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    Posted: 03/09/2021 at 9:11am
Someone told me that all my services are illegal because I rotate my body during the service movement itself, so by definition I will always have something that comes between the ball and the net after it has been tossed, even though I remove my free arm completely, and the contact point is fully visible. I personally find that ridiculous because if that were the case, 99% of all pros (even Boll and Samsonov) are serving illegally because they all rotate their body during the serve. 

My understanding is that when the rules say nothing comes between the ball and the net, basically that is the "current position of the ball at any time", not the entire plane between the ball and the net, in which case only backhand serves are legal, and forehand serves where the body is not rotated (for eg tomahawk serves). 

Is my understanding correct?


Edited by blahness - 03/09/2021 at 9:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 10:48am
Premium tutorials on the serving advanced trickery.
Usually, I only granted this teaching methode for my fellow coaches in Russia only.. It is an advanced knowledge I've gained from my own coaching experience for over 10 years.
Actually it is a black art of the game of table tennis few people aware of, something like the ancient Gallic druids' witchery.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 11:28am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Someone told me that all my services are illegal because I rotate my body during the service movement itself, so by definition I will always have something that comes between the ball and the net after it has been tossed, even though I remove my free arm completely, and the contact point is fully visible. I personally find that ridiculous because if that were the case, 99% of all pros (even Boll and Samsonov) are serving illegally because they all rotate their body during the serve. 

My understanding is that when the rules say nothing comes between the ball and the net, basically that is the "current position of the ball at any time", not the entire plane between the ball and the net, in which case only backhand serves are legal, and forehand serves where the body is not rotated (for eg tomahawk serves). 

Is my understanding correct?
Rotating the body itself is not a problem.  The only issue would be if you're hiding the ball with your body at the start of the service.   The ball must be visible throughout the service.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Someone told me that all my services are illegal because I rotate my body during the service movement itself, so by definition I will always have something that comes between the ball and the net after it has been tossed, even though I remove my free arm completely, and the contact point is fully visible. I personally find that ridiculous because if that were the case, 99% of all pros (even Boll and Samsonov) are serving illegally because they all rotate their body during the serve. 

My understanding is that when the rules say nothing comes between the ball and the net, basically that is the "current position of the ball at any time", not the entire plane between the ball and the net, in which case only backhand serves are legal, and forehand serves where the body is not rotated (for eg tomahawk serves). 

Is my understanding correct?
Rotating the body itself is not a problem.  The only issue would be if you're hiding the ball with your body at the start of the service.   The ball must be visible throughout the service.

The ball is clearly visible at all times, but not the bat (until slightly before the contact point), and my back is still facing the opponent after the ball has been tossed (I rotate a lot to serve). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Someone told me that all my services are illegal because I rotate my body during the service movement itself, so by definition I will always have something that comes between the ball and the net after it has been tossed, even though I remove my free arm completely, and the contact point is fully visible. I personally find that ridiculous because if that were the case, 99% of all pros (even Boll and Samsonov) are serving illegally because they all rotate their body during the serve. 

My understanding is that when the rules say nothing comes between the ball and the net, basically that is the "current position of the ball at any time", not the entire plane between the ball and the net, in which case only backhand serves are legal, and forehand serves where the body is not rotated (for eg tomahawk serves). 

Is my understanding correct?
Rotating the body itself is not a problem.  The only issue would be if you're hiding the ball with your body at the start of the service.   The ball must be visible throughout the service.

The ball is clearly visible at all times, but not the bat (until slightly before the contact point), and my back is still facing the opponent after the ball has been tossed (I rotate a lot to serve). 

Therefore serve is legal.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Someone told me that all my services are illegal because I rotate my body during the service movement itself, so by definition I will always have something that comes between the ball and the net after it has been tossed, even though I remove my free arm completely, and the contact point is fully visible. I personally find that ridiculous because if that were the case, 99% of all pros (even Boll and Samsonov) are serving illegally because they all rotate their body during the serve. 

My understanding is that when the rules say nothing comes between the ball and the net, basically that is the "current position of the ball at any time", not the entire plane between the ball and the net, in which case only backhand serves are legal, and forehand serves where the body is not rotated (for eg tomahawk serves). 

Is my understanding correct?
Rotating the body itself is not a problem.  The only issue would be if you're hiding the ball with your body at the start of the service.   The ball must be visible throughout the service.

The ball is clearly visible at all times, but not the bat (until slightly before the contact point), and my back is still facing the opponent after the ball has been tossed (I rotate a lot to serve). 

Therefore serve is legal.  

Thanks, good to know that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2021 at 7:22pm
any video on your serves? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2021 at 11:41pm
Not necessarily related to blahness' serve, but sometimes I find people who rotate heavily into the serve with a hidden racket pre-contact, accidentally hide the contact against people of the opposite hand. Like as a leftie, if I'm in side side corner, it becomes hard to see. I've had to move my ready position towards the middle of the table against some opponents to have a better view.

Just some food for thought for everyone :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/11/2021 at 1:44am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Not necessarily related to blahness' serve, but sometimes I find people who rotate heavily into the serve with a hidden racket pre-contact, accidentally hide the contact against people of the opposite hand. Like as a leftie, if I'm in side side corner, it becomes hard to see. I've had to move my ready position towards the middle of the table against some opponents to have a better view.

Just some food for thought for everyone :D

Haha it works both ways, we can't see a lot of lefty serves too unless we move to the middle. Actually what I think is, you can still see the contact but just at the very last second, if you're at the middle you have a bit more time to see the bat movement as it's a function of the rotation. 
 
I played a lefty penholder recently and he managed to receive all my serves near perfectly, and I was eating his serves for breakfast Dead Those half long serves to the wide FH are such a nightmare to receive coming from a lefty.  felt like Dan receiving against Par Gerell there, getting completely destroyed lmao..he had his normal sidespin pendulum, the heavy underspin/no spin serve and the hook serve and maybe 4-5 different followthrough patterns. I learnt more about the FH receive getting destroyed than I ever learnt in my whole life haha... 


Edited by blahness - 03/11/2021 at 1:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/11/2021 at 11:07am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Someone told me that all my services are illegal because I rotate my body during the service movement itself, so by definition I will always have something that comes between the ball and the net after it has been tossed


What?

From the 2020 ITTF Rulebook:

2.6.4
From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry

In other words, it's not your rotation that is illegal, its anything coming between the ball (after toss) and the receiver's vision. 

But many servers who like to serve illegally while evading the call from the ref will use their shoulder or chin to block vision on point of contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/11/2021 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Not necessarily related to blahness' serve, but sometimes I find people who rotate heavily into the serve with a hidden racket pre-contact, accidentally hide the contact against people of the opposite hand. Like as a leftie, if I'm in side side corner, it becomes hard to see. I've had to move my ready position towards the middle of the table against some opponents to have a better view.

Just some food for thought for everyone :D

Haha it works both ways, we can't see a lot of lefty serves too unless we move to the middle. Actually what I think is, you can still see the contact but just at the very last second, if you're at the middle you have a bit more time to see the bat movement as it's a function of the rotation. 

Yeah, it definitely works both ways. It's not ideal, but I generally have my toss further from my body so that nothing is in the way at all. Might lose some advantage, but at my level, I'm not pushing for that tiny advantage yet LOL

Rotating into the serve is a must if you want to generate good spin though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/11/2021 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Not necessarily related to blahness' serve, but sometimes I find people who rotate heavily into the serve with a hidden racket pre-contact, accidentally hide the contact against people of the opposite hand. Like as a leftie, if I'm in side side corner, it becomes hard to see. I've had to move my ready position towards the middle of the table against some opponents to have a better view.

Just some food for thought for everyone :D

Haha it works both ways, we can't see a lot of lefty serves too unless we move to the middle. Actually what I think is, you can still see the contact but just at the very last second, if you're at the middle you have a bit more time to see the bat movement as it's a function of the rotation. 

Yeah, it definitely works both ways. It's not ideal, but I generally have my toss further from my body so that nothing is in the way at all. Might lose some advantage, but at my level, I'm not pushing for that tiny advantage yet LOL

Rotating into the serve is a must if you want to generate good spin though.

Yes that is the reason I rotate, not to hide the serve but to generate max spin. The spin is at least halved if I don't do that....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2021 at 7:15am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Someone told me that all my services are illegal because I rotate my body during the service movement itself, so by definition I will always have something that comes between the ball and the net after it has been tossed


What?

From the 2020 ITTF Rulebook:

2.6.4
From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry

In other words, it's not your rotation that is illegal, its anything coming between the ball (after toss) and the receiver's vision. 

But many servers who like to serve illegally while evading the call from the ref will use their shoulder or chin to block vision on point of contact.

Good point on this icontek. Very common for players to unknowingly "almost" serve illegally with either excuse, ignorance or because of the level they play at . At the top it's to gain extra advantage in their jobs to make £/$ obviously. Next level (not to be confused with nextlevel) down can be to gain ranking points etc or against friends at the local club who play for fun to beat them.. Anyway possible. 

When you start playing with say blue coat (uk) umpires many of the "I think it's legal so it's legal" servers get called and fairly so, then they stress and have no way of of serving correctly.

One umpire from this forum actually.. in the UK who umpires British league/grandprix events (when they happened) is both what I would say enforcer and fair. Which is perfect. You know where you are and also what is required. This is the way to be obviously I believe..




Edited by ghostzen - 03/13/2021 at 9:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2021 at 1:56pm
Theres not that much too it.  Toss has to be high enough and straight enough from a sufficiently flat palm.  The ball has to be visible at all times, and ball must be stuck from behind the back white .Iine and from within the side lines.  

That's all.  

You can do a hula dance while the ball is in the air if you want, but is the previous conditions are satisfied the serve is legal.

Edit added.  Umpires are not seated in an optimal position to correctly judge but that's the person you need to satisfy.  So if that person starts calling your serves illegal you have to be able to adjust without melting down (sometimes even if their interpretation of the rules is a bit outside of the usual)..  People may remember when Ding Ning went to pieces in a crucial match.


Edited by Baal - 03/13/2021 at 2:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmugica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2021 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Theres not that much too it.  Toss has to be high enough and straight enough from a sufficiently flat palm.  The ball has to be visible at all times, and ball must be stuck from behind the back white .Iine and from within the side lines.  

Within the side lines? Are you sure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2021 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by cmugica cmugica wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Theres not that much too it.  Toss has to be high enough and straight enough from a sufficiently flat palm.  The ball has to be visible at all times, and ball must be stuck from behind the back white .Iine and from within the side lines.  

Within the side lines? Are you sure?

Embarrassing enough now I'm not sure but I'm too lazy to look it up. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2021 at 1:27am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by cmugica cmugica wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Theres not that much too it.  Toss has to be high enough and straight enough from a sufficiently flat palm.  The ball has to be visible at all times, and ball must be stuck from behind the back white .Iine and from within the side lines.  

Within the side lines? Are you sure?

Embarrassing enough now I'm not sure but I'm too lazy to look it up. Confused
 
Im fairly sure it's legal to serve outside the sidelines as long as it doesn't go beyond the baseline... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeffG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2021 at 11:14pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Someone told me that all my services are illegal because I rotate my body during the service movement itself, so by definition I will always have something that comes between the ball and the net after it has been tossed, even though I remove my free arm completely, and the contact point is fully visible.


Lots of times unethical opponents will just yank your chain to throw you off track.  
My favorite one is where a guy told me before I served that I should throw the ball at least 6 inches. He did not say  *I* was not , but he just said it was the rule. It is very easy to get bent out of shape assuming that he said you are not throwing the ball six inches, which he never did.

Complaining about ball not being in front of the body always works to annoy an unstable opponent because it is so hard tell or enforce even with a very experienced referee and there are always arguments. If you are unethical you can always start this complaint when your are way behind in a the deciding game.  (Kind of similar to not checking your racket BEFORE the match but acting like they are upset that you did not show them the racket after the match is well into progress like 2nd or third game..............I know of many cases where a player complained to umpires when his demands for a rematch (because he did not know the other player had long pips) were laughed at by the winning opponent)
 

I heard this one story, where this player kept bouncing the ball on the floor endlessly before every serve. The umpire refused to do anything since it seems there is nothing in the rules against it. So the opponent started bouncing the ball twice as many times before each serve and you guessed it, the guy who was doing it first completely stopped it but was visibly angry because it had become a part of his serving sequence & was very hard to adjust. LOL

One of my other favorites is when your opponent, who had been serving legally all along, will suddenly serve the most illegally possible serve when it is deuce. If you complain you look like a crybaby.

Probably 20% of players serve off the finger and not from the palm as required. 20% will serve without coming to a complete stop before starting the serve. Another 20% will probably serve more than 10 degrees off  from the vertical with some as much as 60 degrees off LOL .  Probably 10% serve with toss less than 6 inches but a 10% have no idea how small a height 6 inches really is and will complain. 

My other favorites are cleaning the glasses or tie shoelaces every 4 points. 

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I personally find that ridiculous because if that were the case, 99% of all pros (even Boll and Samsonov) are serving illegally because they all rotate their body during the serve.

Check for a match on YouTube between Patrick Baum and I think Aruna Quadri.  The umpire kept faulting every Baum serve. Baum discusses this with umpire but the umpire refuses to relent. Baum  is almost in tears. You can even hear Baum ask the umpire " What do you want me to do ?
Cut my hands off ? " .  Umpire continues to fault each of Baum's serve & Baum gives up and gives up the match   
 


  
   
   


Edited by JeffG - 03/21/2021 at 11:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2021 at 4:14am
Originally posted by JeffG JeffG wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Someone told me that all my services are illegal because I rotate my body during the service movement itself, so by definition I will always have something that comes between the ball and the net after it has been tossed, even though I remove my free arm completely, and the contact point is fully visible.


Lots of times unethical opponents will just yank your chain to throw you off track.  
My favorite one is where a guy told me before I served that I should throw the ball at least 6 inches. He did not say  *I* was not , but he just said it was the rule. It is very easy to get bent out of shape assuming that he said you are not throwing the ball six inches, which he never did.

Complaining about ball not being in front of the body always works to annoy an unstable opponent because it is so hard tell or enforce even with a very experienced referee and there are always arguments. If you are unethical you can always start this complaint when your are way behind in a the deciding game.  (Kind of similar to not checking your racket BEFORE the match but acting like they are upset that you did not show them the racket after the match is well into progress like 2nd or third game..............I know of many cases where a player complained to umpires when his demands for a rematch (because he did not know the other player had long pips) were laughed at by the winning opponent)
 

I heard this one story, where this player kept bouncing the ball on the floor endlessly before every serve. The umpire refused to do anything since it seems there is nothing in the rules against it. So the opponent started bouncing the ball twice as many times before each serve and you guessed it, the guy who was doing it first completely stopped it but was visibly angry because it had become a part of his serving sequence & was very hard to adjust. LOL

One of my other favorites is when your opponent, who had been serving legally all along, will suddenly serve the most illegally possible serve when it is deuce. If you complain you look like a crybaby.

Probably 20% of players serve off the finger and not from the palm as required. 20% will serve without coming to a complete stop before starting the serve. Another 20% will probably serve more than 10 degrees off  from the vertical with some as much as 60 degrees off LOL .  Probably 10% serve with toss less than 6 inches but a 10% have no idea how small a height 6 inches really is and will complain. 

My other favorites are cleaning the glasses or tie shoelaces every 4 points. 

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I personally find that ridiculous because if that were the case, 99% of all pros (even Boll and Samsonov) are serving illegally because they all rotate their body during the serve.

Check for a match on YouTube between Patrick Baum and I think Aruna Quadri.  The umpire kept faulting every Baum serve. Baum discusses this with umpire but the umpire refuses to relent. Baum  is almost in tears. You can even hear Baum ask the umpire " What do you want me to do ?
Cut my hands off ? " .  Umpire continues to fault each of Baum's serve & Baum gives up and gives up the match   
 


  
   
   

I think I remember the Baum/Aruna match you are talking about. Very interesting and indeed strange match. UAE world teams 2010.. was quite unusual match.


Baum is faulted on his high toss forehand serve everytime agreed... BUT from only 1 side... He comments to the umpire I believe about cutting off his head... 😊 When he served that side. Ended up getting a yellow then yellow red. Even the German coach JR got involved at one stage. 

If it's this match... Baum wins it and Infact does extremely well to hold his composure and keep his (no pun intended)... Head... 😊 



 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeffG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2021 at 5:06am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

[QUOTE=JeffG][QUOTE=blahness]
I think I remember the Baum/Aruna match you are talking about. Very interesting and indeed strange match. UAE world teams 2010.. was quite unusual match.


Baum is faulted on his high toss forehand serve everytime agreed... BUT from only 1 side... He comments to the umpire I believe about cutting off his head... 😊 When he served that side. Ended up getting a yellow then yellow red. Even the German coach JR got involved at one stage. 

If it's this match... Baum wins it and Infact does extremely well to hold his composure and keep his (no pun intended)... Head... 😊 
 

You are obviously correct about this match. But I am sure of watching a match where the player eventually gives up and loses. It may be or may not be Baum with same umpire or same umpire in another match with another player. I am pretty sure of the player losing in frustration. Mentally I have these two matches mixed up. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2021 at 5:20am
Originally posted by JeffG JeffG wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

[QUOTE=JeffG][QUOTE=blahness]
I think I remember the Baum/Aruna match you are talking about. Very interesting and indeed strange match. UAE world teams 2010.. was quite unusual match.


Baum is faulted on his high toss forehand serve everytime agreed... BUT from only 1 side... He comments to the umpire I believe about cutting off his head... 😊 When he served that side. Ended up getting a yellow then yellow red. Even the German coach JR got involved at one stage. 

If it's this match... Baum wins it and Infact does extremely well to hold his composure and keep his (no pun intended)... Head... 😊 
 

You are obviously correct about this match. But I am sure of watching a match where the player eventually gives up and loses. It may be or may not be Baum with same umpire or same umpire in another match with another player. I am pretty sure of the player losing in frustration. Mentally I have these two matches mixed up. 





When you mentioned it I actually thought Baum straight off as well. There's been 2 or 3 times I believe. The other one that springs to mind is Bastein Steger. But this Baun/Aruna has to be one of the most strangest as one side fine... One side not... You would think faults both sides?.

Cheers
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