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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 2:44pm
This vid shows what I think of as 1600 to 1700 players. I do not see how the two could possibly beat these players or even come close.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 2:46pm
In order to beat John, I may try some of these
 
1. Agressive looping with higher success ratio for heavy backspin balls. Strong slow looping for backspin balls may also help.
2. Quick underspin or backspin long service following next powerful hit.
3. To be a good chopper and controller, and can also keep the ball retured low and fast.
4. Blade with long pip in one side and inverted rubber in the other side.
5. It is better to have quick playing pace because he stands closed to table.
 
 
Originally posted by chu_bun chu_bun wrote:

Maybe rating is relative to a region.  These guys appear to be more consistent that 1300-1400 level players I play with.  I'm on par with 1500-1600 players in my region, but I'm not so sure I can beat these two in a tournament.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 2:52pm
I would tend to agree w/ Hookshot on that.  The guy in that video has pretty good defense.  I've come to the conclusion from watching videos like these that my loops are way above what my level probably is (have yet to play in a tournament) and that I have to be more disciplined so that I don't try to force a shot when it's not there and stay focused so I don't make silly mistakes in the short game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote addoydude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:

 
I noticed when comparing rating central ratings of players at my recent tournament vs their USATT ratings that across the board the ratings were 200 and up to even 400 points lower on ratingscentral.

Icontek's rating is higher on ratingscentral.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 3:25pm

I think region has a lot to do with things. For instance, if these guys played in california, I'd be laughing if you told me it was 1600 for either guy. I can understand 1600 at most for somewhere like maine, though.

Whoever put them 1700-1900 however, that's ridiculous no matter how low the rating standard is where you are. You don't see anyone above 1500-1600 get into a pushing rally where the ball goes to the same spot over and over no matter what equipment they are using. I saw 10-12 shots in a row all pushes go to the same spot on the table, and when a person tried to attack it was almost always a miss. I can see how the guy without the hat can be troublesome. But again, anything over 1600 is too much. And he falls right about there. The understanding of point formulation at anything above 1600 should be higher than what those guys are doing, and the most supportive part to that is that they have played each other many many times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote addoydude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 3:48pm
to be honest even hookshot's link above doesn't look like coached players. Many juniors with coaching have more polished looking strokes even at 1000 level. Of course these juniors usually have trouble in adjusting to spin variation even though they have good form. Which just goes to show good form is not everything and basement style can take you far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 3:57pm
Thats right, they do not look like someone with alot of coaching but,,, they are 10 times more consistant. And, I consider them "coachable". The original two have so many bad habits, I would not even attempt to coach them. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:10pm
I don't think it's fair to use a high light video to compare players against a video that shows every single mistake made. Have the guys in the original video play 5-6 matches and show the high lights from that and I bet a lot of us would rate them as a lot better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by addoydude addoydude wrote:

to be honest even hookshot's link above doesn't look like coached players. Many juniors with coaching have more polished looking strokes even at 1000 level. Of course these juniors usually have trouble in adjusting to spin variation even though they have good form. Which just goes to show good form is not everything and basement style can take you far.


You can have very "coached" great-looking strokes, fluid motions, great ripping kill-loops and then suck at tournaments.

There was this kid in a Boston club who went head-to-head with me during practice. Man, he was looping and power-driving like Ma Long, his fast loops were really good when we did some warming up and I put the ball consistently to his forehand and backhand (my rating at the time was about 1900, so his "technical" rating seemed really good to me). Then we started playing the actual match, and he consistently got no more than 4-5 points in every one of three sets. Turned out the kid just didn't know what to do except for simple push if the opponent didn't give him nice and easy balls comfortable for looping/killing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by addoydude addoydude wrote:

to be honest even hookshot's link above doesn't look like coached players. Many juniors with coaching have more polished looking strokes even at 1000 level. Of course these juniors usually have trouble in adjusting to spin variation even though they have good form. Which just goes to show good form is not everything and basement style can take you far.


Yeah, I faced a tiny beast of a player in a 1050 rated kid who was like 8 years old it seemed. I won, though honestly only due to winning a couple games by serving with long pips and getting a lot of misses on the returns. He was good, was getting good coaching, was good at drills, just didn't have the experience though he could loop with better form and more balls than many 1600 players. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't win if we faced again, after the match his dad took him to a table and ran drills on reading spin on low spins serves...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

This vid shows what I think of as 1600 to 1700 players. I do not see how the two could possibly beat these players or even come close.
 

I actually thick that the pace of the game is noticeably slower than the one play by the players in the OP.  In the OP there are a lot of quick pushes, and don't forget they are playing with pips, so that mean lower level loopers may be in some shock when they play these 2 guys in OP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


There was this kid in a Boston club who went head-to-head with me during practice. Man, he was looping and power-driving like Ma Long, his fast loops were really good


Wow, looping like Ma Long and only go head to head against you. Guess you are better then I thought

Don't worry, I get your point and I agree with it, some players have "warm up" strokes that makes them look really good, but little understanding or skill when it comes to actuall match situations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2011 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


There was this kid in a Boston club who went head-to-head with me during practice. Man, he was looping and power-driving like Ma Long, his fast loops were really good


Wow, looping like Ma Long and only go head to head against you. Guess you are better then I thought


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That kid grew up a little since then and I watched him play recently - he does a bit better now in tourneys but still surprises me with his low USATT rating (other kids if his age who train as much as he does, were able to to do much better at the tournaments).

I think his speed gets the better of him - he wants to kill every ball and makes so many unforced errors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2011 at 1:04am
Good point about the ratings being a few years out of date. However, I can attest to the fact that these players play no less than they did a few years back. And if anything, John is enjoying more than enough to maintain level (3 days a week of play).

As always Ratings Central is reporting lower than USATT ratings. That's all I can figure, as Sonu Bhatia (one of Maine's best active players at US1962 in 2009) is only rated about 1500 ratings central. Same for Albert Landry a US1700+ player in 2009 who is only RC1439 and TJ Braley is got an initial USATT 1400+ rating but is only rated in the high 800's according to Ratings Central. But I won't turn this into yet another "which is system is more accurate" debate, because discrepancies exist between the two systems, and perhaps having both ratings posted helps paint a better picture (at least in terms of matches played, history, etc).

And Jim, I know you are scratching your head about John, but keep in mind that he's beaten both Cory Johnson in 2008 and Harry Vu (when he was active)several times. Those were both legit US1600+ players at the time. He does well against folks with good mechanics up to about 1700 or so. If for no other reason that loopers up to the 1500 level simply don't have the footwork or consistency to survive the blocks and counters that he dishes out.

Originally posted by davidz davidz wrote:

In order to beat John, I may try some of these
 
1. Agressive looping with higher success ratio for heavy backspin balls. Strong slow looping for backspin balls may also help.
2. Quick underspin or backspin long service following next powerful hit.
3. To be a good chopper and controller, and can also keep the ball retured low and fast.
4. Blade with long pip in one side and inverted rubber in the other side.
5. It is better to have quick playing pace because he stands closed to table.
 


You're mostly on the mark.
The people who can beat him in friendly matches usually play 1. , 2. and/or 5. He has trouble against some LP styles (especially classic penhold w/ the twist of FH LP) - but again, what sub 1800 player doesn't have trouble against that style ;D

John regularly beats choppers/control players who mix chops/lobs/loops.

Originally posted by addoydude addoydude wrote:

Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:

 
I noticed when comparing rating central ratings of players at my recent tournament vs their USATT ratings that across the board the ratings were 200 and up to even 400 points lower on ratingscentral.

Icontek's rating is higher on ratingscentral.


Last time I checked, my USATT rating had finally oustripped my RC rating.

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