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legal boosters? |
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Baal
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Because Berndt pro athletes are constantly looking for gains no matter how marginal. Maybe it is enough if tbe match you are playing is likely to go to 11-9 in the 7th game. Also if you have enough of tbem it adds up. It is why pro road cyclists shave their legs.
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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I will try to be as gentle as my temperament permits, Baal. There is no moral equivalent between the legal practice of shaving one's legs to--what?--become more aerodynamically at one with one's bicycle and the illegal practice, though still presently undetectable, of knowingly and deliberately using a boosting oil in the hope of having a marginal gain to give you that vital advantage in the seventh game.of a table tennis match. As if, as a professional table tennis player who became a pro though countless hours of practice, training, and match play, you should feel that you need that advantage anyway, which is a form of cheating in no way comparable to a cyclist's shaving his/her legs. And of course if you boost long enough and squeak out enough of those seven game matches you have every right to feel proud of yourself. And the manufacturer of the boosting oil you use. And the national association which doesn't give a damn if you use it. And the ITTF, who utters in sonorous tones of feigned outrage--we gotta do something about this boosting epidemic! Is there any other shady practice in any other sport you'd care to defend? |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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APW46
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Crikey ! are we still on about this ? I know personally a player who played through the transgression from the hard bat era to the modern era, he became world over 60's champ, and I can assure anyone, players were doing things to their bats back then to gain advantage with their Barna super brown rubbers. There were no spotlights or rules to bother about it back then though, so maybe the game was not as pure as you think berndt.
I have also recently acquired the full set of world sport magazine issues from 1950 to 1960, Victor Barna wrote a monthly section in that Magazine and it is absolutely amazing how the predictions of doom for TT were constant. Anyway twiddling was NOT invented in the sponge era, if you put one side of your Brown Barna super in the sun for a few days, it played differently enough to to mess you opponent up spin wise. (allegedly) Another trick was to use acetone on the pip tips, increasing spin over and above the norm for the factory produced rubbers. Then there was Taking off the underlying gauze using acetone, and re applying without the gauze making the bat faster but with less control, in essence, you could do what ever you bloody liked to your hard bat back then, and they really honestly did ! It is just that it was not under any kind of scrutiny. Oh I forgot, sandpaper across the pips was common to rough the edges up and more spin. My point is, players have always done stuff to their equipment to gain an advantage, although I have to admit, the advantage gained in the hard bat era would have been less than now.
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Fulanodetal
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but the claim is 100% of pros do boost their rubbers (I am skeptical of this claim but for the sake of argument...). so no one can claim any moral high ground!!!
and according to ITTF control police....no one is boosting so much that is detectable on their machines. and there is factory boosting, which is boosting after all! FdT |
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APW46
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Of course they do if it benefits them.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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the_theologian
Premier Member Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3895 |
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I understood Baal's cyclists' leg shaving reference to be a argument for exhibited effort for the sake of marginal gains, not a moral justification.
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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CraneStyle
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X-Files! "The truth is out there..." |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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I myself played from the twilight of the hardbat era in the United States through the 40 mm. ball and the speed glue era (had to stop in 2005). And I used to, but no longer have, a nearly full compliment of table tennis magazines from both the USTTA and the English Table Tennis Association from the late 1930s through the late 1950s. I also had brochures from Jimmy McClure's Pla-Good Shop, Hock Table Tennis, and the MacCrossen brothers, Ed (a good player) and John Pershing. Table tennis rubbers used by top players in the hardbat era did not all come in Barna brown. The Bergmann Popular bat, a beautifully made 3-ply mahogany/birch? core racket, had a deep blue rubber affixed to it. MacCrossen rubbers, made possibly by an American company, the Hodgman Co. (I do not know, except for ads by that company in Table Tennis Topics), came in several different colors, as did Hock rubbers and Slazenger rubbers. Even the Barna racket wasn't always covered with brown rubber. Jeff Ingber, one of England's best juniors in the 1950s, whom I met in Manchester England for a team hardbat match between England and the United States (England won) played with a nearly mint condition Barna bat more oval shaped then the Barna bats of the '50s and '60s covered with dark green rubber. The late Henry Buist, England's best veteran fulltime hardbat player, played with a somewhat keystone shaped Rowe Twins bat (the Rowe twins being Rosalind and Diane, English internationals). I don't recall the color of the rubber on Mr. Buist's blade, but I don't think it was brown. I cannot dispute this gentleman's allegations as I don't have access to his reference materials nor of course to his reminiscences, and since Ivor Montagu, President of the ITTF during both the hardbat eras of the mid-'20s to 1939 and the postwar period from 1947 through 1955 deliberately made the rules governing equipment and for that matter what you could do to it extremely lax, I've no doubt that some players took advantage of those lax rules and as today regarding boosting oils nonexistent enforcement. I'd be inclined to doubt, however, that the best players of the hardbat eras of the 1930s and the late 1940s-mid=1950s, pulled all of the tricks, or even any of them, that the gentleman you know describes. For one thing, neither Dick Miles nor Marty Reisman, world class internationals of the late '40s-early'50s, used "Super Barna" brown rubbers on their 3-ply Hock No. 74 hardbats. Richard Bergmann did not use a brown rubber on his Bergmann Popular racket. And quite probably even Victor Barna played with a rubber other than brown on his Barna Personal blade. None of the shenanigans your friend describes could have given any player from Roland Jacobi in the mid-20's to Angelica Rozeanu in the mid-1950s, both World Singles Champions, any significant advantage. Can anyone say for certain that the use of boosting oils by today's top professionals, which pretty much constitutes first-degree cheating, does not give those who use them some sort of advantage, particularly when it comes to crunch time, with the match on the line in the seventh, which if I understand Baal correctly, is the only reason the pros boost in the first place. Edited by berndt_mann - 11/02/2017 at 8:01pm |
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bmann1942
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Baal
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Yes. |
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Baal
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Yes. In answer to a question from Berndt which was if the effects of boosting are ratively small, why do people do it. Berndt then jumped on my reslonse as a moral justification. I do think it is an idiotic rule but morality was not my point in that response. Berndt knows that. But he loves to troll. And of course APW is right. Athletes have always obsessed about their equipment and look for marginal gains. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Great galloping Gautama in the Gobi! Words fail me. Praise the Lord we trolls love pure tripe, as, rather than sensible and sound arguments backed by evidence, pure tripe from a moderator whom one would think or at least know better seems to be the rhetorical meal of the day, along with a generous portion of ad hominem on the side. Yeah atheletes from time immemorial have always looked out for the main chance. The trick, however, is to do that within the present rules, whether you like them or think them idiotic, of the sport you play. This is known as fair play, and it's not such a bad idea. As for APW46's post, of course he was not quite right, as I pointed out in a recent previous post which I feel no need to recapitulate. If you read that post with a smidgen of the care I put into it I would suspect that you would come to the conclusion that hanky-panky was not, and could not have been, a practice in which the best international hardbat players engaged. Not that many international level hardbat players used "Super Brown" Barna rubbers, as I pointed out in my post. Club players and league players perhaps, as table tennis has been for the the past 91 years a crazily regulated sport, but no World Champion would have gained any advantage whatsoever from that kind of tomfoolery. Damn. What are you people smoking? Whatever it is, it seems to go straight to the limbic system.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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APW46
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http://blog.tabletennis11.com/table-tennis-racket-history-evolution
Some evidence of hardbat 'scullduggery' I only used 'brown rubber' Barna super as a generalization because it was the most popular bat of the time. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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I have read Mr. Hudetz' article. And that statement is incorrect, as in the early to mid-1930s, when Barna won his five World Singles Chamionships, Barna did not use any racket which was "the most popular bat of the time." In the early 1930s, Parker Brothers made rackets for the exclusive use of their American champions, such as Coleman Clark and Marcus Schussheim. A company named Becker made the first Barna rackets under Barna's name in the mid-1930s. Afterward they were made by Dunlop. Slazenger made the racket the American champion Sol Schiff used and also the English champion Eric Filby, as well as Richard Bergmann, who is pictured in his book Twenty-One Up using a Bergmann Popular racket made by Slazenger. S. W. Hancock Ltd. made the rackets used by Johnny Leach. Stiga made the Flisan racket, presumably used by the Swedish international Tage Flisberg. A Hungarian artisan named Dr. Simon made the rackets for my first coach Danny Vegh. Bernard Hock made the rackets used by the world class Americans Dick Miles and Marty Reisman. Leah Neuberger, a multi-time American champion and international, may have used a MacCrossen racket. And there were, as can be seen in Chuck Hoey's museum or (hopefully on the ittf.com website), other lesser known manufacturers of rackets of European origin. Edited by berndt_mann - 11/03/2017 at 10:47am |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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APW46
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At the end of the day berndt I am not sure what your problem is, There is a healthy hard bat movement and I love it along with many other TT fanatics. But please don't be romanticised by the 'gentlemanly conduct' of the classic era, I have the fortune to have played and socialised with many players from that era, England is a hotbed, I played against many players in the English local leagues in my early days (1970's) who saw it all, some who played in the 1930's, through American finger spinners to the early sponge bat players so have heard it all. The 'gentlemanly conduct' vision you so love was just not true, Its just that it was a different era and any kind of accusation of cheating was seen as seriously as an accusation of Murder back then !! so it was not talked about. Nobody wanted to be seen as a 'Cad' but they were rife, its just that it was done in a gentlemanly manor.
Classic methods of 'gaining an advantage' or some would say Cheating back in the 1940's 50's (1) treating rubbers. Raquets could only be bought pre-made so players who had perished rubbers accelerated the perishing when they needed to replace their raquet, this was achieved by applying heat to a new bat. (2) roughing up pimples by using sandpaper to increase spin. (3)Changing the characteristics of a table by means of polishing. (4) physically taking pips off a rubber (shaving) The 'Cad'was rife, long live the Cad. I will agree with you one one thing though, the benefit those players gained through their actions were far less than the benefits of Tuning today.
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APW46
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I also have just been been bequeathed a complete collection of world Sport magazine from 1950 to 1970, Victor Barna wrote a monthly column in that Magazine and it is making amazing reading. His prediction in 1954 was that TT would be dead as a sport by 1960 because of sponge. He could not envisage Jan Ove Waldner obviously.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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berndt_mann
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Do you have any verifiable evidence, APW46, that English internationals such as Leach, Pinkie Barnes, the Rowe twins, and Johnny Leach doctored their rubbers in the manners you have enumerated? Or expatriates to England such as Barna and Bergmann? Or three-time World Singles finalists Alex Ehrlich and Laszlo Bellak? Or Sandor Glancz? Or Vana? Or Sido? Or Ruth Aarons or Trudi Pritzi? Or Ivan Andreadis or Connie Freundorfer? Or Amouretti? Or Gigi Farkas? Or Angelica Rozeanu? Or for that matter any player of international note from 1926 to 1955?
Finger- and knuckle spin serves were legal until banned by the USATT and the ITTF. Though a product of human ingenuity, they tended to louse up the sport and probably should never have been legal in the first place. Once again I ask: do you have any supportive evidence that international level players from the mid-1920s through the mid-1950s employed any of the practices that you describe? Or might it be more likely that inasmuch as the only rule governing equipment during that period was known as Rule 4, which stated that a racket may be of any size, shape, weight, or material, and its covering could be of any material so long as the covering was neither white nor reflective. All of the practices you describe pertaining to rackets and rubbers, though obnoxious, bush league and tawdry, would under the deliberately lax rule of that era be legal. Ivor Montagu, an aristocrat, screenwriter, Stalinist. and spy for the Soviet Union during the early years of World War II, did not want to discourage technological innovation in table tennis both with respect to blades and blade coverings. I doubt, and you have yet to prove, and have in a previous post exhibited a wacky view of table tennis history by writing that the Barna bat was the most popular bat of its time (it wasn't), that any player of any caliber at the national or international level, deliberately and with malice aforethought sought to gain an advantage over an opponent of similar stature by doctoring his or her blade or rubber or both. If only the same could be said of many of the top internationals of 2017.
Edited by berndt_mann - 11/03/2017 at 5:52pm |
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bmann1942
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APW46
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NO No No, its not a freaking court case man , and its evidently not as important to me ( or anyone else on this forum) as it is to you. But you could learn stuff off me if you want. Even the self confessed oracle of everything hard bat classic TT has room for a little bit more if they are open to it.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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berndt_mann
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FYI, APW46, I'm not, and have never claimed to be, "the self-confessed oracle of everything hardbat classic TT". Hell, I played more with inverted both sides than with a hardbat. I became a born again hardbat man in 1997, the year Marty Reisman defeated Larry Hodges, himself a hardbat singles champion, to win at age 67 the 1997 U.S. National Championship Hardbat Open. I finally took, after six years of fooling around with speed glue and trying to become a sex-crazed vampiress of a two-wing 50 plus year old speed glooper, coach Zhi Yong "Rocky" Wang's advice, who, after watching me defeat three of his teen-aged students at the Eastern Traning Center at Columbia, Maryland with a Hock hardbat back in '91, said to me "why to you want to learn how to walk all over again? You already know how to walk."
Two oracles of everything American classic hardbat tt, the second of which I knew for twenty years and corresponded to by e-mail, telephone, and conversed with and practiced with at the U.S. National and Open Championships and six World Veteran Championships died seven and five years ago, respectively. You have shown me that some league? county level? English players were, shall we say, devilishly ingenious in doing things to their blades and hard rubbers back in the 1930s that might have gained them a momentary advantage over a fellow patzer, but would not have given any player who had solid skills at least at the elite level any real difficulties. Pulling stuff such as you have described would give your average Mancunian Mighty Walzer as much chance of beating a good hardbat player as someone who epoxidized his long pips would have had against say Chester Barnes or Dennis Neale. English battledore players in the early 1900s used to use ground glass or emory powder to add extra spin to their round-arm forehand drives. Did that give those players a decided advantage? Written table tennis history is mum on that subject. Edited by berndt_mann - 11/03/2017 at 7:55pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Fulanodetal
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhEKOewo-s4 Sums it up quite nicely. FdT
Edited by Fulanodetal - 11/04/2017 at 12:15pm |
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the_theologian
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Lol! I forgot about these videos. |
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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bbkon
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booster discusion turned into ancient black and white table tennis. whats next wax sound recordings? over flac files? berdnt can you talk about 21 century table tennis? you re making me hate table tennis |
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slevin
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berndt_mann, this is important:
PLEASE STOP HIJACKING ALL THREADS AND TURNING THEM INTO TREATISES ON HISTORICAL TABLE TENNIS. THIS IS ANNOYING TO A LARGE NUMBER OF FORUM MEMBERS. You are probably well-intentioned and not a troll. But your effect on mytt threads is similar to what a troll would have. You've been repeatedly told that. Now, please have the self-confidence to abstain from discussions in an appropriate manner. You provide a lot of value to this forum via your wealth of historical knowledge. Perhaps, it is best to isolate that in a dedicated thread (or 3) where we can dive in to learn / opine and leave threads of topics pertaining to stuff from year 2000 onwards (say) alone?
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berndt_mann
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(slevin)
slevin, I did not hijack this thread and as a matter of fact and record there are many many threads in this forum to which I have no particular interest in posting. So your statement in capital letters to me to stop turning all threads into historical treatises on table tennis is simply not so. As far as this thread is concerned, I replied to a post by APW46, an assistant moderator of this forum, in which he detailed several ways in which English players of the 1930s perhaps even through the mid-1950s doctored the rubbers they used (brown Barna super, which in the 1930s did not exist and in the late 1940s-mid-1950s was neither called "super" nor was it generally used by hardbat players with varying degrees of skill from novice to international), in order presumably to gain an advantage over their opponents of equal skill (or lack thereof) who did not engage in such shady practices. That post, dated November 2, can be read in its entirety on this post. (APW46) Crikey ! are we still on about this ? I know personally a player who
played through the transgression from the hard bat era to the modern
era, he became world over 60's champ, and I can assure anyone, players
were doing things to their bats back then to gain advantage with their
Barna super brown rubbers. There were no spotlights or rules to bother
about it back then though, so maybe the game was not as pure as you
think berndt.
I have also recently acquired the full set of world
sport magazine issues from 1950 to 1960, Victor Barna wrote a monthly
section in that Magazine and it is absolutely amazing how the
predictions of doom for TT were constant. Anyway twiddling was NOT
invented in the sponge era, if you put one side of your Brown Barna
super in the sun for a few days, it played differently enough to to mess
you opponent up spin wise. (allegedly) Another trick was to
use acetone on the pip tips, increasing spin over and above the norm for
the factory produced rubbers. Then there was Taking off the underlying
gauze using acetone, and re applying without the gauze making the bat
faster but with less control, in essence, you could do what ever you
bloody liked to your hard bat back then, and they really honestly did !
It is just that it was not under any kind of scrutiny. Oh I forgot, sandpaper across the pips was common to rough the edges up and more spin. My
point is, players have always done stuff to their equipment to gain an
advantage, although I have to admit, the advantage gained in the hard
bat era would have been less than now. Edited by berndt_mann - 11/04/2017 at 11:22pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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berndt_mann
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Yep. Hey. Is that a liter of Old Dianchi No. 7 Seamoon Preferred next to Per Gerell over there? Gotta go. Edited by berndt_mann - 11/04/2017 at 9:15pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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igorponger
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New restrictive regulations by ITTF.
Dianchi@ rubber may be outlawed and eliminated from ITTF Approval List, according to the ITTF New Restrictions on illegal products (boosters) and illicit treatment, effective of 1january 2018 on. And the same danger is now impending over H3 rubber... FACTORY boosting is now regarded as illegal treatment. Restrictions to come soon. |
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Fulanodetal
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"And the same danger is now impending over
There is such a thing as unboosted H3 rubber. Tough nuggies igor!! try again sometime lol FdT
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