Taking ball at the highest point?

Near the table, you would try to hit/loop at the top of the bounce. It is very difficult to hit/loop on the rise near the table, much easier to push or block on the rise. Even looping a chop, you would hit it just after the top of the bounce.  

Further away from the table, you are usually hitting the ball when it is dropping.

reflecx wrote: Near the table, you would try to hit/loop at the top of the bounce. It is very difficult to hit/loop on the rise near the table, much easier to push or block on the rise. Even looping a chop, you would hit it just after the top of the bounce.   Further away from the table, you are usually hitting the ball when it is dropping.

I see: you should aim to loop a chop after the top of the bounce? 

If you are back from the table and you are able to hit the ball at the top of the bounce or earlier should you should nevertheless wait for it to drop?  

I'm a little confused because in the video yo posted it appears that world class players always strive to hit the ball as early as practically possible except against chop where they appear to hit the ball at the top of the bounce.

Edited by DDreamer - 04/17/2013 at 10:03pm

when I'm away from the table I played with the same mindset, 'hit the ball at top of the bounce' although most of the ball will drop.

I've additional questions related to topic.

1. When will you hit balls with underspin? (asked by others, need further clarification)
2. When will you hit balls of opponents using pimples rubbers? Particularly for warming up counterstroke. I realised I should do upward stroke but I still didn't get the timing. My coach said I should hit earlier after bounce but I found it was easier to hit on the drop. Nevertheless, I can't get consistency for both timing.


Edited by mr.ishaq - 04/17/2013 at 11:21pm

DDreamer wrote: reflecx wrote: Near the table, you would try to hit/loop at the top of the bounce. It is very difficult to hit/loop on the rise near the table, much easier to push or block on the rise. Even looping a chop, you would hit it just after the top of the bounce.   Further away from the table, you are usually hitting the ball when it is dropping. I see: you should aim to loop a chop after the top of the bounce?  If you are back from the table and you are able to hit the ball at the top of the bounce or earlier should you should nevertheless wait for it to drop?   I'm a little confused because in the video yo posted it appears that world class players always strive to hit the ball as early as practically possible except against chop where they appear to hit the ball at the top of the bounce.

Looping backspin

 

Away from table, 90% of the loops are on the drop.

Hi guys. Thanks again. I think this topic will be very useful. Firstly I wanna talk about my setup. I have tried many setups. Some was very fast and stiff. But I had bad times holding ball on the table and backhand service receivings. I have used Clipper CR + Aurus Soft + Tenergy 05 for example. Yes it is very good setup, fast, very spiny and heavy. With Inf Al+ Vega Asia+Europe, I am very confident, it is slow but reliable for a less skilled player. And I have just been recovered EJ virüs :D So I think less skilled players like me shouldnt use fast blades or rubers. Even it is so late, but I have understood this.

 

 Some additional techniques which I tried:

 

1-      When I tried to take ball early, my balls went out the table.

2-      When I tried to take ball lately, my balls went into the net.

3-      Best way suits my game is taking ball at the top. But I am still taking some service balls under table (bad addiction)

DDreamer wrote: In the loop vs chop clips they are hitting the ball after the top of the bounce? If you are back from the table and you are able to hit the ball at the top of the bounce or earlier should you should nevertheless wait for it to drop?

reflecx wrote: DDreamer wrote: In the loop vs chop clips they are hitting the ball after the top of the bounce? If you are back from the table and you are able to hit the ball at the top of the bounce or earlier should you should nevertheless wait for it to drop?   Yes, in the loop vs chop clips they are hitting the ball after the top of the bounce. The reason why you are back from the table is to give yourself more time. If you hit at the top of the bounce, it gives you less time to react and swing. Of course it also gives your opponent less time to react to your shot. Most pros back away from the table to loop.

Previously I had incorrectly always thought it was a loop. It's been an edifying day. 

 

NA1NSXR wrote:   That is not a loop.  You're not generating force primarily from grazing the ball in that case.

How is it not a loop? For simplicity, let's assume we do a loop where the bat angle is the same as our motion. It could be different, it doesn't matter. The left diagram shows a loop where the ball is at the top of the bounce, while the right shows one where the ball is rising. What's the difference?

The amount of spin, grazing, whatever, is the same.

Going back to the early days of loop, there were big distinctions between a 'looped' ball and a flat hit, the purpose of a loop being to force a high return, not to put the ball past a player, that is where the flat hit came in. As rubbers got faster, and sp/glue came on the scene, loopdriving became more prevalent, at first contacted much later than today, and made far easier to time consistently with the introduction of the 40mm ball. Top players rarely flat hit, unless its a high/close to the net/easy ball, its too inconsistent. But to old gits like me anything with topspin is a loop.

NA1NSXR wrote: reflecx wrote:   NA1NSXR wrote: You can't loop a ball on the rise. Yes, you can. To counterloop a topspin ball on the rise, you have to close your bat close to parallel to the table. You swing will also be close to horizontal. The exact angles will depend on the amount of spin the ball is carrying and your own force. Not an easy stroke for amateurs. That is not a loop.  You're not generating force primarily from grazing the ball in that case.

Why do you care about force as opposed to "spin"?  I think the primary component of the loop is "topspin" and in general, I prefer the term "topspin" to "loop", so that the focus is on ball quality rather than stroke mechanics.

DDreamer wrote: reflecx wrote: Most of ZJK's loops are after the top of the bounce, a few are at the top of the bounce. It is easier loop after the top of the bounce as you know where the ball has bounced to. If you try to loop at the top of the bounce, you have to make an educated guess on how high and far the ball will bounce. The trajectory of the ball is determined by your opponent, if you are at a certain distance from the table, you can't really control whether you're going to hit the ball on the rise, at the top, or on the drop. What you can control is how far from the table you want to play.  I must study that Zhang Jike clip more closely as it sure looks like he is taking it at the top.

Speedplay wrote: @jt99sf My comment wasn't a personal remark against you, only that I find it funny when a technical thread turns into yet another equipment thread. Also, I would think his current set up is fast enough, so a better advice, according to me, would be to tell him to include his waist, hips and legs in his strokes, cause if he finds his current setup to slow, then he is most likely just using his arm. Might even be that the equipment is to fast for him to control, so he is forced to hold back with his strokes to make them land. This is often the case with newer players and I know this because it happened to me when I was new and using a stupidly fast combination.

Edited by jt99sf - 04/18/2013 at 11:32am

DDreamer wrote: reflecx wrote: <span style="line-height: 1.3;">Most of ZJK's loops are after the top of the bounce, a few are at the top of the bounce. It is easier loop after the top of the bounce as you know where the ball has bounced to. If you try to loop at the top of the bounce, you have to make an educated guess on how high and far the ball will bounce.</span> The trajectory of the ball is determined by your opponent, if you are at a certain distance from the table, you can't really control whether you're going to hit the ball on the rise, at the top, or on the drop. What you can control is how far from the table you want to play. Thanks again for your help - I'm learning quite a bit. I must study that Zhang Jike clip more closely as it sure looks like he is taking it at the top. Regarding knowing where the top of the bounce is: Wouldn't it be fairly easy for an experienced player know where the top of the bounce is? When you are back from the table and have enough time can't you have some choice as to when you contact the ball - either via footwork or just striking the ball a little later or earlier? If this is the case should one still strive to hit the ball after the top of the bounce?

What I've been told by a couple of professionals, plus Stellan, is that the preferred contact point for almost all professional players is the top of the bounce. That includes against both top spin and under spin. There are times when it's tactically useful to loop a ball early in the bounce, when you want to quickly send the ball back (usually because your opponent is close to the table and doesn't have time to react). There are also times when you're forced to loop a ball after the top of the bounce, such as with a half-long serve. It's less common to intentionally plan to loop after the top but it does come up occasionally, such as when you want to slow down the pace but ramp up the spin. Looking at videos of pros, you have to assume that their decisions to hit late, early, or on top are usually tactical decisions rather than limitations in their technique.

The general advantage of looping at the top of the bounce is you can get the most drive (speed and spin) with the least risk. Looping heavy chop early is particularly challenging. Hitting any ball late isn't usually harder but it is less powerful. Still, against blockers and close-to-the-table hitters, slower spiny loops (such as from looping after the bounce) can be effective, at least at the amateur level.

When we train at the Stellan camps, most of the time we are told to aim for the top of the bounce. However, there are times where we specifically drill the other times. One simple drill is to loop FH against a block. Loop the first two balls quick off the bounce, then two at the top of the bounce, and then two late, after the top. Then you go back to the top, then early again. The idea is to give you a feel for the different shots.

DDreamer wrote: In the loop vs chop clips they are hitting the ball after the top of the bounce? If you are back from the table and you are able to hit the ball at the top of the bounce or earlier should you should nevertheless wait for it to drop?