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controlling sidetopspin hook serve short
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blahness View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12/09/2020 at 6:51pm
I'm finding it super difficult (close to impossible) to control the sidetopspin kicker version of the hook serve short (though it's still super effective if people misread it, but if they do and loop it hard you're in a very bad spot), it almost seems that the most effective version of the hook serve is the long fast sudden ones which jams people in the middle. Does anyone feel the same way? For people who've solved that issue, how did you solve it? Or do you just stick to no-spin and heavy side-under for the short variants?

It's so much easier to use the reverse pendulum serve sometimes, I can get it double bouncing so much more easily (even with the side-topspin variant). 
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SmileTT View Drop Down
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Points: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmileTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2020 at 1:44pm
I've dabbled in this variation of hook serve before. Like you said, the goal is to make it difficult for the opponent to open up with a loop. Understand that b/c it's topspin, it will kick up or forward.

I improved this serve by having a lower stance/squat and maintaining a thin brushing contact. Try to keep it low, incorporate a foot stomp for noise distraction, and add a slice/underspin after-motion, if possible. 

I also agree that this serve is better for setup of a third ball, rather than a straight winner serve that the long fast sudden jamming one usually is.
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mjamja View Drop Down
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A lower contact point is very important since you are brushing up on the kicker.  If you contact at same height as the side-under version you will be long and high with the kicker.  Squatting is very good since you are lower, but contact point looks same as under version relative to your body.

Mark
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Hmm going lower with the body is a good point, I've always tried to maintain the same serving position as the underspin version which is probably why it is failing lol.... 
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blahness View Drop Down
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Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

A lower contact point is very important since you are brushing up on the kicker.  If you contact at same height as the side-under version you will be long and high with the kicker.  Squatting is very good since you are lower, but contact point looks same as under version relative to your body.

Mark

Btw do you do your hook serve contacting around the bottom of the ball or at the back of the ball? After thinking a bit more, I'm starting to suspect that you can't contact the back of the ball if you want a reliable short serve, as it's too easy to hit the ball too hard. 

I reflected a bit on how I controlled it with my usual pendulum serve, and it was pretty much back of the ball for long fast serves and bottom of the ball for short serves....
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mjamja View Drop Down
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On my normal hook serve the blade angle starts neutral and finishes closed.  That means I hit side and side top early in the swing and side under slightly later (after the blade angle opens).  The kicker is basically the same as the side top, but adds a little upward flick with the wrist.  

With those blade angles the side, side top, and kicker all hit the back of the ball and the side under hits the lower back quarter of the ball.

I do have a variation where the blade angle starts open and finishes neutral ( to slight closed).  The under and side under are hit early while the blade is open and the side top is hit as the blade starts going toward neutral.  In that case the side top serve actually has contact slightly below the back of the ball.

In my normal version, the contact must be extremely thin in order to keep the side and side top versions short.  Sometimes I practice just missing the ball in order to get the feel for the needed thin contact.

There are lots of different versions of the hook depending on whether top or under is produced first, whether the motion is mostly horizontal or has both a down and up portion and whether the topspin is produced by the ball falling down on an almost stationary open blade or is produced by a moving and or rotating neutral blade.  Just watch Parr Gerrell and try to count the variations.

Mark
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Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

On my normal hook serve the blade angle starts neutral and finishes closed.  That means I hit side and side top early in the swing and side under slightly later (after the blade angle opens).  The kicker is basically the same as the side top, but adds a little upward flick with the wrist.  

With those blade angles the side, side top, and kicker all hit the back of the ball and the side under hits the lower back quarter of the ball.

I do have a variation where the blade angle starts open and finishes neutral ( to slight closed).  The under and side under are hit early while the blade is open and the side top is hit as the blade starts going toward neutral.  In that case the side top serve actually has contact slightly below the back of the ball.

In my normal version, the contact must be extremely thin in order to keep the side and side top versions short.  Sometimes I practice just missing the ball in order to get the feel for the needed thin contact.

There are lots of different versions of the hook depending on whether top or under is produced first, whether the motion is mostly horizontal or has both a down and up portion and whether the topspin is produced by the ball falling down on an almost stationary open blade or is produced by a moving and or rotating neutral blade.  Just watch Parr Gerrell and try to count the variations.

Mark

Yeah I have few variations as well, one with the bat pointing downwards and one with a horizontal bat. The one with the bat pointing downwards is kinda modelled after Wang Hao's serve and is quite easy to control and can be combined easily with the reverse pendulum with the topspin motion going first then I supinate to make it look like underspin, or I can supinate to get the underspin directly. The one with a horizontal bat is underspin first and topspin second. I can get deceptively heavy underspin with a no spin looking motion, and I can get the no spin serve too. I can also do the kicker with that same movement which is super effective for a long serve but is pretty bad when I try to get it short :( I have a feeling that it's probably easier to do the no spin serve rather than to try to attempt the kicker and keep it short (too ambitious?!)


Edited by blahness - 12/13/2020 at 2:53am
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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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