Taking ball at the highest point?

reflecx wrote: The reason why you are back from the table is to give yourself more time. If you hit at the top of the bounce, it gives you less time to react and swing. Of course it also gives your opponent less time to react to your shot. Most pros back away from the table to loop. Pros that prefer to stay near the table are more of the blocker type (eg Oh Sang Eun).

I agree with you. Loop backspin just slightly after the peak of the bounce. Reason being it is less spinny compared to the top of the bounce and you can put more time into the backswing, where you can put more weight onto the right foot (for a right-hander) by bending the knee more and going lower and rotating the torso backwards more，so as to generate more power to overcome the backspin.

A brushing block over or near the table against a loop is a textbook shot. This shot requires you to contact the ball before the top of the bounce. The heavier the incoming topspin, the earlier contact needs to be. Counterlooping close to the table is also a textbook shot. CNT players do it all the time against weaker opponents. Again the requirements are you have to contact the ball before the top of the bounce and keep your center of gravity low.

NA1NSXR wrote: NextLevel wrote: NA1NSXR wrote: reflecx wrote:   NA1NSXR wrote: You can't loop a ball on the rise. Yes, you can. To counterloop a topspin ball on the rise, you have to close your bat close to parallel to the table. You swing will also be close to horizontal. The exact angles will depend on the amount of spin the ball is carrying and your own force. Not an easy stroke for amateurs. That is not a loop.  You're not generating force primarily from grazing the ball in that case. Why do you care about force as opposed to "spin"?  I think the primary component of the loop is "topspin" and in general, I prefer the term "topspin" to "loop", so that the focus is on ball quality rather than stroke mechanics. Because even flat hits have topspin.  By using the word hit/drive/loop you differentiate between 3 distinctive strokes which in the case of this thread, actually completely determines where you should take the ball.  I don't even really care on continuing with this thread, I've been playing since the 90's and on this forum since 2003 and actually forced myself off because of the tendency of conversations on this forum to go this way.  I'm perfectly clear on this subject for myself and I thought I would contribute.  Whether or not people want to take it or not is not really something I care to stress over too much.  If you want to play word games or "loop" balls before the top of the bounce be my guest.

I think one problem is that you are assuming that one can't get incredible amounts of topspin taking the ball early.  In my experience, that is not true, especially if the ball comes off the table enough to make a full stroke.  It's all about the brushing motion.  The brushing motion that creates topspin can be created by going over the ball or upwards behind the ball.  The brushing motion that creates chop can be done by going downwards on the ball or underneath the ball.

I don't find the names of the strokes that important - just their effectiveness when playing.  I do agree however that for most people, it is easier to generate the most spin by taking the ball after the peak of the bounce because of more time to set up and a larger upward stroke.

Flat hits can have topspin, but they are not spin oriented strokes - they are supposed to be hit mostly with the ball on the center on the paddle.  They have spin primarily because of how inverted grips the ball.

Drives are speed oriented strokes.  There are topspin drives or smashes (flat hit drives).  I consider a topspin drive to be a loop, but other people do not.

Some of the people who debate you have been playing in different capacities just as long as you have.  One of the reasons I respect a forumer (who shall remain unnamed for now) on this site is that he rarely ever brings his rating into the discussion when debating things - he just asks questions and acts as if he is learning something new when he thinks other people are saying nonsense.


Edited by NextLevel - 04/19/2013 at 6:34am

power7 wrote: Players should be aware that when hitting a topspin ball with inverted rubber.  So no matter how you hit the ball, because of spin inversion, you will have topspin on the return ball.

Come again? Pretty sure this is a mistake on your part, cause surely you do know that you can chop back a loop, using inverted, and create backspin instead of topspin?

NextLevel wrote: Speedplay wrote: power7 wrote: Players should be aware that when hitting a topspin ball with inverted rubber.  So no matter how you hit the ball, because of spin inversion, you will have topspin on the return ball. Come again? Pretty sure this is a mistake on your part, cause surely you do know that you can chop back a loop, using inverted, and create backspin instead of topspin?   Every surface has a limit on the amount of topspin that can be inverted and the stroke matters as well, but power7 is generally saying the truth.

So, you are saying that if someone loops at me and i chop it back, with inverted, the ball will still have topspin? Cause, then we have very different experience of the game...

don't worry about all this other stuff the person just needs ti hit the ball at the top of the bounce reguardless

Edited by smackman - 04/19/2013 at 8:46pm

power7 wrote: Speedplay wrote: power7 wrote: Players should be aware that when hitting a topspin ball with inverted rubber.  So no matter how you hit the ball, because of spin inversion, you will have topspin on the return ball. Come again? Pretty sure this is a mistake on your part, cause surely you do know that you can chop back a loop, using inverted, and create backspin instead of topspin? I was addressing the issue being discuss earlier about driving and looping topspin balls.  There seems to be confusion about how much "rubbing" is needed to creating topspin. When returning high quality topspin balls, not much is really needed to return it will a loop-like arc, you can stand close to the table and just block, mimic the motion of the greatest loop ever, and it will look like a loop....great way to fake an opponent on how much spin is on the returning ball.   The point being a high quality loop has a lot of topspin on it, that even spin inversion from a simple block using good quality inverted rubber will have a lot of topspin on it. Chopping a topspin ball off the table are all usually done below table level and I'll leave it at that...so not to confuse the poor guy trying to learn the game.

I thought it was something like that, but reacted to the comment about balls always having some topspin on them. Since you said no matter how you hit them. I do agree with your statement now that you have cleared things up and also, it's almost impossible to hit a no spin ball with a regular sheet of inverted.

winterdrops wrote: Hi, I have some problems while taking ball. As far as my observations It is advised to take ball at the highest point. But some players told me that I should wait the ball to loose some of its spin and power. Although I play as a beginner-intermediate player, pro players I have watched on youtube often take the ball very low height .  What would you say me about this? Thanks.

winterdrops wrote: Please watch this. A chinese coach explains that you should hit the ball at the highest point close to tabl, near and mid distance you should hit the ball early descending position. It may be useful for the topic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ddVkXRh1UeY#t=855s

Just to note, the coach didn't say you "must". He is just mentioning how Ma Long does it.

Generally if you are close, you will hit it on the rise or at the highest point.
If you are further back, you will let the ball dip, but generally Chinese style don't let it dip a lot whereby Euro style lets it dip very low.

NextLevel wrote: NA1NSXR wrote: NextLevel wrote: NA1NSXR wrote: reflecx wrote:   NA1NSXR wrote: You can't loop a ball on the rise. Yes, you can. To counterloop a topspin ball on the rise, you have to close your bat close to parallel to the table. You swing will also be close to horizontal. The exact angles will depend on the amount of spin the ball is carrying and your own force. Not an easy stroke for amateurs. That is not a loop.  You're not generating force primarily from grazing the ball in that case. Why do you care about force as opposed to "spin"?  I think the primary component of the loop is "topspin" and in general, I prefer the term "topspin" to "loop", so that the focus is on ball quality rather than stroke mechanics. Because even flat hits have topspin.  By using the word hit/drive/loop you differentiate between 3 distinctive strokes which in the case of this thread, actually completely determines where you should take the ball.  I don't even really care on continuing with this thread, I've been playing since the 90's and on this forum since 2003 and actually forced myself off because of the tendency of conversations on this forum to go this way.  I'm perfectly clear on this subject for myself and I thought I would contribute.  Whether or not people want to take it or not is not really something I care to stress over too much.  If you want to play word games or "loop" balls before the top of the bounce be my guest. I think one problem is that you are assuming that one can't get incredible amounts of topspin taking the ball early.  In my experience, that is not true, especially if the ball comes off the table enough to make a full stroke.  It's all about the brushing motion.  The brushing motion that creates topspin can be created by going over the ball or upwards behind the ball.  The brushing motion that creates chop can be done by going downwards on the ball or underneath the ball. I don't find the names of the strokes that important - just their effectiveness when playing.  I do agree however that for most people, it is easier to generate the most spin by taking the ball after the peak of the bounce because of more time to set up and a larger upward stroke. Flat hits can have topspin, but they are not spin oriented strokes - they are supposed to be hit mostly with the ball on the center on the paddle.  They have spin primarily because of how inverted grips the ball. Drives are speed oriented strokes.  There are topspin drives or smashes (flat hit drives).  I consider a topspin drive to be a loop, but other people do not. Some of the people who debate you have been playing in different capacities just as long as you have.  One of the reasons I respect a forumer (who shall remain unnamed for now) on this site is that he rarely ever brings his rating into the discussion when debating things - he just asks questions and acts as if he is learning something new when he thinks other people are saying nonsense.