Am interested in seeing whether ESN's thin topsheet / thick sponge approach actually helped (unlike the same approach in the BTY Bryce HighSpeed).

just kidding - TT11 does that quite often - it was my way to to say they are not in stock yet even though they have them on their website

rasanter is making me want to make a new order 

i'm not making $ while in school. should i hold off or just buy now?

V47

But would it be the closest rubber to T64? 

Or there is another rubber which is a T64 clone?

Still waiting for my sheets to arrive.

Well, that's more a function of sponge hardness and glue used, isn't it? I've never had any issue with Tearmender and any rubber with hardness > 42 degrees.

To me, it is really curious that Andro decided to completely stop manufacturing 2 rubbers that were probably their biggest sellers (Rasant and Rasant Grip) and then not have replacement 45 degree rubbers in the Rasanter series.

While they state that this is because the new stuff is so much better, I think that it is just a financial planning / budgeting decision: after all, a lot of these TT companies (other than BTY and DHS) aren't very large. If I'm not mistaken (& I could be), Andro is owned by a TT store.

But yes, I'm curious on how this new ESN generation (thinner topsheets & thicker sponges) plays out (from what I know, Donic shall follow with their 'Blue Storm' version of the same stuff, hopefully later this year).

The reason for not having a 45 degree sponge, is mainly due to the newer generation ESN rubbers testing higher than what they play, so essentially the 47 plays/feels like 45.
 

Hi Bjoern , for Rasant Grip do you mean V47 or V42 not R42 ?

few pictures of rasanter r47 and v42 i don't know how rubbers perform i didn't test but topsheet looks similar to rasant grip 

Red Rasanter R47 ultramax (2.3mm)

Dimensions: 168 x 167mm

Weight: 69.5g

Weight / unit area: 0.248 gms / sq cm

Hardness: feels between MX-P and EL-S. The sponge + topsheet combo is floppy out of the package (not stiff).

Strong booster smell. All new ESN rubbers (like MX-P) have this (though MX-P smells of a different booster, perhaps)

Good news: pores in sponge are small (much smaller than MX-P. Probably smaller than Tenergy)

After I cut it for blade, I'll play around with the uncut piece, a low power magnifier and a digital caliper. I don't know how to take close-up photos (with smarphone) like yogi and the rest of you do though.

First,  I forgot to mention cut weight on a standard 157x150 blade: 46g including 3 thin glue layers. Very light.

I glued up a new MX-P max and R47 max on a Nittaku Holz Sieben blade. I played 8 league matches with it (about 3.5 hours of total play time). So, just initial thoughts here.

This rubber corrects all that bothered me about 45 degree ESN rubbers (Rasant Grip, Omega V Europe, Rakza 9, etc). Easy spin using them. But all those 45 degree rubbers (with the large pored sponges) feel unstable on harder hits or while blocking powerful topspins. Bottoming out takes place. This does not happen (for me) with T05, BTW. Also, Rasant Grip had very low throw on harder hits.

I tried fixing this by putting 47.5 - 50 degree rubbers on BH (MX-P / Rakza X / Xiom Omega V Tour). However, then, I lose a little easy spin and more important, I brush a bit too much.

R47 (to me, that is) is the golden middle. It definitely feels softer than MX-P. More important, because of the thin topsheet, it is easy to generate spin (using sponge as topsheet bends easily. Easier to generate spin than with MX-P). The ball sinks into sponge much more than with MX-P. And, because it is a thick sponge, there is no bottoming out. There is more dwell with R47 than with MX-P. Fantastic grip (feels like Omega V Europe topsheet grip) on plastic ball.

Loops were easy to spin and there was serious arc  (perhaps the thick sponge helped here). While this is not a bouncy rubber, it is powerful (I'd say more powerful than Rasant Grip or Omega V Europe. About as powerful as Rakza 9). However, it is very controllable (not bouncy). Very good spin & due to the thick sponge, there was a very pronounced arc (medium throw).

So yes, I agree on Andro's getting rid of Rasant Grip. That is a bad rubber compared to this.

Of course, we have the usual caveats (durability: unknown, etc).

That pic still doesn't look as thin as acuda blue.  They've probably gone somewhere in the middle.

I understand rubber fatigue.  It's how babies are born, right?

This does sound promising.  If it maintains the arc on harder strokes then it could definitely be an upgrade on EL-S.

Early days yet though.

OK. I edited the number down to 0.2477 gm / sq cm!

When I say light, I relative to other 47 degree rubbers. For me, weight with glue matters more. I normally use 3 layers of Tearmender on it.

MX-P (because of large pores, perhaps) cut to my blade is more like 51g-52g. So, 46-47g for R47 (that has a similar hardness sponge) is light - lighter than T05 and about the same as T80. So, in the same category as Acuda Blue P1.

Yes, that is exactly my problem with EL-S.

Though, there are many players who are comfortable playing with softer rubbers - you have to make sure you don't hit the ball into the sponge very hard.

And yes, early days, for sure.

akifumi makes it look awesome

So, a bit less than MX-P but same weight as T05.

Am going to try the rubber out on a composite blade (Freitas ALC) along with MX-P.

he just got it...

Best rubber I've tried on BH, I think. However, if you are perfectly OK with the new-age 45 deg tensors (like Xiom Omega V Europe) and don't find them soft, then you can skip the R47 (as to me, it is a OVE with thinner topsheet, thicker / harder sponge and slightly better feel). The dwell makes it feel softer than 47 deg while looping (feels like T80 for those strokes). Huge arc and everything goes in (because of thick sponge).

For FH, I still prefer MX-P - quite likely because I'm very used to it. I would have to change my FH a bit to use R47 effectively.

I also prefer MX-P for FH serves (though my BH serves with R47 were very spinny).

The V topsheet is just as the blurb says - noticeably thinner and wider-spaced pips, giving it a softer, more flexible feel than R.  Not sure if that means more catapult or just more squishiness yet.  Quality looks high, as expected with ESN, weights are OK and uniform, smell is typical ESN rubbery stuff but not the obvious TRF booster smell from the Bluefire M or Evolution -P days.  I wonder if those days are behind us now for new releases.

Compared to EL-S, the R topsheet feels tougher and less pliant under finger compression.  The V topsheet is more inline with EL-S but perhaps goes the other way and is easier to move around.  The V topsheet is certainly closer to Rasant Beat or Acuda Blue while not being as crazy soft as those, while R's topsheet looks like a toughened up EL-S.  Both are potentially good changes IMO.  Both V and R are very grippy, matte in colour.

Cut weights (157x150):

V42 - 43.29

R42 - 44.46

R47 - 49.70

R50 - 51.55

Colourful, eye-gouging packaging:

Side-on stack.  Top-bottom R50, R47, R42, V42:

Neither of the 2300 (Hexer) and 2500 (Genius) users I know boosts.  IT's okay to try the new stuff but there is a good reason that those rubbers are not discontinued despite their age.  And it's a bit weird to claim that P7 was the gold standard and then talk about not liking the P7 equivalents.

NL this is an article(use chrome auto translate from german)  http://www.tt-spin.de/tibhar-genius-vs-donic-baracuda-vs-andro-hexer/ that talks about how these 3 rubbers are still very good, i m sure you saw it but doesn't hurt to put it out here.

About P7 - recent ESN rubbers are really different to the older ones from back in the day.  It's always going to be difficult to get anything new that's really close to P7 because they just don't make them like that any more.  So the closest fit will be from rubbers that were kicking around at the same time.  Someone who claimed to be an ESN employee said that Omega IV Asia was the closest in terms of construction (and I agree that it's close after trying it out), but I've heard good things about Nittaku Fastarc G1 as well (not tried it myself).

As a P7 user, I ended up with Omega V Asia from the newer generation and was very happy, but it still isn't so similar really.  It just worked well as a replacement for me and my brushy FH.

It's probably easier to talk about the topsheets first.  I think the R topsheet is excellent and is a step forward in many ways from rubbers I've tried recently.  Since the 40+ ball came out, new model ESN rubbers have mostly had a specific type of topsheet - matte, grippy, but generally on the soft side.  There are extremes of course, with Acuda Blue and Rasant Beat being the obvious ones.  R's topsheet is matte, grippy, but not soft.  I'd call it stiff more than hard - it lacks pliability unless you put some force into it.  It compares well to older-gen, harder topsheets (Rhyzm perhaps springs to mine), but has a lot more grip.  I'd say that the topsheet leads to the rasanters playing a touch harder than their sponge hardnesses indicate.

The V topsheet is noticeably softer - this is one of those times where the difference the pip structure makes is obvious in play.

R47 is where the action is, and I think it should be the most popular of the 4 I've tried.  It's pretty fast (even allowing for the slow-ish blades I was using).  The short game is very good and spin sensitivity is manageable in the low gears.  The stiff, slightly resistant topsheet gives a direct, predictable feel in low-power situations.  The sponge is medium-hard, small pores, not particularly bouncy and the package is fairly linear.  The catapult is at the top-end, and so is the spin.  To get a steamingly fast ball you need a fairly full stroke, and to get good spin you need to make sure you work the topsheet.  I found it gave very good loop performance from distance with a big stroke and good wrist acceleration.  On slow loops I had to remember to add a bit of wrist or I'd end up with a fairly lame, low-arc ball.  Serves need a good contact and some care to keep the ball short with good spin, but it didn't take long for me to adjust at all.  Basically - the performance is there and is very good, but you need to work a little harder to get it out.  But this also means R47 plays very solidly in all basic situations - driving, pushing, flicking, blocking.  It is a bit sensitive to spin once the speed of the rally goes up, but that helps loop-loop performance, while making passive play more troublesome.  The closest comparison is EL-S I suppose but the character of R47 is quite different in that low-gear spin is harder to get at, but the max performance feels higher to me.

R50 is stupid-hard.  Whereas R47 feels natural to me when looping, opening up, etc, R50 is simply too hard for me as an overall package.  Sure I could get some meaty flat hits going and blocking was super efficient, but my word it was like granite in comparison with most things on the market (putting aside tacky rubbers here).  Imagine MX-S with a harder, stiffer topsheet.  If that idea floats your boat then fair enough.  I haven't used Rasant Powergrip for any length of time but a clubmate was using it on a Trieber Z last night and Powergrip seemed a little softer than R50 to me.

R42 - I used this mostly on the BH side because I tend to use 42.5 degree on there anyway.  You can probably imagine how this is - slightly less linear, bit more bouncy in the short game, not as solid on hard loops, and so on.  This is mostly true, but there were some stand-out points.  I found it very easy to pull off a high-arc, short-placement ball, so this was great for lifting backspin early off-the-bounce and attacking serves.  Also, persistent topspin attack off block was very good.  Passive play was tougher than R47, and there were a few times where I was caught out by a fast ball when slightly out of position and I'd send the ball high and long.  It isn't as stable as R47, essentially, but as a medium-soft loop-attack rubber it's great.  It felt like a mix of Bluefire JP03 and M3 back when I was using celluloid, in a good way.

V42 - again, mostly used on the BH side.  The throw is lower than R42 (if R42 is medium-high, V42 is medium-low), and the lower arc gives it a faster and more direct feel in play.  It's less sensitive to spin, needs a bit more effort to keep the ball moving when play is slow, blocks better, and has a more harmonious feel overall.  I preferred V42 over R42 on my BH side, but I hit, drive, block on that wing more than I loop and it was just more effective for me.  It reminds me more of something like Acuda Blue P2/P3 but with a less extreme topsheet and more allround suitability - far better for looping than Acuda Blue.  Actually - thinking back - V42 is probably the closest I've come to finding a direct replacement for T64-FX.

It's only 3 hours use, but I think they're very good and I feel that a combination of V42/R47 is pretty hot for my needs.  If nothing else then V42 or R42 are excellent BH rubbers for me and I'll likely stick with them for a while over things I've used recently.  I have my last league match of the season tomorrow night and there's nothing riding on it for either side so I'll give them a bash under a more "pressured" match situation and see how it goes.

edit - oh, and backspin.  I had no real issues with it - went well.  I had a good session with a chopper and it did really well, but the chopped ball was coming on to me quickly.  Against general attacking players, you get more of those floaty balls that sit up and I didn't do so well against those, but that could be me having used tacky FH rubbers over the last few weeks.

IMHO, the Rasanter series has the least confusing nomenclature of all the rubbers out there. The letter (R or V) signifies whether emphasis is on spin/throw or speed. The number tells us the sponge hardness. How much more idiot-proof do you want this made, zeio?

That quote is simply nonsense for rasanter.  I could believe it for older releases, but this time there has been a big effort by andro to do exactly the opposite of this.  Lots of marketing explaining what the models are.  The model names are explicitly describing the rubber's characteristics, unlike Butterfly where you need the nice fancy infographic to decipher their development codes.  Old andro models are being discontinued to remove further fracturing of the marketplace.  There are only two rubber types - V and R, and then a choice of sponge hardness which is a matter of personal preference.  If someone doesn't understand what sponge hardness means or how suitable it is for their game then no amount of information is likely to help them.

It's incredible really - andro has put more effort into explaining this than ever before for this release, and we get "how are people going to choose".  By putting a tiny bit of effort in and reading, I would say.

If someone can't understand simple, cut dry instruction, he is an ID10T, 

In contrast donic system was pretty confusing to search for spinniest/grippiest rubber and i had to refer to the chart which didn't match with the opinion of TT players on this forum.

Tenergy series is pretty clear as well and BTY has good marketing with videos about their rubbers.

Evolution is good too.

Ultramax is a monster. Shall be fantastic if you like to take 2 steps back and BH loop like Kreanga. The arc and spin are vicious but at the table, obviously, you have better control with slightly less sponge.

Edit: I revise my impression of R47 on ALC blades - it is fantastic even on Viscaria / TB-ALC. 

Earlier review was done by taking rubber from 1 blade, not removing existing glue layer, adding new glue layer and putting it on new blade. I've never had a good experience doing this (I find that I need to remove existing glue layer to get optimal spin and feel).