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"L" bh grip with fh rubber

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    Posted: 07/20/2021 at 12:40am
There is that grip that draws an horizontally flipped "L" on the bh rubber. The index tip is at about the same place but the thumb is there too, on the left of the handle. Handling the paddle loosely and hitting the air a few times will help us getting the right grip for maximum wrist snap effect. 

I would describe it that way:

-The index is about 1 inch from the bottom right of the bh rubber and close to the edge.

-The thumb is as close as possible to the bottom left corner of the rubber.

-Only the tips of the index and thumb touch the rubber, the rest is under tension.

-The index and thumb are pressure points and act as springs. They should bend backwards a bit to push against the rubber and that top corner area of the hand at the base of the pinky finger where the end of the bh handle balances index and thumb. The other 3 fingers are the pistons increasing and decreasing pressure on demand.

-The index never moves between the bh to fh and fh to bh recovery.

-For the fh, the thumb can either go to the top of the fh handle or stay free doing nothing, it depends.

From there, we can start hitting bh drives forward with a loose grip and find out how we generate the most air flow, we can hear it :) Recovery bh to fh and back is easy learning. 

It is interesting to notice the very fh oriented fh and the very bh oriented bh that grip gives.

The blocking game close to the table and off the bounce is out of this world with the windshield wiper mode on! The bh "L" grip may stay there for the fh block with a true fh always available.

Most of all, the bh rubber can be long pips and adding the chopping thing is a matter of using the fh grip for a bh chop with the pips.

The bh push becomes lp only with a traditional sh grip, unless we twiddle. Is that a problem? There is a way to do the inverted bh push going towards the Seemiller grip from both regular sh and L grip but we are pushing even further the screwy thing there; but it's possible.

The possibilities increase with twiddling, like traditional bh loops for lower balls or fh lp quick blocks?

That grip seems to be the perfect weapon for the screwy player. I think it is vastly unchartered and might be worth exploring more. Maybe past a certain level, the recovery time between the 2 grips is too long for the speed at play but I see top players adjusting their grip between fh and bh so...?

Wanting to favor the grip I'd say that whatever fh we choose should be the one that minimizes recovery both ways. We'll end up with quite the fh oriented fh anyway so we should really focus on speed of recovery.




Edited by stiltt - 07/20/2021 at 10:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2021 at 9:41am
Are you talking about the Seemiller grip?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2021 at 10:27am
I am not. The Seemiller grip keeps the index finger on the side edge of the paddle, it's an entirely different animal that I never found as stable. The Seemiller grip locks everything in an awkward position and puts the index there on the edge just to force open the fh rubber to the bh side, it is not committed to the "bh-with-the-fh-rubber" idea and just goes 1/2 way. It's 1/2 baked and doesn't get close to what I see as more versatile in what I describe above.
I'll make pictures and/or a movie.

edit (again): I like that part in Gregg's description of the Seemiller grip weaknesses (to better defend the L-grip): 

Disadvantages
The amount of wrist movement is hampered on the backhand side, limiting the ability to topspin the ball heavily, or hit with great power.

To the credit of the Seemiller grip, I completely disagree. I have a fake frirend very good with his Seemiller grip and his bh rips are phenomenal, also his redirected bh blocks of the bounce, just like that, with no effort they can make us look like fools. The same power and blocking capabilities apply to the L-grip. I truly think the Seemiller grip is a subset, a compression of the L-grip to fit a bigger than life personality (Danny...) that people try hard to emulate with more or less success.



Edited by stiltt - 07/20/2021 at 10:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2021 at 3:39pm
Here is a short movie.

I call it the "Lay grip" because if I had to say the letter "L" backwards, it would sound like "Lay".

OK don't lay me down too hard please Confused



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2021 at 4:06pm
I know someone who uses this exact grip (we play on the same team during the Teams tournament). He plays with an anti rubber on one side and a sriver-like rubber on the other side. It IS a variation of the Seemiller grip. This grip does wonders at amateur levels and the setup is deadly. There are some nuances and styles you would rather not encounter when using this grip but I am not going to discuss any of it in public since our potential opponents could be reading this LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2021 at 4:10pm
Frankly I thought the Seemiller grip was a variation of this one: you drop the thumb and send the index aside on the edge, firing anybody who could take credit LOL

Edited by stiltt - 07/20/2021 at 4:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2021 at 4:10pm
Also, I am pretty sure it's called a V-grip not an L-grip....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2021 at 4:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jackcerry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2021 at 6:22am


This man uses the same grip, he’s a pure blocker 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2021 at 9:23am
I knew a 2200-2300 player who used to play that way.  He would whip his wrist and put crazy spin on the ball.  He also would flip his racket and use anti on the other side.  He gave people a tough time when he was active.  Not sure the grip has a special name though.  This grip has been around for a while.  Way before 1990. 


Edited by Lightspin - 07/21/2021 at 9:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2021 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Jackcerry Jackcerry wrote:



This man uses the same grip, he’s a pure blocker 

This is similar but not quite the same. The player I was talking about uses the same rubber/side for both forehand and backhand... similar to the Seemiller backhand. In order to use the other side, they twiddle not play the backhand the conventional way as the guy in the video. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2021 at 7:54pm
He knows, jackcerry just wanted to explain how he takes care of those players LOL

Dear Lord, that was borderline murder!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2021 at 10:34pm
I put it in the coaching section hoping that coaches would pitch in about the possibilities. What I have in mind when interpreting the lack of response is simple risk aversion making sh and ph dominate, like amazon and facebook: if everybody goes there, I do too, it's more convenient. 

If those 2 propositions are true:

1) Chances are a super talented kid starting with that grip and having along the luck to train hard with ever better practice partners and coaches to dominate and create a flow of followers are so low. 
2) The risk to invest time into a grip leading to a dead end is somehow perceived as high so no parents and coaches will go for it.

It is a non-starter.

My question about the grip and the tactics buildable on it are more a mind teaser and a game to test our comprehension of the game.

Can we say for example that the server's 3rd ball aggressive bh LP chop (traditional sh bh with the lp) on the receiver's short push not only is not that easy to deal with but also requires the server's much less energy than a loop to create the same issue and energy hungry reaction from the opponent? if yes, the server saved energy along the tourney and has more reserves for the final. Overtime, will the player save his body much better and play at the highest level longer? who knows?

The bh block off the bounce with that grip is incredible and only that validates it imo. Then there are all the other benefits with the LP sneaking in.

The only cons. is the traditional bh loop on low balls and the replacement of the chiquita with a LP stroke (twiddling will allow the chiquita though...). To face that weakness, if it's over the table and not hittable then we use the LP because twiddling there is too risky at higher levels where a mistake is punished worse. If the 2nd bounce falls outside the table then we have time to twiddle and we still can chop too...

Really I don't see why that grip could not dominate because with years and years of twiddling and the development of handles that help that twiddling, a player with LP chopping and inverted looping on both wings would be tough to beat. 

Think of "Timo and Joo in one player". May I rename the thread that, please? Tongue

Is this proposition true: Among all Timo's bh strokes, there are some that are too tough to equal in quality with the L-grip but on all of those, the regular sh grip LP can give a ball back that is as difficult to deal with as what Timo sends.

Too many questions at once, quote selectively! Big smile




Edited by stiltt - 07/24/2021 at 10:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2021 at 2:15pm
It is a variation of the Seemiller grip.  I have seen a good number of players use it over the years.  The late John Schneider, for example, played that way.  We were clubmates for a good number of years.

For amateurs, there is little downside to it.  It has its strengths and weaknesses, but there is nothing particularly limiting there until you get to a fairly high level.

The strengths of the grip are blocking and excellent coverage of the cross over point.  The weaknesses are BH loop, coverage of very wide angles, and overall looping power.  Wristy spin generation is pretty easy with this grip, but overall power generation for players with this grip is a little limited even on the FH (and abysmal on the BH).  There are some exceptions to that.  For example, Danny Seemiller could loop the beejesus out of the ball, but he was such an exceptional athlete overall that there is no surprise there.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2021 at 7:33pm
I played a guy who used Seemiler quite well. They get quite a lot of spin from their wristy loops but honestly it's all spin and no power, because you need to apply some significant pressure from the fingers to make the blade face stable to get the full benefit of the power from the body. 

Honestly, penhold has all the same advantages (no crossover point, ability to use LP on other side, twiddling etc...) and almost none of the disadvantages (power generation). 

I find the penhold inverted + LP style to be super deadly, am still figuring out how to beat these tricky monsters :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2021 at 12:17am
Yes, ph can offer the same (LP on one side and twiddle, no elbow weakness) with WAY more coaches available, it makes the L-grip the black sheep of the family. It does not invalidate the L-grip though because only the low balls on bh loops can't be done there but a quality lp chop can be as challenging than a rpb loop in those situations.
I am sorry but saying that "Dan Seemiller could produce spin with his bh but he was  great an athlete" is not invalidating the L-grip, we are assuming people with the same athletic capabilities like all athletes who can reach national level. I am asking: would Dan have become world champ with a traditional sh grip all the way and inverted on both sides? Was his grip a block to his global domination? (no pun intended) nothing is less sure.


Edited by stiltt - 07/26/2021 at 12:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2021 at 12:25am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Yes, ph can offer the same (LP on one side and twiddle, no elbow weakness) with WAY more coaches available, it makes the L-grip the black sheep of the family. It does not invalidate the L-grip though because only the low balls on bh loops can't be done there but a quality lp chop can be as challenging than a rpb loop in those situations.
I am sorry but saying that "Dan Seemiller could produce spin with his bh but he was  great an athlete" is not invalidating the L-grip, we are assuming people with the same athletic capabilities like all athletes who can reach national level. I am asking: would Dan have become world champ with a traditional sh grip all the way and inverted on both sides? Was his grip a block to his global domination? (no pun intended) nothing is less sure.

Dan could produce a lot of spin on his FH, not BH.  He had really good footwork and really spectacular hand speed.  Aside from service return, Dan played a very conventional one sided looping game.

I do not know if he would become a world champion or not, but I do know that when two color rule was introduced players with this grip were severely effected.

I do know that during his long coaching career, Dan actively encouraged his promising students to play with the shakehand grip presumably because he thought that the grip he used was limiting.

I have never played with this grip, but I played against players who used it quite a lot, ranging from intermediate up to 2300-ish ones at their peak.

I am pretty certain that all of them would freely admit that if you looking to get to the top level of ceompetition this grip becomes a limitation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2021 at 12:40am
The main issue is we do not have enough data, not enough people who took the risk to invest a whole childhood and teenage time on the grip.

I get the message about the 2 color rule though, it really broke Dan's while he was ascending, like a duck shot in his flight. I am just wondering about teaching LP, twiddling and related tactics from the start.

Maybe this is more a discussion about the automatic domination of inverted/LP combo if you can twiddle fast, no matter the grip. Then from there if we can use the fh rubber in the bh (winshield wiper block and kill mindset) or the bh lp rubber, we get more variation and the scope of one's game gets enlarged much. There comes the L-grip and that's where I reach the limits of my understanding in the discussion.
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