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astaroyd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06/15/2021 at 10:02am
talk all hinoki here Smile

Edited by astaroyd - 06/16/2021 at 3:49pm
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WingTT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WingTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2021 at 3:23pm
Is the only reason hinoki isn't used more often as the top veneer instead of koto and limba, due to it cost and availability? It's a very nice material for top veneers due to it speed, spin and feel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2021 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

Is the only reason hinoki isn't used more often as the top veneer instead of koto and limba, due to it cost and availability? It's a very nice material for top veneers due to it speed, spin and feel.

I'm not sure if it's so expensive.

I think it's not more popular because top players, specially chinese don't use it.
their preference for limba/koto comes from many generations.
same with rosewood or ebony, it's hard to  move people away from what they are used to.


Edited by astaroyd - 06/15/2021 at 3:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hipnotic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2021 at 4:23pm
Limba is very cheap, which combined with its characteristics makes it an ideal wood to be used in blades. But the cost was the main reason why it was pushed by manufacturers a long time ago. There are several woods out there that do a fine job as well. Koto is a little more expensive, but within the harder type of woods is still one of the cheapest, and both are widely available. There are several types of Hinoki, but Kiso Hinoki is much more expensive than Koto or Limba, and much rarer. People only use what manufactures make available to them, they were the ones who created the "tradition" of using Koto and Limba, solely for economic reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WingTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2021 at 4:43pm
I have a BTY Jonyer H that I have not used for a very long time because there is too much vibration for me but it was really fast and spinny for an all wood. Over the Covid break and economic stimulus payments I decided to investigate modern Hinoki blades and the BTY 70th Anniversary Effort piqued my interest. Unfortunately it is like trying to buy a high end Nvidia card with scalpers buying up everything so I got a Garaydia ZLC instead. I've never been impressed with the cost performance ratio of BTY blades but with the Garaydia and its Hinoki top veneer I think it might actually be worth the money. It is amazing. Blocks are intuitive and its got speed and most importantly, enough dwell and spin. I attribute a bunch of that to the Hinoki. It even makes H3 Neo on the FH playable without boosting. I think it's going to be Hinoki for me from now on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2021 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by Hipnotic Hipnotic wrote:

Limba is very cheap, which combined with its characteristics makes it an ideal wood to be used in blades. But the cost was the main reason why it was pushed by manufacturers a long time ago. There are several woods out there that do a fine job as well. Koto is a little more expensive, but within the harder type of woods is still one of the cheapest, and both are widely available. There are several types of Hinoki, but Kiso Hinoki is much more expensive than Koto or Limba, and much rarer. People only use what manufactures make available to them, they were the ones who created the "tradition" of using Koto and Limba, solely for economic reasons.

hinoki is not so expensive.
look at waldner legend carbon, ovtcharov carbospeed, rossi emotion..... all below 60 usd and use hinoki.
I think pros simply prefer the feel of koto/limba.


Edited by astaroyd - 06/15/2021 at 5:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2021 at 8:03pm
Nah, you are god, hinoki is just an angel you slap on your paddle to better brush the devil’s 40+ *** testicles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hipnotic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2021 at 3:13am
Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:

Originally posted by Hipnotic Hipnotic wrote:

Limba is very cheap, which combined with its characteristics makes it an ideal wood to be used in blades. But the cost was the main reason why it was pushed by manufacturers a long time ago. There are several woods out there that do a fine job as well. Koto is a little more expensive, but within the harder type of woods is still one of the cheapest, and both are widely available. There are several types of Hinoki, but Kiso Hinoki is much more expensive than Koto or Limba, and much rarer. People only use what manufactures make available to them, they were the ones who created the "tradition" of using Koto and Limba, solely for economic reasons.

hinoki is not so expensive.
look at waldner legend carbon, ovtcharov carbospeed, rossi emotion..... all below 60 usd and use hinoki.
I think pros simply prefer the feel of koto/limba.

I make blades for a living so I know how much woods cost, it's not a guess. I was talking about Kiso Hinoki, which is the most expensive one. Those blades use a lower grade Hinoki, maybe Kumamoto or other variety, which are less than half the price of  Kiso Hinoki,  but still more expensive than Koto or Limba. Still, materials don't even account for 10% of the price of the blade in most cases, but when you multiply those pennies with thousands of blades, it makes a dent.

Of course most pros prefer the feel of Koto or Limba, they are much more neutral, Hinoki is not for everybody. I was just saying that, the reason why they prefer them it's because it's what they have available. There are many other woods out there that do just a good job that aren't even used by manufacturers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2021 at 9:56am
Many hinoki blades claimed to use hinoko actually use cypress and spruce..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2021 at 10:44am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

Many hinoki blades claimed to use hinoko actually use cypress and spruce..

spruce is high end stuff.
andro ligna and donic world champion blades use spruce....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2021 at 3:06pm
Cypress is just a family that Hinoki belongs to. Spruce is not in the same family, so it may or may not be similar to Hinoki. I've never used a spruce blade to my knowledge. That doesn't mean it can't be similar, though.

There are many different types of Cypress, some of which are very similar to Hinoki. As long as you choose a type of Cypress that is similar to Hinoki (Western Red Cedar is a good one) and pick a good piece of wood, you can get a very nice blade that has the same qualities you'd want from a Hinoki blade. 

It's also easy to make a bad Hinoki/other Cypress blade by picking the wood poorly. Just because a blade is Hinoki does not mean it's any good. Likewise, just because a blade uses a non-Hinoki Cypress alternative does not mean it's bad.

Disclaimer: I've only used Hinoki/Western Red Cedar extensively in single ply blades. The quality of the wood probably doesn't matter that much just for a thin top veneer, but I'm sure it has some miniscule effect a pickier table tennis player may notice.

Edit: As Hipnotic said, Kiso Hinoki is extremely expensive. IIRC, it's grown in the Kiso region of Japan (hence the name) and is the wood of choice for traditional temples. Therefore, it's protected wood so availability is limited. Hinoki grown in other regions is less expensive, but still relatively expensive because it's a slow growing tree. It may also be protected, though not to the extent of the Kiso variety.


Edited by Chairman Meow - 06/16/2021 at 3:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2021 at 4:50pm
Thank you chairman Meow, what a refreshing breeze. When will you start selling your 10mm thick 1-ply red cedar blades now that Kevin from American hinoki is gone bye bye?

I did use for a few months a Waldner World Champion 89 and its spruce was close enough to the gentle softness we expect from hinoki, maybe a tad harder. It sure is a decent replacement. I never used Soulspin blades but they use spruce extensively too.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2021 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Thank you chairman Meow, what a refreshing breeze. When will you start selling your 10mm thick 1-ply red cedar blades now that Kevin from American hinoki is gone bye bye?

I did use for a few months a Waldner World Champion 89 and its spruce was close enough to the gentle softness we expect from hinoki, maybe a tad harder. It sure is a decent replacement. I never used Soulspin blades but they use spruce extensively too.



the rumour was that soulspin made those world champion blades..... that's why they said "made in germany".
soulspin probably also made the andro ligna blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chairman Meow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2021 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Thank you chairman Meow, what a refreshing breeze. When will you start selling your 10mm thick 1-ply red cedar blades now that Kevin from American hinoki is gone bye bye?

I wish I had the time for that, but alas. I don't have a wood shop of my own so I have to visit a friend's place to make a blade. He also doesn't have any power tools besides a table saw and a drill press, so making even one blade takes quite a while. I also am not very practiced, so I make mistakes and waste time, especially with handles. It's somewhat difficult to make a perfect, symmetrical handle with basic tools. An asymmetrical, anatomical handle is much easier, but most people don't want that.

Maybe one day I will have gotten better at woodworking and will be able to create blades that are well made enough to sell. But for now, I think Charlie from BBC is still making blades, and he is much better than me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heuschupfen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2021 at 6:45pm
"Hello to all,
I already have 3 Soulspin woods in my possession ( really excellent handmade products I can recommend these woods to everyone- you will definitely be annoyed if you play these woods having paid a lot of money for years to big companies for expensive, actually inferior quality from mass production."

Then I got the chance to play a Waldner Legend Carbon and immediately fell in love with hinoki,
 even if it is only a small taste (more on this later) of "real hinoki feeling".

Meanwhile I am in possession of 5 single ply woods( 1x Speed 90 and 4x Imperial2020 )  and one 7 ply from "Darker"  one of the best Producer for Kiso Hinoki.
Besides Darker, of course, Kokutaku must also be mentioned, but I have not yet seen a Schakehand model and I also think that Kokutaku does not produce any.



Only with these Brands (maybe there are smaller manufactures in Japan, which I dont know ) you will have the experience of true "Hinoki-Feeling".

I also tried a Nittaku Myabi and a Palio Bow, nice but not comparable to Darker.

And even with the individual high-quality Darker woods there are huge differences (I do not mean the fakes, all real "Darker"). 

Because : 

Each single-layer Kiso Hinoki is unique !

The Hinoki tree (belongs to the cypress family, as has already been correctly written) is a plant whose growth is dependent on various environmental influences.

Logically, if you think about yourselves.
If you do not receive enough food, it is very likely that in the long run you will be scrawny and weaker.

It is the same with wood.
These external conditions shape the characteristics of any wood.
Strange as it may seem,
 a spruce that grows at a normal altitude in Germany, for example, has completely different playing characteristics than a "high mountain spruce" (Soulspin uses this for most of its outer layers).

This high mountain spruce grows at altitudes of 1500 m and above. There it is colder, the tree grows slower, gets more annual rings and become harder and denser .... and that we know table tennis players ... ->faster !!!!

This high mountain spruce is of course more expensive and rarer than his "younger brother"(Ultimately also a spruce and may be called "spruce" and sold as such).

Furthermore, it should be mentioned at Soulspin that all veneers are sawn and not "split" with a kind of knife as in almost all large-scale productions.
With sliced veneers there is a lot of destruction of the cell structure.

However, to elaborate on this topic would go beyond the scope of this article :-)

Back to Hinoki resp. Kiso Hinoki

Kiso Hinoki grows only in a small, mountainous region with a lot of rainfall in Japan and is considered sacred in this region. Meanwhile, it is even protected by the government and may no longer be harvested.
Only very small quantities, often diseased trees, are harvested by the forester to make room for new Hinoki trees.

Because alone the term Hinoki does not only cause enthusiasm with table tennis players 
Hinoki is even cultivated on special plantations.
Take the genetics of Kiso Hinoki, breed them and you have a good copy of Kiso Hinoki such as Kumamoto Hinoki.

(Hinoki is also used to make the best cutting boards and those who use a high quality 200 times folded Damascus knife for several hundred dollars will not cut on anything else :-)  

Both in China, Korea and Taiwan, hinoki is now grown because you can earn good money with the name.

In conclusion : 

Why is Hionki so special, what makes it different from other woods ?

Probably the most important characteristic and also good feature for the quality of the wood is the particularly straight and homogeneous growth (Look closely at your Hinoki layers/woods . The strokes / grain (the dark line  is the bark of the tree been each stroke looks almost like drawn with a ruler in the high quality woods).


The older the tree, the more consistant its playing characteristics are These woods are faster and more expensive.

However, only with this old Hinoki ( 250-300 years !!!!!!) have the special charakteristic :
The vibrations...!!!!

Quite simply:
An older Hinoki wood vibrates more than a young one;
(of course there are more to consider here but even that would go beyond the scope at this point

 :-)
I hope to have given useful information and my experience with Hinoki-Hinoki 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heuschupfen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2021 at 6:52pm
P.S 

 My Reputation: I managed the timber purchasing department in a large company for 15 years. I think that I have enough knowledge :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heuschupfen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2021 at 9:38pm
you are right asteroyd  !

High End Kiso-Hinoki 1-ply Wood is not the first choice of professional Chinese Players.
Do you know an aktive European Professional Player ?

I also don't

And there are 2 good reasons for it.

1.Professional Player pratices a lot and therefore they have a high abrasion (some of them receive 20-30 preselected  blades from the sponsoring Brand per Season and choose 10-15 for personal use. 
They select always the most similar to each other(weight, sound ect.....) to have the most possible Consisytency . It has always to feel and react in the same way, even if it is another Blade 

This is not possible with 1-ply Kiso Hinoki, because everyone is unique !!!!

You will never find a second one with the same properties and
its well known, that an 1 Ply Hinoki can break very easy by hitting unfortunately the edge of the Table or falling down on the ground.

The available Kiso Hinoki Quantity in the market is very small, because the harvesting is prohibited by the goverment.
Only a few japaneese Companies have the possibility to get the high quality Kiso Hinoki.

For Example :
Darker produktion of the Speed 90 in the most possible Darker quality-standard "High Blade" in this year is only 3 Pieces !!!!!! (Darker Homepage)
Its very hard to get one of this blades.

2. Very Simple...... Professionals(especialy European)  dont play Hinoki because of the money !!!

The Big Companies  cannot earn money with this product.They are forced to sell huge quantities  because of their higher costs for bigger factries,machines ,Technical development or Marketing for example.
Huge Quantity...-high quality Kiso Hinoki....-> No WAY !!!
At least not in a legal Way or without  seriously mislead the customers.
Both is not akzeptable for international Companies and would suffer damage to their Image. 

It is more economical to launch a Produkt  which every hobby-players or ambitious Amateurs can buy the same Blade like his favorit Star/Playin Style und more  Kids  feel like Timo Boll by purchasing a Butterfly Blade
The professinal Players are the main Marketing instrument to increase/ to hold turnover for the Tabletennis Industry.

Darker is a small Brand.
 For sure they have to earn monyey like every Company. But ,
would Butterfly ever post on their Webshop " Sorry dear Customer.... Its very hard to get good rawmaterial for..... This year version of Primorac Carbon  
does not meet our quality standards and we have to sell it as B-Quality .

In their official Web-shop you can only buy a few of this B-Quality Speed 90.
Normal Quality is sold out since month . !!!!






Edited by Heuschupfen - 08/01/2021 at 11:19pm
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