The birth of modern table tennis?
Printed From: Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET
Category: Pictures & Videos
Forum Name: Videos
Forum Description: Post table tennis video download information here.
Moderator: mickd
Assistant Moderators:
URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80846
Printed Date: 04/24/2024 at 4:08pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The birth of modern table tennis?
Posted By: richrf
Subject: The birth of modern table tennis?
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 10:45am
|
If I were to give credit to the one person who did the most to revolutionize table tennis and create the modern game, I would give it to the great Swedish player and coach Stellan Bengtsson. I remember in college how news spread that a young Swede had dethroned the great Shigeo Itoh, in the 1971 World Championships held in Japan. My Chinese friends mocked his style, but look at it, it is the modern style with power coming from the legs and hips in a arc, instead of the back and shoulder. Compare it to his equally great Swedish colleagues Hsns Alser, and Kjell (The Hammer) Johansson which was the shakehand style inherited from the hard bat era. Speed glue technique, developed by the Hungarians and Yugoslavs, made this technique more explosive, and Waldner refined them both, but I have to credit Bengtsson for revolutionizing modern shakehand technique. Maybe someone else has further insight. |
Replies:
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 10:53am
|
I always thought Stellan was the first player with really modern footwork which enabled a lot of the power he got. He also served short a lot, which was not something very many people did in that era. As you say, a pioneer in modern technique. I would say that Johansson was a lot taller, and so he looked a little slower but I always thought his forehand was also fairly modern looking for his era, it reminded me some of Persson. I don't think anything about the way Johansson or Alser played had much (or anything) to do with hardbat technique. Remember that the rubbers and blades were really slow compared to now but neither of those guys ever competed with a hardbat. I actually lived in Sweden around this time and got to see Alser and Johansson play in person a couple of times. They were my heroes. Unfortunately, finding a chance to see them on video or TV after I returned to the US was almost impossible. I only could see static pictures of them in TT Topics from that time. If you couldn't watch Stellan move, you couldn't appreciate how good he was or why he won a WTTC. Now we have Youtube and can peer back in time. There are some other aspects of modern play that were just emerging around then also. For example, Hungarians, especially Klampar, were hitting some pretty heavy spin from both sides right around this time, even before speed glue. One interesting thing is that if you look at video from Waldner at a really young age, like the final he played against Appelgren when he was about 16, he looks more like these guys do compared to the way he played a few years later (and after hew had developed his serve and and third ball more). Now of course the game has evolved quite a bit further, so I would like to invite people to look at Gatien from ~1990 and compare what he did then to some of the interesting players coming up now, like FZD and Harimoto. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 11:06am
I do remember how word was flying in NY Chinatown about the new super-loop technique of Klampar and Jonyer that was giving the Chinese so much trouble. Some club members got a hold of a film and we use to analyze, though most of us were dumbfounded. It took a long time for modern techniques to cross the ocean - and most of it came across the Pacific with the Asian immigration. I also had a chance to watch Bengtsson, Johansson, Itoh, Stipanic, and others at a tournament sponsored by a well-off European living in NY. It lasted only a few years, but it was a test. |
Baal wrote:Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 12:22pm
|
In the '60s. In 1960, Japanese Yoshiharu Nakanishi(中西義治) invented the "loopdrive(ループドライブ)", the stroke destined to revolutionize the world of table tennis.  An Austrian player was credited for inventing sponge racket in 1951, but it was overshadowed by Hiroji Satoh when he became the World Champion in 1952, by using a sponge produced by Rikizo Harada(原田力蔵), founder of Armstrong. Armed with the WMD, the JNT played an offensive game using the stroke called "long(ロング)" and dominated the scene for much of the '50s, beating the European countries to a pulp. Humiliated, the Europeans ditched the longstanding defensive style. Japanese players used the loopdrive first at the WTTC in 1961. It should be stressed that the invention of the loopdrive did not bring Japan the same glory as the sponge racket did, due in large part of China with their fast attack style. Nonetheless, it proved to be a milestone in the future development of table tennis. Ichiro Ogimura spent 10 months in Sweden coaching the national team in 1962. He brought along the loopdrive and inverted rubbers. Hungary was the other country to master the stroke first. The two countries followed different ideals and formed two competing styles in the '70s, laying a solid foundation for the European Renaissance in the '80s. That's also the period when Sriver(1967) and Mark V(1969) were released. Also, the Stiga Hans Alser Allround Wood(origin of the Allround Classic) was released in 1967, and later Yasaka and Stiga collaborated and paired the two together. Without them, what we have now wouldn't have been possible. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 12:29pm
|
The story of Satoh and the introduction of sponge rubber is a fascinating one. Here is Marty Reismann's take on it: |
Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 12:49pm
|
This is a fantastic thread about the evolution of modern game, however I am giving it 4 hours max before voldemort shows up. ------------- http://www.bladesbycharlie.com/models/hinokighost" rel="nofollow - BBC Hinoki Ghost http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74126&title=feedback-rocketman222" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 1:09pm
appwlgren polished the game smoother than waldner |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 3:26pm
|
ye old style..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSy1DikuLyc&list=PLf7SMDBH0qKPyIJiMciKqRrwxtlDzh_ij I do love watching vintage pong.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw4sl4I8BjA FdT
|
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 3:28pm
And now, ladies and gentlemen, following guest appearances in the dank tarn of Auber and the ghoul haunted woodland of Weir, Heeeeeeerrrrrrrrr's Voldi! Spin reversal table tennis, which has been the main way to play the sport for a while now, probably originated with the (especially) forehand protolooping of Ogimura and Tanaka as can be seen in a film clip (silent) probably made between 1955 and 1959. In this clip, both World Champions can be seen happily spinning the ball against one another from oh maybe 8 to 10 feet from the table. They both had a single-sided backhand drive (dare I say loop?), a rarity for single-sided penholders, although Lee Dal Joon could and did use such a stroke. Spin continuance looping (or if you prefer topspinning) is as old as the competitive sport itself. A 1928 silent film produced by Ivor Montagu shows the young English prodigy A. A. Haydon both in real time and slow motion hitting an exaggerated moderately high throw topspin drive against underspin, as opposed to the flatter "plain hit" stroke of Laszlo Bellak. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 3:51pm
|
Rich's original point about Stellan though is not that he used topspin or anything like that. Nothing new about that, or in the use of inverted, by 1970 or thereabouts when the Johansson-Alser exhibition at the top of the thread was filmed. It is the way Stellan moved his feet and the way his body rotates on attacking that was distinctly new. I think Rich made a good point about that. Compare Stellan to any of the top shakehand players of his era and you can see something of the difference. Another one of my heroes of that era was Dragutin Surbek, but compared to Stellan the way he moved was plodding and inefficient (ditto Gergeley or Klampar or Jonyer or Surbek or Stipancic etc. etc.) The way Stellan moved his feet was pretty much the way we are taught to do it now. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 4:02pm
|
FdT, I had never seen the old Russian video before. Thanks for posting. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 4:21pm
|
The transition period was really through the 1950's and it took hold in the early 1960's, players like Stellan Bengtsson did not suddenly appear in the early 70's, they started playing at least 10 years before, it was really the Japanese players who instigated the game we know today. I have just read an article by Victor Barna in Sport world magazine dated 1961, and leading up to the world champs he is talking about the 'loop' I have all his articles in the same magazine through the 1950's and this is the first time he mentions it. I think it is the loop topspin that determines the modern game. He credits the Japanese players for its instigation, but brought to Europe by Stan Jacobson of England.
The turning point for the modern game was when the ITTF regulated rubbers into 3 categories in 1960, Pips with no sponge, pips with sponge, and most importantly pips with reverse sponge. Its the sanctioning of the reversed rubbers that changed everything. The point made by Baal is important, players like Surbek, The Hungarians and big topspinners of the early 1970's were polished players by then, they started doing it however at least 10 yrs before when they were juniors. The older players of their generation, Alser, Johannson, were still largely flat hitters/ counter hitters, and all the Chinese were. China did not start looping till Kong Ling Hui Technically, The advent of heavy topspin did two things to change the game, It countered fast counter hitting, and it made attacking defensive players safer, so both those styles became less effective.
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 4:33pm
|
Well there's this clip which for the life of me, I have no idea what year it is or who the players are.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mEegMVTbIQ If anyone can roughly translate would be great! FdT
|
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 4:42pm
|
the setting looks like the world champs in China 1961, there is a brief clip there of 'looping' at the start.
BTW, the clip earlier in this thread of the exhibition match between Johannson and Alser just look like a modern club match ! ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 4:55pm
Yes. It was a combination of footwork, body rotation, quick off the table punch shots and heavy loops wih short strokes. Very modern and very unique for the times. Here is a video of him winning against the great, 3 time world champion Zhuang Zedong (lots of controversy about his legendary battles with Li Furong). |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 4:57pm
|
And there's this documentray from the time period Zeio is talking about (early 50's) Really wish I knew Japanese at this point... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sewNWpeak8 FdT
|
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 4:58pm
|
This is a fun one tracing the history: |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 5:33pm
Just watched that from start to finish, I think that answers all the questions. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 8:06pm
|
Yes, the Yugoslavs and Hungarians spun heavier, but I still think Bengtsson was lightyears ahead on movement and body rotation. A little later in time but check this guy. Check the forehand loop right off the bounce. I spent a lot of time watching video of this guy doing this. This is the forehand I have tried to copy more than any other. I haven't watched in awhile. It still seems perfect to me. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 8:49pm
|
I too studied Gantien. Almost a carbon copy of Bengtsson;, with the benefit of speed glue. He was so fast with his forehand. I played great trying to emulate him, but it ultimately was too exhausting. Waldner on the otherhand seems to have refined the Hungarian big loop style at mid-distance. Two distinct styles of play. |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 9:03pm
Wow! What a comeback against JO!!! (Although I don't think Waldner was very impressed with his own efforts.) |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/09/2017 at 9:10pm
|
I looked for an interview with Coach Bengtsson but couldn't find one. What a shame! Paddle Palace really should do one focusing on what was happening at this time in the decade of 70's. It really should be well documented. Also, Tibor Klampar. The ITTF is asleep. Here is a video of Coach Bengstsson promoting his Juic blade. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/10/2017 at 4:41am
Some more info on Ogimura's influence on China and Sweden from http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2180" rel="nofollow - an entry of Larry Hodges's blog .
I wanted to translate Ogimura's film last year when http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=77164&title=transition-of-table-tennis-from-the-1940s-to-1950s" rel="nofollow - a similar topic came up but gave up for whatever reason. Better late than never. I will focus on the caption. Hopefully mickd could help fill us in on the narration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mEegMVTbIQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mEegMVTbIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGFZVzQx6WY" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGFZVzQx6WY According to the http://d.hatena.ne.jp/video/niconico/sm14246206" rel="nofollow - description for the video on niconico (which has since been taken down), Ogimura planned and played in the film when studying at the http://www.art.nihon-u.ac.jp/department/cinema/index.html" rel="nofollow - Nihon University College of Art from 1953-56. It won the silver award at the 13th Italy Internaional Sport Film Festival in 1956. Performers: Ichiro Ogimura(1954, 56 WTTC singles champion), Toshiaki Tanaka(1955, 57 WTTC singles champion)
FYI, the description on youtube reads "1960年頃の日本の卓球「世界の頂点」(Japanese table tennis "top of the world" around 1960)". This film was recommended by JTTA, and selected by the then Ministry of Education, Science and Culture for secondary schools/higher education institute/teens/adults. At the beginning, on screen it roughly reads "never-before-seen by foreign players, the penhold grip unique to Japan, an introduction to the table tennis technique and training methods." Shortly after that, the title of the film comes up "Japanese Table Tennis - Technique and Training Methods" The credit rolls. A brief history of how table tennis entered Japan? and now Japan is leading the pack, the shakehand grip used by western players, and the penhold grip used by Japanese players, the physical training etc. @ https://youtu.be/6mEegMVTbIQ?t=187" rel="nofollow - 3:07 , the caption reads "Long playing style", "Forehand long training." @4:28, the height of impact point(timing). @4:57, the footwork. @8:07, the short playing style. @10:38, the practice of attacking the cut(how the chop is called in Japan). @11:44, the practice of counterattack by the cutting side. @11:51, the caption reads "Cut ball". @12:13, "Drive ball". @12:47, "Smash and lobbing and top strike(トップ打ち)". There is a recent Table Tennis Kingdom blog entry about the https://world-tt.com/blog/johta/2017/01/26/%E3%80%8C%E2%97%8B%E2%97%8B%E6%89%93%E3%81%A1%E3%80%8D%E3%81%A8%E3%81%84%E3%81%86%E8%A1%A8%E7%8F%BE/" rel="nofollow - various strikes , and one comment ponders if the term top strike is dead because it is not mentioned by the blog author. Whatever the case, the top strike looks like the speed drive. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/10/2017 at 7:27am
| Thanks Zeio! No question, lots of modern technique in these videos and I believe I read that Coach Bengtsson did study in Japan for a period of time. Has any one read an interview of Coach Bengtsson where he describes this transition that led to the Swedish style of play? |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 11/10/2017 at 9:47am
Thanks very much Zeio!!!! FdT
|
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/10/2017 at 2:42pm
 Yoshiharu Nakanishi. There is an interesting backstory behind his invention of the loopdrive. In the late '50s, Nakanishi was a college student. A left-handed fast-attack penholder, he often attended the collegiate tournaments in Japan. Back at the time, table tennis was dominated by defensive players, and there was a chopper, Goro Shibutani(渋谷五郎), who would constantly give Nakanishi grief. Nakanishi kept losing no matter what, but he kept on looking for a solution.  Goro Shibutani, father of https://www.google.com.hk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiT8ofO3rTXAhVROrwKHUvKAeAQtwIINTAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkECp2xGRr60&usg=AOvVaw1qYM5XNJFwE0Jyna4K2XZu" rel="nofollow - Hiroshi Shibutani (now a member of the Butterfly advisory staff), they became the first father-son pair to get the All-Japan Singles Champion title. When a backspin ball touches the racket, the ball bounces downward, so he thought, what if I pull up at the ball? At the time, the idea of brushing was still a remote concept, so what about striking the ball upward? Would it land on the other side? He experimented back and forth. He was onto something. When the racket face is parallel with the ground, then with the racket swung behind the body, and swung upward vigorously, and back then he didn't know that was brushing, but in doing so, the ball would cross the net, with a really high arc, at a very slow speed, but it was loaded with a lot of topspin. His teammates didn't take him seriously, saying they eat a shot this high for breakfast, that it was in vain swinging up with so much force. What's more, the concepts of weight transfer, core rotation, and forearm snap didn't exist, the pull was all from the arm, which looked cumbersome. But as Nakanishi trained on, his shot became ever more loaded. His teammates would often smash long, or the ball would fly right off as soon as they chop it. Even if they tried chopping with huge amounts of force, the arc of the return would still be very high. This in turn gave Nakanishi an opening to attack. Through all the trial and error, in an encounter at a national tournament, Nakanishi finally defeated Shibutani. Later on, people gave the shot the name - loopdrive. His best years were between http://www.geocities.jp/xswmb283/ayumi.html" rel="nofollow - 1957-1960 , often making the podium in singles and doubles. In 1959, he came in 3rd in singles at the All-Japan Championships, behind Champion Goro Shibutani and runner-up Ichiro Ogimura. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/10/2017 at 3:07pm
|
Thanks! Very interesting. Still I wonder where Bengtsson got the idea to hit with very short strokes in both wings with tremendous hip torque. Today, it may not seem like much but at the time it created an enormous amount of buzz because it was so revolutionary. Unlike the other players in these videos, you couldn't tell that his technique was from that period. It looks absolutely modern. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/10/2017 at 7:40pm
| Not just the body rotation. Look at all of his footwork. Modern. I am gueesing tne real innovation may have been trainibg methods tnat allowed (forced) him to develop it. Maybe someone can ask him. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/10/2017 at 7:42pm
It would be great to get this historical information. Something happened. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/10/2017 at 7:55pm
| Just sent a text to one person who might know more about how Stellan trained when he came up. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/10/2017 at 7:59pm
Great, I sent a message to his club. It would be fantastic if we c are able to contact him! |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 2:46am
Below is the introduction for the https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%91%9E%E5%85%B8%E7%94%B7%E5%AD%90%E4%B9%92%E4%B9%93%E7%90%83%E9%98%9F" rel="nofollow - Swedish table tennis team on Baidu Wiki .
(In the early '70s, after absorbing the loop technique, Europeans mounted an assault on the Asian teams, opening a new chapter of Euro-Asia confrontation, in which Stellan Bengtsson from Sweden was the most representative figure.) Here is an excerpt of an article posted on the Chinese forum fishtt(小魚兒乒乓網). It's titled "Prodigy Bengtsson".
(Even though late-bloomers are not uncommon, but generally speaking, technical breakthrough tends to happen around the age of 18 for men, and 16 for women. For this chapter our prodigy is Bengtsson, born July 26, 1952. The Swedish national table tennis team never hired a foreign coach, with an exception. In early 1962, former WTTC singles champion Ichiro Ogimura of Japan was hired to coach for 10 months. Other than taking leaves when there were important tournaments in Japan, Ogimura shared without reserve his fast-attack and loop techniques. Ultimately, this became the playing style for Bengtsson, a kid just shy of 10 years old. Back then there was the European King Alser, who switched from the defensive style to all-out offensive. However, old habits die hard, so strictly speaking, he became an allround player. There was also the Johansson brothers(TL's note: Kjell and Christer), in particular Kjell who was known as the Hammer(TL's note: Kjell "Hammaren" Johansson). Johansson also played a defensive style, but switched to offensive and got his nickname. Nonetheless, at the time Carl Johan Bernhardt was the best at looping. All in all, Ogimura's 10-month stay meant everything to Swedish rise as the table tennis kingdom. Prodigy Bengtsson became the best player of the fast-attack plus loop style of the '70s. Men's singles World Champion!) ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: Magic_M
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 3:19am
Fantastic thread. I am happy that I am not the only fan of Stellan Bengtsson. 
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69217&PN=1&title=i-am-proud-to-present" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69217&PN=1&title=i-am-proud-to-present ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51774&title=feedback-magic-m" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 6:23am
More info on Carl-Johan Bernhardt.
https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/bordtennis/article22465376.ab" rel="nofollow - https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/bordtennis/article22465376.ab There is a clip of Bernhardt playing against Konaka of Japan on April 9, 1965. Swedish proxy needed to watch. https://www.oppetarkiv.se/video/15023508/aktuellt" rel="nofollow - https://www.oppetarkiv.se/video/15023508/aktuellt ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 6:39am
| Great stuff! Thanks Zeio! It's all coming together now. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 6:44am
| Thank you Magic_M! I believe more should be done to memorialize the impact that he and Ogimura had on the game. Of course, not to understate the effects that the Chinese players had on pushing everyone to find new strategies, tactics and techniques. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 8:49am
|
Eastern European contemporaries of Bengtsson like Surbek were looping heavily. They weren't moving as quickly and it seemed to come from the arm. With inverted rubber looping was an obvious thing to do. Hell, in 1970 I was looping my forehand and so did every other kid at the Kevinge Bordtennis club. But there easn't much emphasis on how to move. By yhe eay, Jimmy Butler, who was coached by Stellan in Sweden, in response to my text. also suggests there was a lot of Kapanese influence. He hss told me the footworh drills they did when he was in Sweden were brutal. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 8:52am
|
Somewher therr is a youtube instructional video from Japan from around 1958 showing Ogimura and another Japanese player doing a lot of training drills. I need to find it. It is fascinating. Edit. And here it is! I recommend this one highly. You can see footwork drills (especially around 9:00 mark), early counter looping, all sorts of cool stuff (even penhold chopping), along with an interesting sound track (a flute concerto by Jean Pierre Rampal). These guys were defitinely moving better than their European counterparts of that era. http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=6mEegMVTbIQ" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=6mEegMVTbIQ |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 9:25am
|
A couple more great video. China vs Yugoslavia 1973 and 1975. Lots of chances to see Surbek and Stipancic. Also Xu Shao Fa (same guy the ball is named after, one of the first people to use a high toss serve). If you compare, you can see the Bengtsson moved so effortlessly compared to his contemporaries, but there is plenty of looping going on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aTT0iIqaRI" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aTT0iIqaRI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLvZwj2duUk&t=1s" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLvZwj2duUk&t=1s |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 9:40am
|
A video history of Swedish table tennis. Amazing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYkiUIelYO4" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYkiUIelYO4 |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 12:15pm
|
Thanks for the information and videos Baal! Thinking about Chinese innovation at the time, probably the most important were the short blocks and 3 ball offense which was devasting until Bengtsson introduced his own version of a two wing, short stroke, power style. One has to be very fast and use core power for this kind of game which he drew from Ogimura but also and amplified. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 1:06pm
|
In the short clip of the match between Bernhardt and Konaka in 1965, both already were counter-looping off the table. Konaka's strokes already looked more or less the modern form with the backswing, weight transfer, step-around footwork, and trunk rotation. From 1966-1970, CNT was absent from international tournaments as China was in the midst of the Cultural Revolution. The progress of Chinese table tennis practically halted. This period provided a rare environment for the western countries, namely Sweden and Hungary, to work on the new style. Sweden focused more on speed, whereas Hungary focused more on spin. I've read a Chinese article depicting the distinct features of the two. Will see if I can dig it out. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 1:19pm
|
That other player in the Japanese instructional video may have been Tanaka. I have bookmarked that particular video. There is an impressive display of forehand and backhand lobbing by both players, and I believe it was Ogimura who demonstrated both a forehand and backhand chop from close to the table, mid-distance, and long distance.
------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 1:25pm
|
Always have to include the Hungarians in any discussion of the transition to modern shakehand style. I think by the time if this video they are already using speed glue, but I always admired Klampar's economy of motion and energy and his beautiful touch. In another thread I posted a slow motion study of Klampar's backhand. He still uses pretty much using the same style today that he used back then, and still playing great. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 2:00pm
|
Absolutely amazing thread this, I love it, thanks for all the brilliant contributions. One thing I am interested in is the time gap between the innovations regarding junior players and that progressing to those individuals making an impact on the top of the world scene. It is becoming obvious that the real transgression from the classic to modern game was the 1960's, I think most of us kind of knew that, but it is nice to see this analysed in detail here. Another interesting fact for me, is that this is well before the information technology boom, so innovations must have been spread more sedately. The knowledge back then was virtually exclusively passed on through coaches. Also note, in virtually every clip, the table used is the Stiga Expert VM, IMO the best table ever made.
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 3:16pm
Here is an early Hungarian training film demonstrating their newly developed super-loop technique. Note, this is pre-speed glue era. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 3:25pm
Yes Im almost certain tbe other player is Tanaka. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 3:27pm
| Also the Yugoslavs knew what the Hungarians were up to and copied it. They did not like each other. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 3:30pm
| Do we know who discovered speed glue first? Some say Klampar, others say Surbek. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 4:45pm
|
All I have heard is "Hungarians". I don't recall reading which. Surbek is Croatian (Yugoslavia in his playing days). |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 7:07pm
|
Easily one of the best mytt threads of all time. It should be stickied in the coaching forum. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 7:19pm
|
A recent video of Istvan Jonyer, Klampar's teammate in the early 70s and 80s, showing his double wing super-loop technique that earned him numerous titles. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/11/2017 at 11:29pm
Yes, Toshiaki Tanaka. I skipped the passage about him and Ogimura performing in the film. Added it back. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 12:02am
|
The story for the discovery of speed glue goes like this: http://www.albur.from.pl/Jens%20Felke%20-%20Glue.pdf" rel="nofollow - USA TABLE TENNIS MAGAZINE • Mar/Apr 2009
As well as the effect it had on the technical progress.
------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 12:25am
| Thanks Zeio. Great story! |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 2:22am
However, there is another version of the story that has popped up in China fairly recently. Below is an excerpt.
(In fact, I'm a chemist Dominique Lohest is a French born in Paris. Now in his 60s, he has lived in Belgium for over 30 years. His best ranking in Beligum was number 6, and his wife was 5-time Belgium champion, and her two daughters with dual nationality. Dominique studied in France and Belgium. After graduation, he worked for a few years at a chemical factory, before starting his own company(TRF Belgium S.A.) to this date. Apparently, the role of athlete was not the end of road for him, showing his pleasant side when being referred by the CEO title. Still he stressed multiple times during the entire interview, "I'm a chemist." This is how speed glue came about Several stories are flowing in the community, most of which all feature one individual - Klampar, who not only is a super talent, but also legend has it he is the first to use speed glue, and spread it all over Europe and across the world. Every story related to prodigy has this mystical, compelling quality, but the reality is often the polar opposite. Dominique trained in Hungary in his early days, and tried speed glue merely by chance. Back then, people leave their rubbers on the blades for months on end. One time a coach had Dominique change his racket. Right away, he found his shots much faster, and at first he thought it was the blade, but the speed would drop substantially after a few hours. Puzzled, he went through the same process time and time again, and finally realized it was the glue. Geared with his chemical know-how, he performed chromatography on the glue, marking the chemical molecules capable of expanding rubber and increasing elasticity. Afterwards, he researched and developed on this principle, producing a speed glue suitable for table tennis players. He started a company and supplied to all major brands, becoming a leader of a generation, earning him the nickname "King of Glue" among the Germans. In the late '70s, Dominique invented the speed glue. Proximity means priority. Belgium players were the first beneficiaries, including the young Saive. Through trainings and exchanges, well-known players such as Jonyer, Klampar, Gergely quickly caught on to speed glue. Since then, the speed of adoption across the entire Europe was nourished by "the glue supplement." Gatien, Waldner, Rosskopf et al. were all gluing maniacs who couldn't skip the ceremony before every match. CNT was late to the party(TL's note: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64344&PID=770536&title=how-should-a-defender-chopper-try-to-win#770536" rel="nofollow - confirmed by Jiang Jialiang ). When foreign players ripped their rubbers off the blades after matches, the Chinese players thought they did it out of anger. When Ma Wenge became the first Chinese player to get his feet wet at WTTC 1991, many coaches in China were still clueless about gluing. Needless to say, the glue used by those players came from none other than Dominique.) ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:44am
|
Speed glue was not developed for table tennis, it is vulcanising glue used in the tyre industry. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:51am
|
That's the version most commonly seen on the net in China, it's said Klampar ran out the glue he usually used, and there was a bike shop close to where he trained, so he went and grabbed a bottle of the tire glue and that's how he noticed the effect. From there speed glue was then developed. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 8:08am
| Another version I read was that the effect of tire/mechanics glue was accidently discovered by a non-professional and then passed along through clubs. It's possible that is was discovered in multiple ways over a period of time by multiple people. Surbek is also given credit in another story. I guess this mystery will never be solved. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 8:12am
|
For years people here bought our speed glue at auto parts stores. Cheaper and better. Compared to the effect of that stuff, boosting is barely noticeable. |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 10:54am
|
" well-known players such as Jonyer, Klampar, Gergely quickly caught on to speed glue." This is all very enlightening. Watching the film of the hungarian players shows the modern footwork is there. what year is that from? The one thing is that the equipment used back then was not as fast or spiny as what we have now. The manufacturers claim that the new rubbers mirror the speed glue effect. Is indeed this correct? Is the equipment used back then so slow that it needed to be doctored to the desired speed and spin via vulcanising glues? Does the equipment available now really recreate the speed glue effect right out of the package? Anyway, just wondering. Is there a book on table tennis that goes into detail like this thread has? in English I mean. The book Zeio pointed out early in the thread is unknown to me and its most likely written in a language I cant read. I have a number of books but they're not very specific. FdT
|
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 2:38pm
|
Not sure but it looks to be around 1972. To me their footwork still looks a bit old fashioned compared to Bengtsson. New rubbers let you do some of what we could do with speed glue. Definitely more than we could do with Mark V or Sriver before speed glue and with old blades. Of course the 38 mm balls were light and fast compared to now but now composite blades are widely used. It is hard to accurately bring back my memory of how it felt to play in those days. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:00pm
|
Ok, here is the speed glue story from my perspective. The first I ever heard of it was in 1980, I was 16 yrs old and playing the Uk tournament scene. Back then the only terminology I heard was that it was called 'bike glue' and the main brand was Veloflux, which is the stuff you use when fixing a puncture on your bicycle. I played a few players in tournament who were using it and the difference was phenomenal, the speed and spin was massively increased on the most common rubbers, Shriver and Stiga mark V. Within a year players were using Tiptop and Pang it was the same stuff ( vulcanising glue) but came in bigger tins from commercial tyre garages. This stuff caused a black coating of rubber on your sponge after so many applications, but boy it worked, we had to however rub the solids off the sponge after too many applications as it would have a detrimental effect. Then in around the mid 1990's the ETTA wanted to ban it, and took the lead by actually banning it in England for two seasons. This was impeccably observed in England because it was before speed glue effect rubbers were invented, so anyone using it stuck out like a sore thumb because of the noise it made. Then when the ITTF regulated 2nd generation speed glues that had to be ITTF stamped and were marketed as 'clean' the ETTA allowed the use again. During the ETTA ban I actually watched an England Vs France match featuring Gatien for the french and Chen Xin Hua and the French team just did not try and lost easily because they could not glue up in England. I honestly think the whole glue ban came from the ITTF worry of litigation because they were sanctioning the second generation of Glues with their stamp. As to who used it first on the world stage, It was definitely Klampar who was unplayable at the time by the rest of the world, so whether he was the first to use it is negotiable, but he was definitely the first to make a world class impact. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:01pm
|
As best as I recall, in the 60s and 70s, Mark V, Sriver, and Double Happiness (pips out) were the dominant rubbers, and I don't recall anyone treating them other than breaking them in. Some mushy rubbers were used by the blockers. There was differentiation in blades but not nearly as much as there is today. No question, speed glue had a tremendous impact on the alchemy of the game. Somewhere in the middle of this documentary , Marty Reismam of 50s fame bemoans the modern emphasis on equipment. There is some irony in the way he describes the modern game as full of trickery: |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:18pm
|
I think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and seriously watching classic hard bat TT just does not turn me on, It seem s like every rally follows the same pattern, the rallies may be longer, but they are boring. Different set of skills and I admire them, but it does not do anything for me and If I were a junior player in the 1950's I would have stuck to football. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:25pm
As a spectator sport it was monotonous and they even had to institute an expedite rule, which required a player to take the offensive, because matches were going on forever. As a player though, it had its merits, since it did create more of a match if skill rather than alchemist chicanery. Rubber really makes this sport rather unique. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:52pm
| There has never been a time when players did not obssess about their equipment. The technical aspects changed. Anyway, this thread is about the birth of modern TT -- the evolution of techniques related to sponged rubbets, mostly inverted, and usually with an emphasis on offensive strategies, which includes emergence of defenders who can attack. |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:54pm
Marty Reisman died December 7, 2012, shortly before his 82nd birthday. He lived through the introduction of rubbers such as Sriver, Mark V, and pips out Double Happiness, "magic play" and the subsequent two-color rule, speed gluing, the shortining of games from 21 points to 11 points, 40 mm. balls, and yes, boosters. What is it that you find ironic in Mr. Reisman's description of the madern version of table tennis, as he lived to see it, as a sport played by players who took, and for the most part still take, every advantage of every rule loophole, technological innovation (bicycle glues to speed glues manufactured under the aegis of the ITTF), and now boosters to rubbers already factory boosted that those of us who lived and played during the 1960s and 1970s could not possibly have imagined. Mr. Reisman used none of these. He was like no player I ever knew, and took some getting used to, operating on Reisman time, but was highly intelligent, very funny, a great storyteller, and sentimental for the Manhattan in which he grew up, replaced by soulless corporate skyscrapers and blocky apartments (no color, no juice), and he deeply loved and cared for his second wife Yoshiko. And as far as the state of modern table tennis is as I in 2017 and he in 2012 both through observation and research (Reisman was not at all unaware of what was going on in table tennis during the last forty years of the 20th century and the first twelve years of the 21st), a zealot for his version of table tennis he may have been, and I may be now, but considering the current state of affairs regarding modern table tennis I do not think that Reisman was wrong in his assesment, and I do not think that I am wrong in mine. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:57pm
|
If you look at the title of the documentary of Mr. Reisman, (I used to play at his club in the 70s), I think you will see the irony. Trickery comes in many forms. ☺ As for Mr. Reisman and the other players at his club and at the 72nd Street club, it was a very colorful group that was the heart of the historically important Ping Pong Diplomacy era. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 3:59pm
|
I think everything about Reisman was ironic and I am not one of his admirers. I think his schtick was bad for the sport, even if it was good for him. I hold tnis opinion quite firmly. By the way, one of my strong memories from circa 1972 (pre speed glue era) was a bunch of old guyss bitterly complaining that inverted rubber (only thing I had ever used) had ruined the sport. Guys with the same view as Reisman. (Those old guys then were younger than I am now, ironically). Even by then, the era of Bengtsson and Surbek, it was an anachronistic way to look at the sport. Now, 45 years later what is it? Best if I say no more. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 4:11pm
|
I did not know tnat ETTA had banned vulcanizing glues designed for tires. I did know that ITTF had an early ban on glues using halogensted hydrcarbons as solvents for legit safety reasons, and that around 2000 the speed glues most people used were reasonably safe even though tbey stank. I have to say, I don't miss them. A pain to glue each time you play! And some days it was hard to get it right. In fact I was trying out sevetal alternatives like F1 Desto before the ban. I want to make another comnent about the Japanese training film I posted on the previous page. Notice that they don't miss and tbe ball lands exactly the same place on the table every time. Those two guys were great players! Such control and precision. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 4:22pm
| ... |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 4:59pm
Yeah, it was one of American pong's great ironies that back in '97 Reisman took out the redoubtable Larry Hodges, no slouch with the lumber himself, to become the oldest champion in an open event of any racket sport. And it's kind of ironic, too, that after a couple of English loopers came to Danny Vegh's club back in '64 and introduced an ankle to over head high high throw just barely graze the ball with your D-13 or Tempest forehand loop that none of us could do Shinola against this new and terrifying shot, the likes of which we had never seen. One player copied that loop, and in a matter of weeks rose from C player to A player status. I couldn't master it, but I had some eventual success hitting through the ball hardbat style with my D-13 plastered Cor Du Buy Loop Drive. A few players said eff it, this is getting ridiculous, and quit the game. They were usually the ones who played tennis fairly well, so they had something to fall back on. I soldiered on, literally, enlisting in the Army in April of 1965. Still, there was no escaping inverted. As I have written previously, the best player in Monterey, California, a young dude named Brian Chan, looped quite well both wings with something new and exciting called Sriver. Wow. I can't be too hard on ancient inverted. Except for winning the Ft. Ord singles championship hb/hb, everything else I won while in the Army was with Sriver or Super Sriver. But here it is 2017, and I'm an old guy, and for the last eight years of my playing life a born again Hardbat Man, albeit an unusual one, Played with Leyland, but incorporated a Wang Hao grip and rpb. Weird. And now the only people left to complain about the skullduggerissitude that afflicts the present day game are old guys. You don't think any five year old kid is going to bitch about the way pong's played now, do you? Unless he's 6-time Ohio State Singles Champion Harry Sage's grandson or grnaddaughter, and can't find anybody anywhere to practice with because the little nipper uses grandaddy's old racket. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 11/12/2017 at 10:37pm
It should not be necessary to discourse upon those times before the birth of modern tt (whenever that was) as those in the know, or who think they are in the know about That Pong Which Should Not Be Discussed, as it is hopelessly irrelevant, consisted of nothing but nonstop chiseling and did not contribute jack squat to the sport we are now saddled with, do not necessarily know what they are writing about. Defenders who can attack have existed for almost nine decades. I have posted about their defensive as well as their attacking abilties a number of times to this forum. They did not emerge suddenly from a cocoon or a star in the east presaging the birth of what we have come to know, and some of you have come to admire, as the modern sport of table tennis, replete with dodgy services, springy catapult rubbers, factory boosted rubbers additionally boosted, and, yes indeed, a tiny sprinkling of defenders who can attack with their forehand rubber, if not terribly effectively with their long pipped backhand rubber. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 9:26am
| Berndt, this is not a thread about hadbat TT. Do not attempt further to derail this thread. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 9:33am
|
Maybe it is time to end this thread? Usually when everything necessary has been said, things start going off in a tangent. Let's leave a very interesting thread intact for future additions. OK? Thanks all for a remarkable discussion about modern table tennis history! I learned a lot. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 9:42am
|
Actually I was just about to post this amazing video of WTTC from 1961 and 1963. This was the state of the art of Chinese play (and world play) just before the Cultural Revolution when Chinese players disappeared from the world scene for awhile. Fast play, great fishing, and the amazing lost art of hitting with a traditional penhold backhand. When I was first coming up as a teenager one of my practice partners played in this style. I am still amazed that they didn't get horrific tennis elbow problems, but apparently they didn't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ZLIBdIZ9c" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ZLIBdIZ9c |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 9:52am
|
Also this, which features some early versions of Asian shakehand players (1971). Interesting to compare what has changed since the previous video from ten years earlier. Looks like more spin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejARJYbccFY" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejARJYbccFY |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 9:55am
|
Thanks for a great video of Zhang Zedong. All if my penholder friends used his style of play as a model for their own. He was also instrumental in Ping Pong dimplomacy as he was a favorite of Mao Zedong. There was lots of controversy surrounding his three World Championship wins over Li Furong, with rumors that the match results were pre-arranged. He suffered during the Great Chinese Cultural Revolution. Despite his great accomplishments, his contributions to the game are somewhat by all of the surrounding controversies. The video really demonstrates how much the game has changed. Zhang Zedong so totally dominated the game much as Ma Long does today. Thanks again! |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 9:59am
| The Asian shakehand video was great. Very modern styling with what probably was just Sriver rubber or similar. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 1:31pm
| Notice how high up the paddle Asian shakehanders index fingers were placed then. I thnk that was pretty common. it was sometnig I remember seeing several times from Japanese and Taiwanese players living in the US in the early and mid 70s. I also remember an old Vietnamese guy who used to play at our club years ago with a SH grip like that. It made BH much less efficient. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 1:43pm
|
Over the table backhand looping... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUMTcc9Kl8s&feature=youtu.be&t=124" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUMTcc9Kl8s&feature=youtu.be&t=124 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 3:16pm
When I was a kid, before Waldner and the latter Chinese players, many of the older players I knew considered him to be the greatest player ever. I had never seen him, but I was told of him being penhold, but having the most tremendous back hand slap. Just seen that for the first time thanks to this thread and I can see they were not exaggerating ! ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 3:41pm
Here is a list of the technical and equipment inventions and innovations by the General Adminstration of Sport of China. Extracted from the article " https://www.google.com.hk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiah4bH8bvXAhVLm5QKHVfmAukQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whtyxb.cn%2FCN%2Farticle%2FdownloadArticleFile.do%3FattachType%3DPDF%26id%3D9405&usg=AOvVaw26lwQD9-SNpWVOo_X583Ks" rel="nofollow - Philosophical Analysis of the Technical Progress for China Table Tennis Team " published in 2006.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Table 1 Chinese and foreign inventions and innovations in table tennis techniques Chinese Technical Inventions and Innovations 1. Rong Guotuan's forehand spin and no-spin serve(1958) 2. Rong Guotuan's backhand fast backspin serve(1958) 3. Xu Yinsheng's forehand kick serve(1958) 4. Zhuang Zedong's penhold close-to-table double wing attacking(1961) 5. Li Furong's penhold close-to-table backhand blocking and forehand attacking(1961) 6. Zhang Xielin's penhold long-pips chopping(1961) 7. Wang Zhiliang's shakehand spin and no-spin chopping(1963) 8. Lin Huiqing's long-pips and inverted combination chopping(1965) 9. Liang Geliang's long-pips and inverted twiddling(1971) 10. Liang Geliang's shakehand chopping and attacking(1971) 11. Xu Shaofa's high-toss serve(1973) 12. Diao Wenyuan's backhand side-top/-under serve(1973) 13. Li Zhenshi's forehand "kuai dian"(1973) (TL's note: kuai dian, literally http://www.pingpangwang.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=65018" rel="nofollow - quick point , similar to the flick) 14. Xi Enting's penhold inverted looping plus fast-attack style(1973) 15. Xu Shaofa's "kuai dai" technique(1973) (TL's note: kuai dai, literally quick guide, basically an off-the-bounce drive by borrowing the incoming force) 16. Guo Yuehua's https://youtu.be/Ju9933ToXtI?t=723" rel="nofollow - spin block technique(1973) 17. Li Henan's short-pips "little loop" technique(1973) (essentially a weaker version of the loop with inverted rubber) 18. Ge Xinai's long-pips chopping and attacking with a combination of "tui gong"(1973) (TL's note: the term tui gong is a type of blocking associated with long-pips.) 19. Xie Saike's penhold forehand flat hit against looping(1981) (TL's note: gai da in Chinese, literally cover strike, to flat hit through a slow loop with strong force to overcome the strong spin) 20. Cao Yanhua's backhand high-toss serve(1981) 21. Cai Zhenhua's shakehand anti-spin attacking style(1981) 22. Deng Yaping's shakehand inverted and long-pips attacking style(1993) 23. Wang Tao's inverted and short-pips all-out attacking style(1993) 24. Ding Song's shakehand with chopping and attacking combined(1995) (TL's note: modern defense) 25. Liu Guoliang's reverse penhold backhand(1995) 26. Kong Linghui's shakehand backhand "kuai si" technique(1997) (TL's note: kuai si, literally quick rip, an off-the-bounce backhand loop stroke used on backspin and topspin) 27. Wang Nan's shakehand consecutive backhand quick loop technique(1999) Foreigners Technical Inventions and Innovations 1. UK's hardbat(1902) 2. Hungarian shakehand double-wing attacking(1926) 3. Hungarian shakehand chopping style(1930) 4. US's fingerspin and knucklespin serves(1931) 5. Austrian thick black sponge racket(1951) 6. Japanese penhold single-wing attacking(1952) 7. Japanese inverted/non-inverted yellow sponge racket(1957) 8. Czechoslovakian tomahawk serve(1957) 9. Japanese loopdrive(1960) 10. Austrian antispin racket(1970) 11. Swedish shakehand fast-attack plus looping(1971) 12. Hungarian shakehand double-wing looping(1971) 13. Swedish shakehand serve-grip(1981) 14. Korean penhold looping plus double-wing attacking(1988) 15. Swedish shakehand double-wing loopdriving and attacking plus defense all-round style(1989) 16. German shakehand https://youtu.be/Ok46N-LOZ6A?t=261" rel="nofollow - forehand and backhand wrist-snap punch-flicking technique (1989) 17. French shakehand aggressive attacking style(1991) (TL's note: colloquially known as the reckless/irrational style in China) 18. Croatian shakehand backhand down-the-line flat hit against looping(1998) 19. Austrian shakehand reverse pendulum serve(1999) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Additional info from my own research. Yasaka invented/commercialized the first inverted rubber, Soft Rubber, now known as Original, in 1951. A non-inverted version of Soft Rubber followed in 1953. http://world-tt.com/ps_maker/yasaka/001/page.php" rel="nofollow - http://world-tt.com/ps_maker/yasaka/001/page.php
(So-called "inverted soft rubber" was born in 1951, Yasaka released "Soft Rubber" (now known as "Original") was the first model. With the reputation of strong spin not available in pimpled rubber which was mainstream at the time, as the new technique called loopdrive became popular, users of inverted rubber were mainly in Japan and increased around the world. And in 1969 the high-elasticity, high friction inverted rubber 'Mark V' with higher performance was launched.) Inverted Version  Non-inverted Version   Butterfly first inverted rubbers, https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/historical_records/vol4.html" rel="nofollow - Comet , came in April 1960, shortly followed by https://www.butterfly.co.jp/story/historical_records/vol6.html" rel="nofollow - Allround D13 and Tempest D13, came in June 1960 and 1962, respectively. Comet(inverted on left and non-inverted on right)   Allround D13(inverted) and C4(non-inverted)  Tempest came with a topsheet made of 2 layers - a layer of high-performance rubber on top of a layer of control-oriented rubber. http://amakurareiichi.blog60.fc2.com/blog-category-30.html" rel="nofollow - http://amakurareiichi.blog60.fc2.com/blog-category-30.html   Gergely, Jonyer, and Klampar, known collectively as the three musketeers in China, are credited for the double-wing looping style. Waldner is often credited for the shakehand serve-grip. Gatien and Saive are often credited for the reckless style. A polish player, known as 布熱夫斯基, is commonly credited for the invention of reverse pendulum serve in the late '90s. I tried matching the name against the ITTF database(before it was taken down) but couldn't pinpoint the player. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 3:43pm
|
It seems like there has been some increase in videos from players in the 60s on youtube recently, which is a great thing. The last few I posted I have just discovered in the last few days. I hope anyone who finds videos of that era will post them here. That was an era that was a bit of a void; for a long time now one could find some old Pathe videos of Barna and Bergman and such covering 1930s to mid 1950s; and lots of 70s videos of Bengtsson and Klampar and such (and obviously frome then to now). However the era from about 1960 to about 1969 has been a bit of a historical "dark age" in terms of not being able to find a lot of of film. I hope that changes, it is clearly a really important time in terms of the game changing. I would give a lot to have seen film of, say, Surbek circa 1966 (when he was a kid). Zeio, that is a great find. I had no idea what were the first inverted rubbers generally sold. I learned to play with Yasaka Cobra (green!!) and used that until Mark V became available, which in the US must have been around 1972. Then most players he used that or Sriver. Interesting that the Chinese website doesn't include discovery of speed glue anywhere in there. Again, conventional wisdom has always credited that to Hungarian players, and certainly the former Yugoslavian national team members (both also US national team members) who play at my club think it was discovered by the "&^%^%ing Hungarians" in the late 70s. It is the kind of thing that could have been discovered independently by more than one person. I remember well that back in the 70s whenever I changed rubber (Mark V for me back then), for the next few days I would play really badly. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 4:16pm
|
When I started out as a kid in '95, Sriver and Mark V were still king for grippy rubbers. I saved up and bought my first Mark V in '97. There were a few other choices, but those two were the go-to models. Then, Bryce got released in '97 with a http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78622&PID=972497&title=inventor-of-bryce-has-passed-away#972497" rel="nofollow - ridiculous price tag , and the ESN Tensor opened the floodgates around Y2K. Oh, never noticed the omission of speed glue. There are many versions of the speed glue story, but there is no doubt the Hungarians were the first to use it at the WTTC. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 4:44pm
|
Peter Korbel talks about developing the Chiquita Banana flick.... http://www.bezfrazi.cz/chiquita/ FdT
|
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 4:49pm
|
Hi everyone, Thanks for all of the great new finds! I received a message from Coach Bengtsson's club that he would be happy to answer any questions we may have. I propose that we create a list of questions, interview style, and present it to him. I would be happy to compile the list, but I believe that it has such great historical importance, that possibly one of the senior members of this forum with more historical knowledge than myself, compile and edit the questions. This is a great opportunity for all of us to document and understand the transition into modern table tennis. Let's make the most of it! How would everyone like to proceed especially the forum moderators? |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 4:50pm
Absolutely agree, I have been searching high and low for decent clips of Chester Barnes in 1960's along with Trevor Taylor, Ian Harrison and more, but there does seem to be a void. All I have ever seen is a 20 second cine film clip of Chester Barnes playing against China.
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 7:29pm
|
Hi everyone, I prepared a preliminary set of questions fir Coach Bengtsson. How do they sound to you? We can add, subtract and edit. I suspect he may not be able to answer all of our questions, so I'll leave it up to him to pick and choose. Feedback? 1) You won the singles at the World Table Tennis Championships 1971, 3 World championships, 7 European championships and 65 International championships. Your contribution to the world of table tennis was immortalized when a bronze statue of the legendary Swede was raised in his hometown, Falkenberg, in 2006. What were the circumstances that inspired you to become a professional table tennis player? 2) Which coaches had the greatest impact on the development of your techniques and style? 3) Some on this forum credit you with introducing modern table tennis to the world. Notable was your fast, modern footwork, quick, short and powerful backhand and forehand techniques utilizing whole body torque, and unique services. How and why did you develop this style? 4) Your 1971 World Championship victory over the great Shigeo Itoh shocked the table tennis world. Did you feel entering the tournament that you had a good chance of winning? How did you prepare for the tournament? 5) Would you like to share with us some personal experience of yours with your playing partner throughout the 1970s, the late and great Kjell (The Hammer) Johansson? 6) There was a great rivalry between the Swedish, Hungarian, and Yugoslav teams. Can you describe it to us and how the rivalry if these teams expedited the development of modern table tennis? 7) Can you tell us something about the history of speed glue which elevated the 1970s style of play to a whole new level of modern table tennis techniques in the 1980s? 8) We know that you have been involved with the development of many great players including Jorgen Persson, Jan-Ove Waldner, Peter Karlsson, Erik Lindh, Michael Maze (Denmark), Steffen Fetzner (Germany), Colum Slevin (Ireland). This is an extraordinary list of great champions. It certainly makes you one of the most accomplished coaches in table tennis history. What is it about your coaching style that is was able to develop so many champions? 9) Can you share with us some thoughts about modern table tennis as it was introduced in the 1970s and how it compares to today's standards? 10) Can you tell us about what you are doing today to help develop future great table tennis players? |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 8:52pm
Championship level table tennis from Zhuang Zedong and I presume Li Furong. Makes you wonder why today's wonders need all the crap they need in order to stay competitive and win championships. Well, everybody's got to go sooner or later. There was Chuang, then Hasegawa and Ito, then the one color magicians, then the Hungarian speed gluers, and so forth and so on. Good video. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 8:56pm
|
Every question I would ever think of are already on the list. Good job!!! Perhaps just send him greetings from us!! And a big thank you!! FdT
|
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/13/2017 at 9:02pm
Thanks Fulanodetal. I certainly will convey our appreciation. His wife and business partner Angie Bengtsson has already indicated that they are very interested in this project. I actually hope that this may be the start of an even larger project to document the legend of table table history and their contributions. Can't wait to hear what Coach Bengtsson has to say! |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/14/2017 at 2:23pm
|
regarding questions to Stellan, might want to ask him so many. A simple one would be, how did you train coming up and did you feel like you were playing in a new way and who influenced you or coached you? |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/14/2017 at 2:45pm
Thanks Baal. I forwarded your question as the basic question that we would appreciate answering. I than added my own set and suggested that Coach Bengtsson and Angie Bengtsson can answer any they had time for our skip them all. Hopefully this works and doesn't impinge in their time since I know they are busy. I'm pretty excited since for the last 40 years I've been wondering. ☺ |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/14/2017 at 3:28pm
|
I can't wait to hear what he has to say. He is pretty humble. It is not easy to get him to talk about his accomplishments. |
Posted By: zzzuppp
Date Posted: 11/14/2017 at 7:27pm
|
This is my sort of thread! I have a couple of questions for Stellan - 1) Please talk freely about Ichiro Ogimura, his importance in your life and his greatness as a table tennis player, coach and administrator. 2) How's your record collection these days?  Meanwhile, just before I found this thread, I discovered this video on a Swedish Film Archive, so I've uploaded it to YouTube. Footage of Stellan, Hasse Alser, Kjell Johansson, (and Birgitta Radberg, Eberhard Scholer, Jonyer...) including some training:- (Can't get it to embed properly, but here's the link:) http://youtu.be/OPiRzAur51o" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/OPiRzAur51o |
Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/14/2017 at 8:12pm
Absolutely amazing video. SO much enjoyed it! Thank you!! Please spread the word around to other TT forums that you might visit with a link to this thread. Who knows what other fantastic videos that others may uncover. Sorry. I already sent the questions to Coach Bengtsson but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we have have further opportunities. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/14/2017 at 11:56pm
|
Wow. I lived in Sweden just before that (until 71). It made me incredibly nostalgic! I was one of those little kids. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (also footage of Olof Palme). |
Posted By: king_pong
Date Posted: 11/15/2017 at 12:15am
Don't forget Stellan's 13 Swedish Men's Singles Championships -- a feat not matched even by the great Waldner (who ONLY has 10). That is extremely an impressive record for the small ping-pong nation, not likely to be equaled any time in this generation. ------------- Stiga Infinity VPS (Master): fh/bh - Nittaku Hammond CR max |