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Taking ball at the highest point? |
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Jagged
Member Joined: 06/13/2011 Status: Offline Points: 60 |
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I agree with you. Loop backspin just slightly after the peak of the bounce. Reason being it is less spinny compared to the top of the bounce and you can put more time into the backswing, where you can put more weight onto the right foot (for a right-hander) by bending the knee more and going lower and rotating the torso backwards more,so as to generate more power to overcome the backspin. |
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NA1NSXR
Member Joined: 11/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 53 |
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Because even flat hits have topspin. By using the word hit/drive/loop you differentiate between 3 distinctive strokes which in the case of this thread, actually completely determines where you should take the ball. I don't even really care on continuing with this thread, I've been playing since the 90's and on this forum since 2003 and actually forced myself off because of the tendency of conversations on this forum to go this way. I'm perfectly clear on this subject for myself and I thought I would contribute. Whether or not people want to take it or not is not really something I care to stress over too much. If you want to play word games or "loop" balls before the top of the bounce be my guest. Edited by NA1NSXR - 04/18/2013 at 10:01pm |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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A brushing block over or near the table against a loop is a textbook shot. This shot requires you to contact the ball before the top of the bounce. The heavier the incoming topspin, the earlier contact needs to be. Counterlooping close to the table is also a textbook shot. CNT players do it all the time against weaker opponents. Again the requirements are you have to contact the ball before the top of the bounce and keep your center of gravity low.
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dingyibvs
Gold Member Joined: 05/09/2011 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 1403 |
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There is no optimal point to take the ball. You hit it as early as your stroke and footwork allows. For example, if you like to loop with a bigger motion like me, then most of the time you'll be taking the ball at the highest point or when falling.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14849 |
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I think one problem is that you are assuming that one can't get incredible amounts of topspin taking the ball early. In my experience, that is not true, especially if the ball comes off the table enough to make a full stroke. It's all about the brushing motion. The brushing motion that creates topspin can be created by going over the ball or upwards behind the ball. The brushing motion that creates chop can be done by going downwards on the ball or underneath the ball. I don't find the names of the strokes that important - just their effectiveness when playing. I do agree however that for most people, it is easier to generate the most spin by taking the ball after the peak of the bounce because of more time to set up and a larger upward stroke. Flat hits can have topspin, but they are not spin oriented strokes - they are supposed to be hit mostly with the ball on the center on the paddle. They have spin primarily because of how inverted grips the ball. Drives are speed oriented strokes. There are topspin drives or smashes (flat hit drives). I consider a topspin drive to be a loop, but other people do not. Some of the people who debate you have been playing in different capacities just as long as you have. One of the reasons I respect a forumer (who shall remain unnamed for now) on this site is that he rarely ever brings his rating into the discussion when debating things - he just asks questions and acts as if he is learning something new when he thinks other people are saying nonsense. Edited by NextLevel - 04/19/2013 at 6:34am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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power7
Silver Member Joined: 01/25/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 745 |
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Players should be aware that when hitting a topspin ball with inverted rubber. So no matter how you hit the ball, because of spin inversion, you will have topspin on the return ball.
Players can choose to add more topspin to their return shot... But back on point...if you're looping off the table, you'll probably take the shot as the ball is falling. It is pretty hard most of the time to take the ball at the peak of the bounce off the table, because the ball is pretty high at its peak. You'll be doing an overhead smash at this point, unless you're like 180cm tall player... If you're at the table or over the table, usually you'll take the ball before or at the peak... Most players practice taking balls at various times in its arc...hopes this helps.
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Come again? Pretty sure this is a mistake on your part, cause surely you do know that you can chop back a loop, using inverted, and create backspin instead of topspin? |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14849 |
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Every surface has a limit on the amount of topspin that can be inverted and the stroke matters as well, but power7 is generally saying the truth. Edited by NextLevel - 04/19/2013 at 4:40pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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So, you are saying that if someone loops at me and i chop it back, with inverted, the ball will still have topspin? Cause, then we have very different experience of the game... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14849 |
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What he is saying is that if someone loops with topspin and you block or hit the ball with inverted, inverted will change the direction of rotation of the ball and send it back with topspin towards the player, unlike say anti, which will let the ball rotate through and send it back as backspin.
The stroke matters, so you are actually applying rotation to the ball to create the backspin when you chop.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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don't worry about all this other stuff the person just needs ti hit the ball at the top of the bounce reguardless
he is just learning Edited by smackman - 04/19/2013 at 8:46pm |
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power7
Silver Member Joined: 01/25/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 745 |
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I was addressing the issue being discuss earlier about driving and looping topspin balls. There seems to be confusion about how much "rubbing" is needed to creating topspin. When returning high quality topspin balls, not much is really needed to return it will a loop-like arc, you can stand close to the table and just block, mimic the motion of the greatest loop ever, and it will look like a loop....great way to fake an opponent on how much spin is on the returning ball. The point being a high quality loop has a lot of topspin on it, that even spin inversion from a simple block using good quality inverted rubber will have a lot of topspin on it. Chopping a topspin ball off the table are all usually done below table level and I'll leave it at that...so not to confuse the poor guy trying to learn the game.
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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I thought it was something like that, but reacted to the comment about balls always having some topspin on them. Since you said no matter how you hit them. I do agree with your statement now that you have cleared things up and also, it's almost impossible to hit a no spin ball with a regular sheet of inverted. |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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ALMOST impossible, but the old geezer brigade of Inverted J-Pen players are very adept at killing spin (and pace whenever they want) of your spinny loops by taking it off the bounce with soft hands and a slight, almost unseen motion of the bat at impact. Damn those good skilled geezers and their #@*&%!! blocking.
Edited by BH-Man - 04/20/2013 at 1:22pm |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Maybe have a look at this: http://www.laola1.tv/en/int/table-tennis/ettu/ettu-cup-match-1-daniel-gorak-pol-grigory-vlasov-rus/video/497-3024-117359.html and try to see when the players take the ball... Enjoy. |
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winterdrops
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2012 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Please watch this. A chinese coach explains that you should hit the ball at the highest point close to tabl, near and mid distance you should hit the ball early descending position. It may be useful for the topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ddVkXRh1UeY#t=855s |
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Stiga Infinity
Fh: Bluefire M2 Bh: Evolution ELP |
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ZApenholder
Premier Member Joined: 03/04/2012 Location: . Status: Online Points: 4806 |
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Just to note, the coach didn't say you "must". He is just mentioning how Ma Long does it. Generally if you are close, you will hit it on the rise or at the highest point. If you are further back, you will let the ball dip, but generally Chinese style don't let it dip a lot whereby Euro style lets it dip very low. |
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winterdrops
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2012 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Yes, you are right.
Obviously Ma Long is one of the best players in the world. This could be seen as an aspect of right technique. |
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Stiga Infinity
Fh: Bluefire M2 Bh: Evolution ELP |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Totally agree that you can generate huge amounts of topspin even when taking the ball early. Also blade angle is mainly used to adjust the trajectory (controlling how much you lift/drive the ball). The major factor in spin production is the stroke itself. Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TG78y1EEgJY#t=52s ZJK's final loop is almost open, yet you can see how much side-topspin he generated using the stroke. |
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power7
Silver Member Joined: 01/25/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 745 |
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For me to keep the loops low and fast I prefer hitting the ball on the drop at about table level or sometimes lower if I'm moving. I like to make contact on the lower half of the paddle and rip the FH over my forehead. Recovery is slower for this shot, so it is usually done when I'm pretty confident that it will be a winner or the return will be pretty weak.
If I'm taking the shot at the highest point, and it is not a drive, then I'm probably looping a backspin closer to the table. Then there is counter hitting drills with beginners, where I take it at the top of the bounce, keeping the ball in play will much less spin...
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DHS PG-7, H3 Neo, 729-5
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