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seguso View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Trick question about sponge hardness and flex
    Posted: 04/27/2021 at 8:45am
Hi guys, I have what I think is a trick question, I'm curious how you are going to answer it Smile

You try a very hard rubber (say Hurricane 3 41 deg 2.2mm) on a rather stiff blade and you feel the ball doesn't sink completely in the sponge even at max power. You get poor spin , poor speed, no dwell time. When you loop in a bad position and can only use 70% of your power, the loop doesn't even make it to the net.

You realize you don't have enough power to completely compress such a hard rubber. You are under-exploiting the rubber, you are not using it to its full potential.

Then you switch to a more flexible blade (with the same rubber) and you see the dwell time has increased, and these problems are reduced. You get more spin and speed. Your overall game improves.

Now I have a question: is this because you are exploiting the rubber's potential better than before?
That is: is it because the ball is sinking in the sponge more than before? Or is it sinking in the sponge just like before? Or maybe even less than before?

I'm curious to see if your answer will be like mine. Smile


Edited by seguso - 04/27/2021 at 8:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 9:14am
I like your style but I think you are wasting all your potential.

my advice.
change rubbers to 729 focus iii snipe.
change blade to palio energy 03.
play with this setup at least one year.
then come back here and tell me if I was right or not.

as long as you continue with hurricane iii and spin and all that nonsense your game will not improve.


Edited by astaroyd - 04/27/2021 at 9:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 9:42am
That is life changing advice man Smile Thank you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merlin el mago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 9:43am
Chinese likes flex blade & hard rubbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 10:03am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

With a flexier blade, the ball stays in contact with the rubber a bit longer so there is more time for the rubber to shine.


yes, but does this mean the ball is sinking in the rubber more than before?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zwill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 10:18am
Actually I don't get why would the ball sink into the sponge more on a flexier blade. It doesn't make too much sense to me.
If I use a stiff, hard blade the blade will flex away less hence the ball will sink more into the sponge. On a flexible blade the blade will bend absorbing some energy which otherwise would be absorbed by the sponge.

It's a different question which is better for actual play...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 10:23am
My guess:the ball have to sink into the rubber more since the flexi wood as a unit with the rubber will be more penetrable.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 10:34am
Originally posted by Zwill Zwill wrote:

Actually I don't get why would the ball sink into the sponge more on a flexier blade. It doesn't make too much sense to me.



Exactly! I agree with you. I wanted to see if someone else thought like meSmile

If you don't have enough power to compress that sponge more than 50%, why would a flexible blade help you compress it 60%?

We can even test this: take a pickaxe and make a hole in the ground. Now take a pickaxe with a flexible handle and with the same power. Why would it sink more than before in the ground? It will sink less than before.

So, even with the more flexible blade, you are still under-exploiting the rubber. You're still getting less than optimal spin and speed. You'd still be better off switching to a slightly softer rubber (until you can almost bottom out).


Edited by seguso - 04/27/2021 at 10:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 10:44am
playing with Chinese rubbers since my introduction to TT and after thousands of dollars into BLADES (collection purposes of course)

I agree that you need flex to have adequate contact and spin on your shots

Even the HARD FEEL of a YEO (5.7) and TB ZLC (5.5 thickness) works for hard tacky because of the BEND these thin blades provide —> I don’t ever look at blades past 6.0 with the type of rubbers I use. 

Softer blades from experience BEND more than a stiff blade so the REBOUND off the rubbers isn’t as HARSH (less dwell)

Hence why I find the new INNER CARBONS at 6.0 thickness NONLINEAR as they change in TRAJECTORY once you PASS the carbon layer 
I am a total Newb. Come at me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 11:13am
Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

Originally posted by Zwill Zwill wrote:

Actually I don't get why would the ball sink into the sponge more on a flexier blade. It doesn't make too much sense to me.



Exactly! I agree with you. I wanted to see if someone else thought like meSmile

If you don't have enough power to compress that sponge more than 50%, why would a flexible blade help you compress it 60%?

We can even test this: take a pickaxe and make a hole in the ground. Now take a pickaxe with a flexible handle and with the same power. Why would it sink more than before in the ground? It will sink less than before.

So, even with the more flexible blade, you are still under-exploiting the rubber. You're still getting less than optimal spin and speed. You'd still be better off switching to a slightly softer rubber (until you can almost bottom out).
not saying your theory is wrong, I had your thinking that hard rubber will work better on a hard and stiff blade but in practice a H3 on a carbonado 290 does not work as well as on a 145.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 11:40am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

but in practice a H3 on a carbonado 290 does not work as well as on a 145.


To be clear, I don't deny that. I'm only saying that, *IF* the rubber was underexploited with the 290 , then it is also underexploited with the 145. (That is, on the 145 you'd still be better off with an H3 which is one degree softer.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Zwill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 11:58am
I think we should separate blade hardness and stiffness. A primorac carbon is a rather stiff blade but due to soft hinoki outer ply it has a soft feeling. The most flexible blade I had was a Boll ZLF which was rather flexible but as I remember I wouldn't actually say it has a soft feeling.

Chinese pro players use a HL5 or Viscaria type of blade like 80% (shakehand). There are some Carbonados and Rosewoods or maybe even Clippers but not many use them anymore.
I use a Viscaria clone myself and it has a hard feeling, I wouldn't call it flexible or stiff it feels somewhere medium, but the ALC tensions it very well giving it some extra kick. I've tried much softer and flexier TB Spirits and much stiffer and harder actual Viscarias. The TB Spirits lack power even with tensor rubbers, the stiff and hard Viscarias have no feeling at all.
This is just my case, there are so many factors for a blade, weight, handle shape, balance, flex/stiffness, and I'm just talking about the same model of Viscaria or whatever else.

TLDR: Stiff and hard (and light, due to armswing speed) blade should be able to penetrate the sponge better. So in this regards some 10mm balsa blade would be the perfect thing for the job, however I doubt it would be a great experience.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by Zwill Zwill wrote:

Actually I don't get why would the ball sink into the sponge more on a flexier blade. It doesn't make too much sense to me.
If I use a stiff, hard blade the blade will flex away less hence the ball will sink more into the sponge. On a flexible blade the blade will bend absorbing some energy which otherwise would be absorbed by the sponge.

It's a different question which is better for actual play...


Ball ona flexy blade stay more time wrapped by the sponge but harder sponge deform the ball more than a softer one increasing energy transfer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Zwill Zwill wrote:

I think we should separate blade hardness and stiffness. A primorac carbon is a rather stiff blade but due to soft hinoki outer ply it has a soft feeling. The most flexible blade I had was a Boll ZLF which was rather flexible but as I remember I wouldn't actually say it has a soft feeling.

Chinese pro players use a HL5 or Viscaria type of blade like 80% (shakehand). There are some Carbonados and Rosewoods or maybe even Clippers but not many use them anymore.
I use a Viscaria clone myself and it has a hard feeling, I wouldn't call it flexible or stiff it feels somewhere medium, but the ALC tensions it very well giving it some extra kick. I've tried much softer and flexier TB Spirits and much stiffer and harder actual Viscarias. The TB Spirits lack power even with tensor rubbers, the stiff and hard Viscarias have no feeling at all.
This is just my case, there are so many factors for a blade, weight, handle shape, balance, flex/stiffness, and I'm just talking about the same model of Viscaria or whatever else.

TLDR: Stiff and hard (and light, due to armswing speed) blade should be able to penetrate the sponge better. So in this regards some 10mm balsa blade would be the perfect thing for the job, however I doubt it would be a great experience.


What clone? V14 PRO?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 1:13pm
   AN UNIQUE TECHNICS BY MIMA ITO.

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Again, you would be well adviced to hit the ball on the centre spot , rather than on the upper semisphere. It is the know-how by Mima Ito, to put a HUGE amount of acceleration onto the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 1:45pm
honestly.... you need to have masochistic tendencies to use a not tuned hurricane 3 on both sides.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 2:18pm
Too much blurb going on imo.

Let's keep it simple. The thing about flex plus hard sponge in the past was that it helped with spin, feeling and control. However, with the advent of plastic, and in particular, Abs balls, blades have become stiffer, and rubbers harder. This is because forward movement and sponge compression is more important than before, to get spin and control. If your technique is not adequate however, you can get away with flexy blade and only topsheet brush on hard rubber, which will give you the control that you experienced, giving the illusion of better sponge engagement, which is not the case.

In short, try medium stiff blade with heavily boosted H40 h3n and be happy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nv42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2021 at 5:47pm
The thing with most hard rubbers imo is you either need to hit hard enough to compress the sponge OR brush a lot to create spin only using the topsheet. 
In the 1st scenario, a slower and flexier blade definitely gives you some extra confidence to hit the ball a bit harder and hence making more use of the sponge. 
In the 2nd scenario, most flexy blades should give a bit more dwell and hence help you create more spin with a brushy stroke compared to a stiffer+faster blade. Slow and stiff blades don't do too bad on brushy strokes, though creating any power on such blades would be a task especially with a super hard rubber. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2021 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:


In short, try medium stiff blade with heavily boosted H40 h3n and be happy.



In fact I tried that yesterday. Unfortunately it doesn't work for me:

There's a huge difference between H3N 40 and H3N 39. They're totally different worlds.

- heavily boosted H3N 40 (two layers of seamoon): still too slow and too hard. The ball shoots too much upwards and not enough forward. When I don't have time to charge the full stroke and I need to use european fh, it's very slow.

- H3N 39, 1 layer: I shoot rockets without effort, even with european stroke. The rubber is so bouncy that it's faster than an mxp. It would work even unboosted, I'm sure. This time I can feel the blade is engaged, while with 40 the blade basically wasn't being used. Probably I'm bottoming out, but who cares: the throw is high and there's a lot of spin.




Edited by seguso - 04/30/2021 at 12:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2021 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

With a flexier blade, the ball stays in contact with the rubber a bit longer so there is more time for the rubber to shine.


yes, but does this mean the ball is sinking in the rubber more than before?

I assume you're just feeling the dwell from the blade and thinking the ball is sinking more
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2021 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

With a flexier blade, the ball stays in contact with the rubber a bit longer so there is more time for the rubber to shine.


yes, but does this mean the ball is sinking in the rubber more than before?

I assume you're just feeling the dwell from the blade and thinking the ball is sinking more


Yes, it's an illusion. You'd get the same result with a 1.0mm sponge. (if the theory is correct)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2021 at 1:59pm
The ball does not necessarily sink more in the identical rubber on a stiffer blade. It is possible that the ball will deform more instead. The OP's pickax example actually suggests that scenario.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2021 at 2:17pm
orange or blue sponge? Commercial or provincial? This also makes a huge difference
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2021 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The ball does not necessarily sink more in the identical rubber on a stiffer blade. It is possible that the ball will deform more instead. The OP's pickax example actually suggests that scenario.


I can't prove it but I don't think the ball deformation is an important variable here. The ball will deform even more with a blade with no rubber. But it will only shoot forward, it will not affect the spin. This is not a proof but I think ball deformation is negligible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2021 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Shifu Shifu wrote:

orange or blue sponge? Commercial or provincial? This also makes a huge difference

I'm talking orange sponge commercial NEO. The only difference is 39 vs 40. And , to be fair, the 39 was 2 weeks old, while the 40 was only used for 1 day. (but it had two layers instead of one, and had big dome, while the 39 was flat after boosting, because it had reverse dome before)


Edited by seguso - 04/30/2021 at 3:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2021 at 5:35pm
my experience is that commercials are not good for a comparison. They all react differently to boosting and the 40 one might be a dud. Provincials are much better in that regard.
I had commercials which played very good and I had ones that played like crap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2021 at 8:57pm
Exactly, the differences between your two sheets are most likely due to quality issues. Some commercial neo rubbers play great with just 1-2 layers of booster, some take 4 and still aren't elastic enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2021 at 1:48am
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

Exactly, the differences between your two sheets are most likely due to quality issues. Some commercial neo rubbers play great with just 1-2 layers of booster, some take 4 and still aren't elastic enough.


interesting. However (I don't know if it matters) the hardness is accurate: I have two 38, one 39, one 40 and one 41 and it's clear that the hardness printed on the rubbers is accurate. Also, the boosted 39 is still harder than the unboosted 38. The doubly boosted 40 is way harder than the boosted 39. The boosted 41 is harder than the 40.

My doubt is that maybe I need to play more with the 40 to break it in. I remember the 39 (which now shoots rockets) didn't seem so fast in the first week.

Edit: baby oil on the 40 rubber seems to have softened it, and made it faster and bouncier . But I need to test this better. It seems Seamoon doesn't make the rubber softer, Johnson's baby oil does.


Edited by seguso - 05/01/2021 at 10:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2021 at 2:43am
Ball deformation could be a significant variable here. On a hard-enough stroke, the ball actually buckles and then snaps back. This buckling and snapping back changes the contact area and moment of inertia during the impact, both of which affect spin generation. There are some limited studies on this, not enough to draw any broad-stroke conclusions, but not enough to rule out, either.

By the same token, the ball does not necessarily deform more on a bare blade. Too many factors are in play here. The racket weight and blade weight are different. The top-ply hardness and stiffness of a bare blade are different from blade plus rubbers. These affect how the energy is distributed, exchanged and lost. Experiments have to be run to tell for certain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/01/2021 at 10:57am
Ball deformation increases the contact surface, so it certainly increases the spin other things equal. But other things are not equal if you increase the rubber hardness beyond a certain point. Because then you are also giving up the fact that the rubber wraps the ball. So, if the rubber-wrapping factor is more important than ball deformation, you will lose spin. So, yes, it needs to be tested which factor is more important.

But to me it seems likely that the rubber wrapping the ball outweighs the effect of ball deformation. Imagine a blade with an H3 rubber but with a 0.5mm sponge. And then the same blade with the same H3 rubber but with 2.2mm sponge. It seems safe to say that the ball will deform more with the 0.5mm than with the 2.2mm (because the blade is harder than the sponge). It also seems safe to say that the spin will be less on the 0.5mm sponge. Even though the ball deforms more in that case. So the ball wrapping effect is probably much more important. Maybe. :)


Edited by seguso - 05/01/2021 at 3:33pm
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