Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  Help Desk Help Desk  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Some more updates on Poly Balls issue
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Some more updates on Poly Balls issue

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
igorponger View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/29/2006
Location: Everywhere
Status: Offline
Points: 2960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Some more updates on Poly Balls issue
    Posted: 10/09/2015 at 10:42am
ITTF EC meeting of May 3, 2015.

    11. Plastic ball update
    The Executive Committee invited representatives of DHS to give update on plastic balls" quality, quantity and price, the main issues raised by the Athletes Commission.
    Mr. Lou reported that:
     During the one-year period since February 2014 balls broke easier and the quality was not good enough due to instability of the raw material.   The company recently contracted new raw material supplier; this caused temporary shortage on stocks and higher price. As soon as number of balls increases on market, the price will be lower.
     In the meantime DHS is also
    looking for reusable material, which
    would further improve the quality.
     Most of the manufacturers are now using the “relaxed” tolerance of the Technical Leaflet T3 until it is disallowed (January 2016).   It was requested to give in the future more time for manufacturers to meet new requirements.
     Durability is a main issue and
    cannot be tested so quickly with the
    new raw material, but it seems it can be improved quickly.
    Page 6
    Page 6
     Price would go down once there are more manufacturers and also depends on the price of the raw material.

    At the WTTC in Suzhou quality was not an issue at all, these balls were hand-selected.
     Athletes Commission Chairman called for changes in T3 to get better balls and more constant bounce but Mr.Lou confirmed that the current requirements in TL are OK for them and that they will send input to the Equipment Committee and EC in case they feel change is needed.
     DHS wants to collect information from players as they have different opinions.
     Mr Lou invited the AC Chairman to visit their factory.
    The Executive Committee thanked the DHS representatives for being ready to give an update and to answer questions.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
igorponger View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/29/2006
Location: Everywhere
Status: Offline
Points: 2960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2015 at 11:04am
very helpful knowledge for me

-- Keep your hand away from the older plastic as marked 2014 production date.   The raw material unstable.

-- Dont purchase from Taobao. They all would distribute the older plastic products, poor quality.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2015 at 11:05am
For once a very useful post from Igorponger.

Nittaku and the seamless people can make polyballs that meet January 2016 standards now (and DHS made the decision a long time ago to pull out of the consortium with XSF and Palio, too bad for them).  So why give DHS and DF more time to do it?  SO they can continue to sell their warehouses of crappy balls they have made already ---  at top prices? 

ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!! 

And this stuck out:  "Athletes Commission Chairman called for changes in T3 to get better balls and more constant bounce but Mr.Lou confirmed that the current requirements in TL are OK for them and that they will send input to the Equipment Committee and EC in case they feel change is needed."

ITTF has a long history of completely dismissing the athlete's point of view, and yet the top players probably know best how these things actually perform.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2015 at 11:10am
Prices will never go down.  The increased price of the balls has been a feature not a bug all along.
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 7097
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2015 at 12:12am
As far as I know, there was never any consortium between DHS, XSF and Palio, DHS and Zhang Huilun were probably in a partnership or with the latter hired as a consultant to formulate the seamless ball but then some time later Zhang Huilun who owns the patent felt that his cut of the deal was not to his liking, jumped ship and struck up a new partnership with XSF and Palio.

The best-case scenario for us is to have ITTF dump DHS and sign a new contract with XSF/Palio and/or Nittaku as the official ball supplier after the current deal with DHS ends next year after Olympics?  DHS is perhaps using some leverage to renew that deal now.  It is clear they have trouble solving the durability and consistency of cellulose acetate.  Time is running low and all they can do is request(read demand) an extension however they can to capitalize as much as possible on those little suckers already in existence, when "most manufacturers are now using relaxed tolerance" are in reality only DHS/DFish.  The raw material price is more like a smokescreen to hide the fact that the terrible yield rate is wasting them so much money that they have to shift that on to none other than the end-users.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
haggisv View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar
Dark Knight

Joined: 06/28/2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4954
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2015 at 3:37am
Since DHS is so big and has been supplying most of the world market with balls in the past, I think they're probably needed, as the others won't be able to keep up with demand.


Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX
Tenergy Alternatives | My TT Articles
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2015 at 11:09am
Haggis, proof is in the pudding as they say.  As yet, DHS have not been able to make any good plastic balls, so their previous record of making celluloid ones is almost irrelevant.  Also, they were never the world's largest producer of balls and there is no reason to believe that other factories cannot scale up their current production of plastic.  The fact is, you need a good process and material and design to begin with and DHS does not have one at present.  As for the past, in China Double Fish was far more prevalent at grass roots than DHS.

DHS position in the ball market has had a lot to do with their sweetheart deal with ITTF.  But if they can't make a decent plastic ball after all this time, what does it say?  Nothing good.   
Back to Top
TT newbie View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/25/2011
Location: Far Far Away
Status: Offline
Points: 1226
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2015 at 11:38am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Prices will never go down.  The increased price of the balls has been a feature not a bug all along.
Manufacturers lower the durability and raise the prices dramatically, and they are totally supported by the rules.
I call this a dictatorship. 
Back to Top
wturber View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/28/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3860
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2015 at 11:47am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Prices will never go down.  The increased price of the balls has been a feature not a bug all along.
Manufacturers lower the durability and raise the prices dramatically, and they are totally supported by the rules.
I call this a dictatorship. 

With the exception being the seamless ball that can be had at prices well below the $2/ball typical of high quality celluloid balls.  Also, these balls are more durable, so it should be easier to meet demand with this kind of ball since demand would be lower than with celluloid.
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Gambler Zebra Classic w/ Dr. Evil
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2015 at 12:06pm
Yes, seamless are very good, which I was pointing out from the start, at the beginning as almost a lone voice in the wilderness.  DHS at the origin was in a consortium with XSF and Palio to make seamless balls (or if not with XSF, in any case their plan was to make seamless balls, but my understanding is that there was a joint venture of some sort).  Something happened, maybe a fight over patents and IP and such.  For whatever reason (and it actually doesn't matter) DHS went on their own and decided to try to make a plastic ball basically the same procedures they used to make celluloid balls.  The results are not good (bad bounce, bad durability, bad price), but they had the deal with ITTF and they had street cred, so other companies (for a long time EVERY European company) started getting their balls re-labeled from DHS.  For a long time, and apparently still, DHS has been unable to make a ball that meets January 2016 requirements.  I am not sure if this is true or not for DF.  Here is the writing on the wall --- Joola and Tibhar are now marketing seamless balls that do meet January 2016 specs (as XSF balls have been doing for well over a year now).  Additional writing on the wall -- DHS is crying to ITTF that they need more time, even though Nittaku, XSF/Palio, and Weener can make balls that do make those guidelines.  More writing on the wall -- ETTC used Nittaku Japan.  And sad thing is, DHS will probably get  their reprieve.  I am not sure it is a dictatorship, but may be the kind of corruption that  runs rampant in international sports federations.

 
Back to Top
The Canadian Bacon View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 08/29/2015
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1323
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2015 at 3:22pm
For consistency there are only two choices IMHO, XSF seamless and Bty G 40+ seamed.
Back to Top
wturber View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/28/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3860
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by The Canadian Bacon The Canadian Bacon wrote:

For consistency there are only two choices IMHO, XSF seamless and Bty G 40+ seamed.

Have you tried the Nittaku NP40+?  I think it is very consistent even though it is not my favorite ball for play with hardbat.

Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Gambler Zebra Classic w/ Dr. Evil
Back to Top
Mickael View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/30/2011
Location: World
Status: Offline
Points: 794
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mickael Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 4:57pm
Well i said it 8 months ago, they are 2 balls that meet high bouce of the ittf original leaflet : nittaku premium and xsf seamless and now this g40+ butterfly. Any rebranding of these is just fine. Dhs and its rebrandings would worsen your game and undermine your level and they should be banned by January 2016, if this new ittf president is a clean dude not like the previous one.
Apolonia ZLC ST
Tenergy 05 Max FH
Tenergy 05 Max BH
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 5:02pm
Dan at Table Tennis Daily has a nice review of the G40+ ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=Ix6z-NsTIPI

I am looking forward to getting some, I think I will like them.  The way he describes them is very much like the way I would describe NP40+ so I am optimistic.
Back to Top
berndt_mann View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/02/2015
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 1719
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 5:02pm
Ah Jay, you should have been around during the Barna 3-crown era.  Now that was a ball among balls.  Not only could you chop with pop that sucker, if you Hocked it right it flew straight and true like a passenger pigeon from St. Louie to Show Low.
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber
Back to Top
APW46 View Drop Down
Assistant Moderator
Assistant Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 02/02/2009
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3331
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Ah Jay, you should have been around during the Barna 3-crown era.  Now that was a ball among balls.  Not only could you chop with pop that sucker, if you Hocked it right it flew straight and true like a passenger pigeon from St. Louie to Show Low.
I was, they were truly awful.
The Older I get, The better I was.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

As far as I know, there was never any consortium between DHS, XSF and Palio, DHS and Zhang Huilun were probably in a partnership or with the latter hired as a consultant to formulate the seamless ball but then some time later Zhang Huilun who owns the patent felt that his cut of the deal was not to his liking, jumped ship and struck up a new partnership with XSF and Palio.

The best-case scenario for us is to have ITTF dump DHS and sign a new contract with XSF/Palio and/or Nittaku as the official ball supplier after the current deal with DHS ends next year after Olympics?  DHS is perhaps using some leverage to renew that deal now.  It is clear they have trouble solving the durability and consistency of cellulose acetate.  Time is running low and all they can do is request(read demand) an extension however they can to capitalize as much as possible on those little suckers already in existence, when "most manufacturers are now using relaxed tolerance" are in reality only DHS/DFish.  The raw material price is more like a smokescreen to hide the fact that the terrible yield rate is wasting them so much money that they have to shift that on to none other than the end-users.


Certainly Joola, Tibhar and others see the problems and are selling seamless balls now (along with their not so good Chinese seamed balls).  Butterfly now has their G40+ and they have also had a close relationship with ITTF over the years.  Nittaku NP40+ is no longer hard to buy, I see them in stock from all of the vendors I checked (Paddle Palace, Megaspin, TT-Japan, Contra.de), and this suggests that they have solved their initial production problems (and also have a long history with ITTF).  I figured that was just a matter of time before Nittaku would get that straightened out.

It will be interesting to see how much pull DHS still has.  The ITTF is not in a position where they are forced to allow a relaxed tolerance since it is clear that other companies can make balls that work.  One hopes that ITTF is actually disgusted with DHS?  Maybe DHS is in a bind?
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Ah Jay, you should have been around during the Barna 3-crown era.  Now that was a ball among balls.  Not only could you chop with pop that sucker, if you Hocked it right it flew straight and true like a passenger pigeon from St. Louie to Show Low.
I was, they were truly awful.


Halex level awful.
Back to Top
berndt_mann View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/02/2015
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 1719
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Ah Jay, you should have been around during the Barna 3-crown era.  Now that was a ball among balls.  Not only could you chop with pop that sucker, if you Hocked it right it flew straight and true like a passenger pigeon from St. Louie to Show Low.
I was, they were truly awful.


Halex level awful.


Your member profiles do not indicate your ages, Baal and APW46, but believe it or not there was a time in the early 1960s when Dunlop Barna 3-crowns were highly regarded among table tennis cognoscenti, though Schildkrots were the norm in Cleveland because you could get them at Blepp-Coombs and Newman-Stern sporting goods stores.  The Hanno 3-stars were the creme de la creme.

You are right about the Halexes however.  They were easily breakable, didn't take topspin, backspin or even sidespin well and were only used on those rare occasions when no other balls were available.


Edited by berndt_mann - 10/11/2015 at 5:42pm
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber
Back to Top
mts388 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 03/21/2014
Location: Sonora CA
Status: Offline
Points: 2243
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Ah Jay, you should have been around during the Barna 3-crown era.  Now that was a ball among balls.  Not only could you chop with pop that sucker, if you Hocked it right it flew straight and true like a passenger pigeon from St. Louie to Show Low.
I was, they were truly awful.


You were in Show Low.  I've been there, nice placeTongue  Didn't see any pigeons though.
Back to Top
berndt_mann View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/02/2015
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 1719
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 7:46pm
Nope, have never been to Show Low; just used the name for my post because it sounds colorful.  I have been to Tombstone, however.  A tourist trap, but a fun sort of tourist trap.  Before the shootout near the OK Corral commenced, one of the actors playing the cowboys against the Earps and Doc Holliday said to his podner "I hate them Earps.  They call us rustlers, cattle thieves, and train and stage robbers."  To which his buddy replied, puzzled, "well, ain't we?"

Back in the early '60, however, Mike, I did smash a Barna 3-crown so far off the table and through an open window of our second floor loft of a Cleveland club that I suspect it came to rest somewhere in the vicinity of Show Low.  Even though back then I had never heard of Show Low, and thought the Grand Canyon was located somewhere in Colorado.  BTW, I was lying about the St. Louie and the passenger pigeon part.

Well, maybe that's too harsh.  Let's just say exaggerating a little bit.


Edited by berndt_mann - 10/11/2015 at 7:50pm
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber
Back to Top
JimT View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/26/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14594
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 9:21pm
I would be very surprised if ITTF breaks their sweetheart deal with DHS. After all ITTF has consistently demonstrated that to them it is way more important to get more sponsorship money or even indirect bribes in the form of various junkets for bureaucrats, than to improve the actual state of the sport, to comply with logic or decency.
Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2015 at 9:26pm
Unless other companies can pay more....
Back to Top
wturber View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/28/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3860
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2015 at 2:31am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

Ah Jay, you should have been around during the Barna 3-crown era.  Now that was a ball among balls.  Not only could you chop with pop that sucker, if you Hocked it right it flew straight and true like a passenger pigeon from St. Louie to Show Low.

I heard that they were like rocks.  Surely an exaggeration, but most reports have been pretty negative.
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Gambler Zebra Classic w/ Dr. Evil
Back to Top
Tassie52 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/09/2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1318
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2015 at 7:45am
I treasured my Barna 3 Crowns.  Why?  I was a high school student with no income.  Barnas were virtually indestructible.  They were expensive, but I was known to liberate* a ball or two and then play on for months without having to find money for replacements.

* They say confession is good for the soul.  And if anyone I knicked a ball off in the 70s is reading, I'll gladly replace with a six pack of XSFs.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2015 at 9:47pm
About the time I started to get serious, in the early 1970s, the Nittaku 3* was already the most prized ball in the area where I played.  Their 38 mm ball was superb, durable, round, pretty much perfect.  We also used Stiga balls where I played in the US, and of course in Sweden where I first started I don't recall ever seeing anything else.  They were excellent too. Occasionally people would show up in the US with Halex or Barnas (I grew up in a university town so players would arrive from far away with interesting ping pong stuff).  The Barna and Halex weren't sold where I grew and if not for people occasionally bringing them from who knows where, I would have been blissfully unaware that bad balls actually existed.  Don't think I ever saw a Schildkrott ball.

 
Back to Top
berndt_mann View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/02/2015
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 1719
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2015 at 10:00pm
The Nittaku 3-star Premium balls from Japan were the best 38 mm. balls I ever played with, even better than the Barna 3-crowns,Smile  The balls were no problem; it was the widespread use of speed glues that killed the good old 38 mm. It was an aspirin tablet when gloop killed by a well-trained speed glooper.  Curse you, well-trained speed gloopers.  You are all responsible for the chaotic situation TT finds itself in today, though manufacturers unheard of fifteen years ago will sing your praises to a beneficent and approving ITTF.


Edited by berndt_mann - 10/13/2015 at 12:13am
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2020 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.