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Throw angle is a bunch of bull too |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Posted: 05/06/2010 at 11:14pm |
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SD
Edited by pnachtwey - 03/20/2012 at 3:57am |
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Rich215
Premier Member Joined: 02/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3488 |
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How many different rubbers have you tried on the same blade.....and how many blades have you tried with the same rubber?
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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The throw angle is the angle the ball comes off with you loop it. If you loop the same ball (with backspin or topspin) and have one bat with Bryce and one with T05, you'll see how much higher the T05 comes off. The difference is the throw of the rubber.
As an engineer, you should look at the data (evidence) first, before dismissing a theory because it seems like bull to you. A good engineer can always find a theory to suit the data! |
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tpgh2k
Platinum Member Joined: 09/14/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2103 |
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you can look at it like this....the topsheet of a rubber is the main reason behind "throw angle". if a topsheet is super sensitive to spin, the ball will kick up like crazy when blocking a loop (with an open blade face perpendicular to the table). a rubber that is less sensitive to spin (we'll say anti-spin so that you can see the other extreme) will have no reaction to spin...so the ball will just bounce back forward with little height.
hope that helps. |
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Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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A
Edited by pnachtwey - 03/20/2012 at 3:58am |
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Leshxa
Gold Member Joined: 01/03/2009 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1917 |
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Its all a property of topsheet, sponge, and blade flexibility and rigidity.
All topsheets are different and so is the pimples pattern in them. Depending on how the pimple bend into the sponge will yield to different results. I would suggest contacting table tennis engineers for details. I am sure if you call up Yasaka or Stiga, they would provide you the answers. |
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Back to table tennis...
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Conan the Greek
Super Member Joined: 05/02/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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As an engineer, it should be intuitive that different pip patterns, sponge rebound rates, sponge hardness, topsheet grip and hardness would all have an impact on throw angle. As for a higher throw from countering a loop as opposed to hitting a chop... well, you did say you were a relative TT rookie. But consider a very close / slow motion look at the direction of rebound of the ball from a stationary grippy surface when the ball has backspin compared to topspin. |
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pushchop
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 205 |
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This video should prove it for you. Start at 2:20. They are comparing old vs. new Outlaw, but as you can see the trajectory is somewhat different even between old and new.
Zero user variables in play, since blade is held by fixed clamp, with robot shooting the balls at fixed speed/spin. |
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BMonkey
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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It's just one parameter of a rubber, and it may not be useful to everyone.
Yes it is, but we're not looking a number here, we're just looking whether it's high, medium or low. This can usually be judged well enough by players that have used a fwe rubbers.
I know it's real from personal experience, but accurate throw numbers are not useful, as they vary too much between styles/strokes. Usually you only want to know if it's high or low compared to other rubbers. I'm sure a setup could be used to prove the concept, but it will be quite complex, and you'd have to ask yourself if it's worth the effort...
The point is that it will still be higher throw than if you looped the same ball with a low-throw rubber. This is what makes it high... it's a relative term compared to other rubbers. |
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tpgh2k
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well said haggis! +10000000000000000000000000
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Speedplay
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posted by pnachtwey What about when a playing against a chopper? My T05's throw is mighty low and it takes great care to keep the ball from going straight down into the table or into the net. It is obvious that the opponent has a great effect on the 'throw'. This is not the throw that comes in to play, the throw comes in to play when you actually manage to loop the ball. You might still hit the net, but the arc of the ball is high with T 05, while it is low with Mark V m2. This is not because of the player, cause I've used them both and when I switched to T 05, I had to change my bat angle for my loops, cause they where way to high. |
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The holy grail
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ppmax
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pnachtwey,
You misunderstood what throw meant. Hope others have made it clear. You have a good idea about quantifying throw of rubbers using a standardized test method. How to do it would be a good topic. |
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JKC
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Has Sid returned?
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debraj
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.... +1 or Varghese |
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APW46
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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haggisv
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ROFL!!! |
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murrayblhrc
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I think this video's interesting, but factors such as the rebound effect tested in the beginning are hard to consider, especially because blade angle factor plays such a large roll in determining the rebound height, length. On the same topic, it is clearly visible in the video that the ball would hit the bat angled in the vise and slightly move, thus completely changing the results drastically of even the trial being tested............. |
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pushchop
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Pnachtwey, swap out one of your T05 with a $5 sheet of low throw 729 Lightening from zeropong.com. Now compare the throw angles on FH.
At that very instance, clouds in the sky will part, sunshine will pour down on you, angels will sing, and a big halo will form around your head. Well, maybe not. But at least you'll prove to yourself what throw angle describes. :-) Hey murrayblhrc, yes, it's no science lab but I applaud them for the effort trying to be objective. |
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cole_ely
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Throw angle has a lot to do with the pips from my experience. Tall pips can get underneath the ball and push it up. Flat or big pips don't do that and tend to send the ball in a straighter path. I first figured this out when comparing the 729 sst (tall) pip with the stranger shaped ritc 2000.
The base sheet seems to be pretty simlar, but the pips of the 2000 definitely seem to play "flatter."
Topsheet tackiness only adds to throw angle in terms of its' reaction to spin. I don't consider this a true contributor to throw angle.
That said, I think it's fairly minimal between most rubbers and will easilly be compensated for with a little getting used to any rubber. It's certainly not as big of a deal as made out to be by some people on forums. Most of them probably hit the ball long and then blame it on their high throw rubber, or vice versa.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Baal
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Blades have different throw angles too.
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debraj
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Wrong experiment design: - it has to be vertical to account for the gravitational force field but even then drop a forward or backward spinning ball at an angle on glass and then on rubber. if the throw angle differs.. that means it is friction dependent... and you can infer why rubbers with diff friction (and other factors too) differ in throw angle
right. player dependent means not their 'face'... but the pressure they exert or angle the contact or speed of contact etc... which are all physical variables.
huh! lets see... people in forum who are dying to make pnatchweywawawawhosoever believe.. please create a fund and contribute. Or else you know what will happen? HE WONT BELLLLIIIIIEEEEEVE!! ooops. sorry i wish i was one ;)
You are right! ... by throw we usually mean throw on a topspin ball. If you consider backspin... it will be a mirror ...so T-05 will have lower throw than say Super Anti. |
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nathanso
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BBC, SP, LP
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hojim
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American Hinoki 2 ply POC/NWC Shake FL Rakza 7 FH Boost TS BH (testing)
1 ply Hinoki shake FL FH Rakza BH Pride 30 San Wei A5 FH Rakza 7 BH Pryde 30 |
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yogi_bear
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sid alert???
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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
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Thaidog
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I would agree that the term "throw angle" is the first thing I see taken out of context and is usually more subjective than a scientific mark on how something is playing for somebody. Due to the fact that no two wooden blades are the same and no two people play the same throw angles tend to vary... but both blades and rubbers do have throw angles and those angles combined do create a throw when looping or spin is involved. The problem when using this as a measure for how either a blade or a rubber is supposed to play or behave is that there is too much variance as described above to take this as anything but subjective feel for how this or that is playing. A peice of 1.9mm tenergry on a stiff blade will have a much lower throw than a 2.1mm sheet on a OFF- blade while looping but at low speeds the throw will be more similar due to the fact that the ball is interacting less with the wood / sponge and more with just the topsheet.
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Timo ALC FL
Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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AS
Edited by pnachtwey - 03/20/2012 at 4:00am |
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Jonan
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^
Above wall of text is too long. Did not listen! |
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Heimdallalso
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pnachtwey, I get that you want a more quantifiable rubric as it applies to TT gear... I do. BUT You better wash your hands, well, that's after you walked in here & handed all of us our asses. This forum was plugging along quite nicely before you came along to tell us how we are doing it all wrong! Calling out haggisv on his rightly carrying about his duties as a moderator? Preposterous! putting APW46 on your "s-list"??? That's rich! I'll let you know right now; he will loose no sleep over it!!! Picture the forum like someones living room.We've all been invited to a party! On any given night & we are all just guests, coming & going. I'm going over to the other side of the room now. Good Day & Good Hitting. |
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NEXY Lissom st 85g
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Baal
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I would argue that very few things in all of sports are as precise as the feel that a 2000+ level table tennis player has for the way a blade or blade-rubber combination plays. It is the same precision that professional musicians have for their technology and it is just as mysterious to rookies. Throw angle is a pretty good term and other people at similar playing levels and with similar styles of play -- that is to say, not TT rookies -- know what is meant.
As for believing what the manufacturers say about their products, well anyone who is not a TT rookie knows that most companies either tell you nothing useful about how it plays, or they will simply claim that product X has more speed, more spin, AND YET more control too!!! The only way to know is to try something, or to talk to people who you know have the experience and playing level to be a reliable source. One thing is for sure, most of the time too frequent equipment changes will retard your development as a player. |
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