The player puts heavy topspin on the ball and the only option going through my mind is to block. (Both backhand and forehand). However, once I try to block it, it'll go off the table. I'll close my racket angle further, but it's quite hard to adjust to it. Half the time, if I close my racket, it goes hitting off the edge of the racket.

How should I deal with heavy topspin balls from any side of the table?

If I should counter-loop it or to block it differently, how?

Thanks.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66169&PN=2&title=topspin-balls-cannot-be-attacked

That has the pingskills video with the three options for countering heavy topspin as well as a good video from Alex Zhang, a forum member.

Another really good video is this one from forum member, xkaboomx.  It's the only time I have ever seen this on video but it sure works if you have the athleticism to execute it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozVAt4LT90o

As a general rule, when blocking slow heavy topspin, be aggressive.  Don't let the ball float too high and keep the racket moving forward, not upward.  Don't start below the heavy topspin ball as any upward motion will send it off the table.  Punch blocks as a rule are better than passive statue of liberty blocks - with the punch block, the spin takes less and the racket angle matters less.  Just get behind the ball and hit it rather than reaching for it.  Even the passive blocks require you to take the ball really early and low and are almost always riskier.

If you block soft against a slow but very spinny loop, the spin takes more on your racket, and it's harder to control. The harder you block against these, the less the spin takes. You have to find a balance, of course. If you block too aggressively you'll also lose control. I think the idea that apw46 was saying is that you can just stick the racket out and pop the ball back with nearly 100% consistency, but the goal of blocking is to keep the ball low, not pop it up softly. If you are trying to block low, then you will be more consistent by being more aggressive. EDIT: Perhaps block firmly might be a better description than block aggressively. 

-Larry Hodges

1) Passive block - Easiest to do.  A common mistake (especially if the loop is coming at you slowly) is o push forward into the block, causing it to go long.  Make sure to close that paddle angle, catch it before the top of the bounce, and resist wanting to move the racket forward as you block.

2) Smash return - IMO, this is harder to do correctly.  It is the most aggressive way to respond, but you must come downward and follow through going over the ball, or you will hit it long.  Very satisfying when you do it right, and sometimes makes your opponent think twice about giving you that spinny loop again.

3) Counter loop return.  This is not that hard to do, and you can do it in a slow controlled motion or more aggressively.  You just have to commit to it.  Also, you can still return this way (or might be your only choice other than a chop return) if the ball has traversed past the top of the bounce.

There are other more advanced blocking options too:

4) Chop block.  With your paddle angle pretty much vertical, make a quick downward motion as the ball contacts the paddle.  This is a good skill to have, and oftentimes really throws off the looper because the ball comes back to them short and dead.

5) Sidespin block.  At the point of contact cut across the ball from side to side.  This is really just a different way of doing a passive block, but it can be an effective way to return the ball very short.

6) Cutting-swipe block.  I made this name up, but I'm referring to that advanced funky block that you see Kenta Matsudira doing (I've seen Ma Long and some others do it too).  There's some slow motion video stuff of him doing it.  It's pretty freaky.

 

When I counter a very spinny ball with an aggressive stroke over the table, it looks amazing to the uninitiated, but they don't realize that the seemingly easier shot (passive block) is actually riskier (in my experience at least because it pops up the ball even if it gets it on the table).

I agree that a weak passive block is what the looper is looking for, such that the looper can then easily counter with an even more aggressive loop or smash return.  But, a good passive block doesn't mean that you are popping the ball up.  Rather the idea is to really close that paddle angle and absorb the spin (i.e. don't push forward into the block) so that the block is low and short.  The looper will be forced to move in closer to the table or possibly they won't be able to loop the return at all if you keep it short enough.

Also, if you are limited on movement in your game then learn the chop block.  It is a very effective spin variation return.  I find it to be more natural on the backhand side.

The common problem with the passive block is that one concentrates on just trying to handle the spin and they give a weak block to the middle of the table.  There's nothing particularly wrong with a passive block return though.  Once one understands the touch and paddle angle better then a good short and low block is ok and can diffuse the counterattack.  Even better though is to be able to consciously direct the block to the corners.  A very effective response is simply to direct the block wide to their opponents forehand corner.  Be like Waldner!

This is huge, stepping to the ball when blocking. When players reach for the ball instead of stepping, they often open their racket as they do so. I think it's because they are no longer doing a shot they have practiced regularly, and so their subconscious no longer knows what racket angle to reflexively use, and so falls back on beginner habits.

-Larry Hodges

I am a mediocre blocker at best, but I live off of a very heavy opening loop, so I have a good idea what kinds of blocks work against it.

I found that I do my best with people who only adjust their arm for blocking, so rather than trying to loop into wide corners, I usually aim for the body or to a spot that is just within reach, but outside the comfort zone.

At my playing level, people do not hit through my spin with all that much success (higher level people probably can), but I suspect that is partly due to the sidespin component: I get a lot of movement on the bounce.

I get into the most trouble with people who move to the ball and calmly use my pace and spin to re-direct it toward some uncomfortable location.

ILya

Behold the awesome blocking!

 

I agree that the passive block is the basis of stroke technique with inverted rubbers as it teaches racket angles.  I agree that being able to let the racket absorb more energy is critical to taking pace off the ball (hence the need for "soft hands" and sometimes even pulling the racket backwards while blocking) as well as being steady on contact.  However, slow spinny loops do not come with pace and sometimes, they are loaded with so much counterintuitive energy that even a passive block is ineffective.  Sometimes, you need to knock some of that incoming rotational energy out of the ball and hope it works for you as outgoing pace/spin or it will just grab your rubber and shoot off.

 

Moreover, as Baal pointed out (and I think Larry on his blog too), when you tell someone to block aggressively, what changes isn't only that they hit the ball a bit harder - their attitude to the ball also changes.  Rather than hesitating, they try to get to it faster.  That often means taking it lower and being on top of it and that produces positive results just by itself.  It doesn't mean to smash the ball, but even if someone gets frustrated doing that, if you compare his constency smashing the ball to that with the passive block, you may find that his consistency is higher with the riskier shot.  It's one of those things about passive blocking that some people never realize - blocking softly is better for speed than for spin.  Part of the reason (and this is Larry) is that you aren't going to change your racket angles in 10 seconds, but you can hit harder in 10 seconds, and that gives you a chance to do something.

 

 

I have - I've hit with 2500 players before.  However, it's quite possible that you (and APW46) are addressing this question at a level that is far removed from the practical experience of most people that would ask it.  I'm addressing it from the level of the player who is frustrated that he is facing this annoying guy who is looping spinny and slow topspins to him and he can't block a single one of them (after I drill him for 5 minutes, he understands that he was being too passive).  I am not addressing it from the perspective of Kenta Matsuidaira, who is blocking the ridiculous topspins of Xu Xin with soft blocks because he would never ask that question.

 

Perhaps a better phrasing than blocking aggressively would be to tell them to block more firmly. But blocking is a lot more basic than looping; even a beginner can quickly learn to block firmly, and see how the spin from a loop takes on his paddle less, and thereby gain consistency. 

-Larry Hodges

What they are demonstrating in this video, and what the opening posting asks, are different things. The opening poster isn't a beginner - he even asked if he should try counterlooping against slow, spinny loops. If all he wants to do is pop the ball back weakly, where he's not worried about popping the ball up, then all he has to do is stick his racket out and block back softly, and he'll develop a consistent but weak blocking game. The spin would take on his racket more, so he'd have less control, but if he just pops the ball back weakly then the very slowness of his return would keep it on the table. If he wants to make an effective block that hits consistently, then he needs to block more firmly (i.e. more aggressively). 

If he puts a little pace on the ball but not too aggressively in a misguided attempt to be consistent, that's when it'll probably go off the end over and over. That's why beginners and intermediate players have so much trouble with slow, spinny loops. Instead, they need to block more firmly, more aggressively, so the blocks are both consistent and effective. 

You can go for a soft and low block by just sticking the racket out with a more closed angle, but this is harder to control than if you block more firmly, and will tend to pop balls up. Since the spin takes on the racket more, you have to get the racket angle almost perfectly right, while you have more leeway if you block firmly and somewhat aggressively. (On the other hand, a slower, dead block that stays low is rather easy with most non-inverted surfaces, or with less lively or less grippy inverted surfaces.) 

The video is showing something different, i.e. teaching beginners how to adjust their racket angle against heavy topspin. However, where he says the racket does not move forward, I disagree. I saw this video a few years ago when I first started my blog, and chose not to link to it for that reason. While you can block that way, it's teaching a rather poor habit, and makes things more difficult for beginning and beginning/intermediate players. A more firm block, with the racket moving forward, is easier and more consistent in making decent blocks (not pop-ups), since spin takes on it less. Players with very good slow, spinny loops usually struggle with players who block aggressively as that mostly counteracts their topspin. 

At my club, we have eight full-time coaches, seven of them from China, two former Chinese national team members, the rest former province team members. (I'm the lone non-Chinese full-time coach.) All teach blocking against spinny loops with a firm, aggressive stroke. When I slow loop in practice matches with the kids, they are taught to block aggressively (or counterloop), and they have been pretty successful in this. When they block off, over and over the Chinese coaches tell them to block more aggressively. It is against faster loops that you can mostly just stick your racket out and play off the opponent's own pace. 

When I face an inverted player who just sticks his racket out to block my loop, I'm not going to feed into this by trying to loop hard with my opening loop; I'm going to throw my slowest, spinniest loop deep on the table, and watch them block off or pop it up. I can also mess up these type of blockers by varying my spin (even dead loops) as they have to get their racket angle almost perfect to make an effective block, and that's not easy against heavy or varying spin. 

I also feel, similarly to what Baal has posted here earlier, that wording does get in the way a little, at least for me and all the other less-than-very-advanced players. 

It looks like that, in order for me to effectively block a heavy topspin loop, the heavy spin that is on the incoming ball must be in contact with the surface of my racket for as short a time as possible, hence a "short lasting", or a fast, or an aggressive, or a firm block will work well...

For the reason that a longer contact gives to the incoming strong spin a chance to do the damage, a soft block, a slow block, or a gentle block will be more difficult. Hence, one must be fast and decisive during the contact when dealing with a slow heavy topspin. But, if I got it the right way, it is the same as what was said previously in this thread.

Edit: Or maybe, just maybe, a firm block means a block where I use a fast and overpowering motion, guiding the ball over a distance as I move the racket?

I am not a very good player but what I "figured out" is that simply just putting out the paddle and block a spinny loop ain't enough. I learned that I have to make the whole stroke and "guide" the ball, almost pushing it down. It is very disruptive for the attacker because the ball sinks quite low as you push it down. Against consistent loopers and at higher levels, it's not as effective and it's better to counterloop/smash it but I think this method works up to at least 2000.

Those backhand blocks of Wang Hao are exactly what I've written about. Because he's hitting the ball firmly, not just sticking his racket out there, he doesn't have to close his racket as much. Since the range of angles needed is less, he has more control and more consistency at a good pace, In a game situation he'd be blocking more aggressively with almost the same racket angle (just a little bit more closed). Contrary to the video referenced earlier, where it showed blocking without the racket moving forward, here Wang Hao brings his racket back into position and then drives it forward through the ball. 

-Larry Hodges

A year or so ago I was having a lot of trouble blocking the super heavy topspin that would come from players slow-looping a push.  The ball is SO spinny, it seems impossible to close your racket enough.

TIP:  You DO need to close your racket, but maybe not as much as you think.  The reason why players have so much trouble blocking these, I think, is because they move their racket forward when trying to block.  When the ball is that spinny, any movement of the racket will send the ball flying off the table.  When you block, hold your racket very loose and COMPLETELY STILL.  You'll be able to get those ball back much easier.  It takes time to break the habit of moving your racket on every hit, but you'll get it.  It worked for me so well.

This might get the ball back, but it won't get it back particularly effectively, except as a change-of-pace. At higher levels, you need to put some pace on your shot. You won't get that by holding the racket completely still and relying on the incoming spin to rebound it out fast enough. That'll work against faster loops, but not against slow, spinny ones. Watch videos of higher-level players, and you'll see how they do move their racket forward as they punch the ball out. There's nothing magical or difficult about it. But if you find this successful for you, then by all means continue and I won't argue with you. (Have you watched a video of yourself to see if you really hold the racket absolutely still?)

-Larry Hodges

I understand what you mean Larry, but I think describing the motion as you've said where you just hit "firmly" is not a very good description of the right motion.  The mistake being made by those having trouble with the slow spinny loop return is that they move their racket forward into the block as if they were trying to flat hit the ball.  I think what you are describing as the correct motion is different, where you close the paddle angle and you are actually going up over the top of the ball as you move the racket forward to counteract the spin on the ball.  If this same motion was magnified it would become a full counter-loop return.

The main difference between a block and a regular stroke is that when blocking, you cut down on the backswing and focus on taking the ball quick, and then push the racket through the ball. This is what top inverted players do when blocking (though some use more backswing to increase the speed and spin of their block), and it's easy to counter the spin this way. Others want to have no forward motion, and keep the ball on the table by simply hitting the ball softer, i.e. they are forced to do a weak shot that's mostly good as a change of pace. With modern sponges, you can more easily do this while also topspinning the ball, but you can also do this with only a light topspin, i.e. blocking almost flat with a punch block. When you block with inverted against a spinny loop, the incoming topspin rebounds out as topspin, meaning it essentially goes out like any other drive with topspin, and so you can put pace on the ball like any other topspin shot and still be consistent - and as I've pointed out, by blocking firmly or aggressively, the spin takes less on your racket. This leads to a very consistent block, where the ball goes wherever you direct it, and where you don't even have to close your racket that much, as demonstrated in video shown earlier by Wang Hao. However, others have differing views on this. Let's leave it at that. 

-Larry Hodges

+1 Exactly

I don't quite buy the argument that by hitting more firmly you take away spin from the ball.  You can "punch" into the ball with the block, but you still have to deal with the spin which means you must change the angle that you go through the ball to be more downward.  It can be very hard to do this sort of block though if the loop is at a low angle or is very deep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_pxzoqBKfo#t=57" rel="nofollow - Here's Wang Hao blocking . (Link should take you 57 seconds in where he starts to demo it.) Note how his racket moves forward as he blocks. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLEANIwUNtI" rel="nofollow - Here's Kenta Matsudaira blocking . He may be the best blocker in the world right now. Again, note how his racket moves forward when he blocks. Yes, these are world-class players, but that's why I put up the first video, since that was more of 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnu66pEzrmI" rel="nofollow - Here's Yan An  (on left) blocking against Ma Long. At the start (first three rallies) he's mostly just blocking (though he counter-topspins a few). On the ones he blocks note how the racket moves forward. 

There are many more videos - these are just some of the first that came up. Yes, these are world-class players, but blocking is a pretty basic shot, done pretty much the same at all levels, except of course at the world-class level they block a little harder. But as the first demo shows, this is standard at all levels. 

-Larry Hodges

It doesn't take spin off the ball; the spin takes less on the racket, and then it rebounds out as topspin, making it easy to control at a relatively fast pace. 

-Larry Hodges

-Larry Hodges

Larry,

Thanks for all the suggestions it's been very informative and helpful!

I guess we differ on this. I think the blocking technique taught and shown in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E07Jq-uzXHs#t=250" rel="nofollow - the video I linked to above  is pretty basic, and appropriate to beginner levels. I know I teach it pretty successfully to beginners, both juniors and adults. (I just finished teaching a 10-week adult beginning class - I've taught many of them - and I teach beginning juniors all the time.) Anyway, if you are successful coaching it a different way, then I'm not going to argue it. I also hope I'm not one of those coaches who are "obsessed" with what is correct at the high levels (except for those striving for high levels) - if so, I better not teach that adult beginning class any more. 

-Larry Hodges

As LarryTT mentioned above, and I fully agree, an aggressive block of a spinny loop does not seem to be THAT difficult to learn for us grassroot players. It can be quite spectacular, too, hence the incentive to have it in one's arsenal. Unfortunately, this shot is practiced too little where I play.

Here is another video (posted on another thread yesterday by zeio)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUPi4FSX05A" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUPi4FSX05A

It is a recent Waldner vs Saive, so obviously we have good blocking against good looping here... see yourself for the result...

I'm really looking to keep improving in my game so I'll try break in the habit of aggressive blocking and counterlooping. 

In my experience, lower to mid level players lose matches regularly because they block inconsistently against slower heavy topspin, when making the opponent play another stroke could be enough to tip the balance.

Most well structured players I know, use consistent low risk topspin to comfortably beat lower rated players, as you climb the standards though, its far less effective.

 

+1

 

I believe that in blocking (and just about any shot) when you are in good position (for blocking you step up to the ball and look over it from above and behind)... when you do this, it just gets easier / more instinctive.

Fixed. I wonder if others were able to open them?

-Larry Hodges

Hey Larry,

I'm finding the passive block too sensitive to touch, especially when the incoming ball is very spinny.  So I've been trying out the active block.

Is the idea to engage the topsheet and/or sponge to "rebound" the spin and use the dwell time to direct the ball back with a slight forward motion?  Should I also graze the ball to counter the incoming spin?

For fast (and spinny) loops, should I also prevent the ball from hitting too much into the blade?

Thanks.

Very, very true.  The slow-ish, high arc heavy topspin although still a big weapon for me is not as potent as it used to be.  Definitely, the juniors are not afraid to step around to their FH and put that stuff away.  Or sometimes, BH loopkill Kreanga style.  Against my freakin' super spinny loop! The nerve of these youngsters!  But not until I switched to Tenergy that I realize what they are doing is now much easier due to Tenergy's (and other SGE rubbers like Rakza) shot absorption.  With the 38, they would have popped the ball towards the ceiling.  You don't even have to do a spinny opening loop against push nowadays.  Go straight to the loopkill.  Disconcerting it is, my friend.  But great observation.

...not necessarily, as friction is a surface property only, but the amount of spin imparted can be a function of the sponge, and/or (and most appropriately) of the topsheet-sponge combo, and how they work in tandem. The blade is a big part, too... the whole racket.

Thus, I offer that the discussion of the stroke techniques/footwork etc. is the most relevant thing that can be discussed here. For me, equipment suggestions covering the entire setup, and how to use it, are also of value as I am a mediocre player who increasingly enjoys winning by playing a good blocking game.

Did you read above? -

"It pretty much doesn't matter what equipment you use, at various times you have to be able to execute a block, and there is a technique to it, just like any other shot" 

Could you please correct how you quote my words? Thank you.

 

I still don't know why you guys talk in terms of throw angle when you can't really define it or what determines of the throw angle is high or low.

The ratio of spin to speed is good enough.

Back to blocking.  You can block with anything.  It is easier to block with slower and less spinny rubbers if you are only worried about getting the ball back on the table.  Blocking with T05 requires a more active approach.  The paddle must be angled much more to compensate for incoming spin but what is nice about T05 is that an fast incoming loop will return with a lot of topspin that will help keep the ball on the table. 

Why does this happen?  Because the top spin will push the top sheet of the T05 down but when the top sheet rebounds the ball's spin will be reversed and go back as top spin even though the blocker didn't make an active stroke.  There is a Pathfinderpro video that shows this.  The higher the ability to generate spin the more the paddle must be angled to compensate for that spin.

Another trick is when to block.  I don't agree with those that say on should block off the bounce.  The reason why is that if the ball contacts the paddle below the net then the ball must rise to go over the net.  If the ball is still rising as it goes over the net the ball will either go long or bounce high so the attacker has yet another easy ball to attack.

However, if the blocker waits too long and hits the ball at the peak then the returned ball will bounce up about 0.8 of the contact height.   Blocking a ball that has bounced up 15 inches means that it will bounce up 12 inches on the opponents side give or take a bit.  For best results balls should be blocked when they rise just a little bit higher than the net so the ball can be hit low and flat over the net.  Good SP players figure this out by trial and error.  If the ball goes over the the net horizontally 7 inches above the table the ball will only bounce up about 80% of that height. This means the other guy will have to hit the ball up over the net or loop it to keep the ball low.  Now the blocker's goal is to hit the ball low and flat over the net so the other guy can't loop the ball.

 

Yes, the same force that creates spin also will move the ball tangentially as well as spin the ball.

To believe otherwise, is to set aside facts which can easily be verified by simply by bouncing a ball on a bat in the commonest test known for deciding how spinny a setup is. But I am not going to pursue it further, as constant repetition makes for boring threads

However, if we define a 0 degree throw angle as angle from horizontal then the throw angle is

arctan(VerticalVelocity/HorizontalVelocity).  If the horizontal velocity is high relative to the vertical velocity the throw angle will still be low.  This is why the spin to speed ratio is enough.

About the "just get the ball back" comment.  There hasn't been much mention if where to place  the ball.  I find this to be key.  A good block to the opponent's 'sweet spot' will still be a losing shot.   Igorponger's criss cross blocker was very good at blocking to specific locations and maneuvering people at of position.  Criss cross blocking seemed to be his only tool but he is very good at using it.

Even some advanced players with good speed and footwork fall for this.

 

I call it the 1-2-3 system of blocking.

 

1 - block to crossover with only enough pace to make them realize they can still FH attack, but don't really get their position set enough for balance/recovery

 

2- block to wide forehand, watch them watch the ball go by them, or watch them emergency spazz out and barely get to the ball for a weak return

 

3- IF ball comes back, wide BH is wide open and opponent is likely already wiped on lying on floor with two broken ankles trying to quickly recover from poor footwork move or too far a lunge.

 

With the 1-2-3 system, you are seeking to take advantage of an opponent's over-eagerness to FH attack.

 

Not everyone is brain-dead FH attack happy at all cost, and also better players with better footwork will have better balance and recovery. Even so, many who choose to power attack you down your FH line open themselves up to a crosscourt fast block ace. It is not  that hard to fast block, simply get down and see the ball, hold racket firm and opponent is giving you all the pace and spin to use against him. Just get to the spot with a firm bat and when you are looking over the ball, adjusting the bat angle is instinctive. Opponent is expecting a winner and has little clue that you will block it, let alone by him for a winner.

 

The better players who are in good balance & position of course step around ALL the way to give then suddenly every possible angle to hit with either spin or pace. Giving up the weak block to get them in this trap can often get you trapped.

 

Then is goes back to what zeio is saying... why give up the gopher ball in the first place.

 

Still, often, it is because the opponent is doing something(s) better than we are and can pretty much do whatever (s)he wants. Sometimes, the difference in class it too much and in the end, it doesn't matter. Still, even with the big boyz, it profits you to practice effective tactics and shots, even if the match result will be an overwhelming loss.