told that various forms of Spectol are the most popular among women Chinese province level shakehand SP players, for whatever that is worth.  Armstrong SP are definitely not for beginners, and I would say the same thing for Butterfly Challenger, but if you can use them, you will drive people crazy.  You kind of need to experiment a little and find out what makes you most effective.  It seems to me that the differences between different SP rubbers are large compared to different inverted.  I think there are more parameters that can be changed to affect performance, especially pip shape, orientation, length, hardness, and adhesiveness, as well as sponge  


who has tried patisuma III OR II
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swampthing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2012 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by decoi decoi wrote:



that can be done with some of the inverted rubbers as well. and i dont mean anti 

I experienced some unexplained variation when I was experimenting with the cheapest range of inverted rubbers. Smile  *Cough*  quality control 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote capablanca8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2012 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I can say that Baxter F1A is so soft and slow as to be almost useless, unless, perhaps, you are a chopper who uses very thin sponge.  I am not one of those, but could imagine it would work that way.


Most seem to say that the F1A version is very fast.  Could it be that you are referring to a different Baxster?  I believe there are different sponges depending on the version.  At any rate, I'm wondering if you can spin with them or if this is a more classic pip with little spin. 

Thanks.
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