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Plastic ball, end of Tenergy for CNT? |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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It could be that trainig with H3 might alter your stroke in a way that forces you to really contact the ball open and hard and that in turn requires perfect footwark if you are in free play. It is not like Euro rubber. If you then switch back to a Euro rubber rhe footwork would still be there. But the vast majority of European professionals use Tenergy-like ribbers because they learned with them and Chiese stuff including all H3 is quite different. Maybe things will change with new balls but thsts how it is now and for a long time.
AgentHEX mentioned Keinath. Actually i do ecall reading somewhere that he used a Chinese rubber om his FH. It makes sense actually given the way he hits that shot. Very different from most European players. Of course if pros are in fact changing equipment because of the balls ,which we will know in time , it says something about how they perceive the balls. Are we sure thats why some people changed? For me afte 9 months with new balls Im finally thinking to try one or two experiments. Maybe T64 instead of 05. Maybe another try with MX P. |
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Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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I think the crux of this discussion is thus: if the CNT can boost H3 to be as fast as Tenergy, or if they modify their strategy such that the speed of Tenergy is not needed on the backhand, then they will move to H3 for more spin.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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What I remain unsure of is would it be better to have a faster rubber or a spinnier one with new balls? Probably depends on the player. I have no idea which of those might help me or maybe neithet.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I went to a spinnier rubber. But it didn't happen overnight and what I use now differs from what I used before on my flat/defensive strokes. But using both side by side over a month helped me appreciate what I use now as a reasonable alternative. Edited by NextLevel - 03/23/2015 at 10:25am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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That's a good question. If a different rubber could make the plastic ball shot spinnier, I would say that this would be preferable. For many players (including myself) the problem with the plastic balls is making the loop-kill type shots drop on the table. I'm not convinced that 'better' rubbers can make this happen though, as I feel the problem lies with the balls...they just don't curve down as much. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I do believe that by changing equipment if one so desires, one can get to a point where fewer changes have to made to one's technique. OF course, there will be a tradeoff somewhere in the spin/speed combination, but it all depends on what one is looking for.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Continuing to repeat that high-test H3 is nothing like Tenergy doesn't make it true. Not unlike Yinhe's Moon/Suns, the seeming initial tack quickly turns to near non-tack rather close to the gummier euro rubbers. OTOH, nobody outside the CNT & friends can get the best stuff with faster sponges anyway so it's a moot point. Grip-S comes somewhat close with its Haifu topsheet on euro sponge. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Grip S not like Tenergy either. I have hit with that also.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Baal, he is just trying to say that Tenergy has a grippy topsheet that can be compared in some ways to Chinese rubber tackineas. That's the most charitable interpretation of his position. That he continues to push the limits of such comparisons with words such as gummy and sticky isn't helpful, but let's leave it at that.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Again, to you nothing is like anything else as long as it's not convenient, which makes it a mystery why you refer to tacky as one homogenous entity when not even H3 is identical. Upon reflection, I guess it's not a mystery at all. > Baal, he is just trying to say that Tenergy has a grippy topsheet that can be compared in some ways to Chinese rubber tackineas. It's not as if grippy / tacky are somehow dichotomous properties but rather terms for end of a spectrum. Of course you already figured this out in the link to your own comment above but forget it when it's convenient. Edited by AgentHEX - 03/23/2015 at 3:26pm |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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This is so funny, I just recall in this other thread these rubbers are apparently so close that playing plastic ball with Big Dipper is like cell with T05.
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70786&PID=862845#862845 But to be fair Baal also considers plastic is nothing like cell. It's a real mystery how euro players ever managed to play with them. These chinese players are switching between Tenergy and upend H3 like it's nothing but I guess you just have to be that good to pull it off. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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AgentHex,
Pick up a ball with a grippy rubber like Tenergy 05. When you do it, let me know so I can send you a check for being wrong. There is a reason why many Europeans do not use Chinese type rubbers or sponges. Tacky rubbers hold the ball so much that hitting and smashing are negatively affected. Even serving feels different. That's the adjustment many people are unwilling to make and Baal is pointing that out. No one switches like it is nothing. Everyone uses it for a period, adjusts to the changes, and finds a comfort level. Only players who are playing at a low enough level that details do not matter or who are so much better than their opponents that they can beat them with cellphones or hard bat don't care about the differences. It took me a month of using Big Dipper while using T05 simultaneously to commit to it. Maybe that detail eludes you. Edited by NextLevel - 03/23/2015 at 4:07pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Sure, it's so different when it's convenient and so similar when convenient. Anyone who's used these modest tack rubber knows they don't pick up a ball either after initial use so it's unclear who this weaseling is supposed to fool.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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So you are saying Big Dipper is a modest tack rubber? Or you have something else in mind? Technique defines this sport but differences in equipment matter. What you call weaseling is teasing out the nuances of the differences. It takes playing at a certain level to appreciate them. Edited by NextLevel - 03/23/2015 at 4:13pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Many of the lower tack rubbers do not pick up the ball. I haven't tried specifically with Dipper, but apparently it's fairly close to T05 according to this NextLevel guy. Personally I think the Moon/Sun's in their lineup are closer but it's his words not mine.
Edited by AgentHEX - 03/23/2015 at 4:19pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I have written extensively on Big D elsewhere so I will clarify one more time and ask that you please stop misrepresenting me willfully. 1. I prefer my performance with Big Dipper to my performance with Tenergy 05 with the plastic ball. 2. For the price difference and since I play close to the table, I don't have any reason to test T05 at the moment. 3. Big Dipper especially in 38 deg has a slightly springier sponge than most tacky rubbers. That makes playing off the table compared to most Chinese rubbers easier. 4. Big Dipper is significantly tacky. It might not be initially apparent but it becomes very much so if you use the rubber. 5. Big Dipper is for people who like tacky rubbers but are put off by the effort to use the hard sponged ones. It is easier to use and block with though whether it suits a particular person will depend on what they are looking for. Euro rubber lovers may still find it too slow on hits and blocks and tacky rubber lovers may find it too fast, especially on serves and touch strokes. I recommend it to T05 users not because it plays like T05 but because of the cost of admission and my experience. Some like it, some hate it. Edited by NextLevel - 03/23/2015 at 4:40pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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"Sure, it's so different when it's convenient and so similar when convenient."
This is an esp hilarous touch: It takes playing at a certain level to appreciate them. So Samsonov and the CNT moves between these perfectly fine, but it takes Baal & NL's level to really bring out the considerable differences (for now). |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I have quoted Samsonov on this already, so that last bit of trolling needs no further comment.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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I've already replied to that comment by noting he plays no worse and if anything perhaps better with grip-s so please stop pretending that didn't happen.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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The question was not whether he played worse or better, but whether a period of adjustment was required and whether there were distinct preferences based on technique, rubbers one learned with etc. We are still allowed to take his opinion on what he is more comfortable with seriously, even if you want to ignore it. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Given there was no drop in performance going to grip-s I'll let the results speak for itself.
Of course no rubbers are identical just as the new ball isn't identical to old one and there are always preferences, just instances of similar enough that people who care to adapt to marginal differences have no trouble playing to same level. Again, I'll let you speak to the specific similarity between Tenergy/tacky: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70493&PID=862615&title=has-tenergy-been-surpassed#862615 |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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And you interpreted that to mean that Tenergy 05 and Hurricane play similarly? Now I know why we have a problem. I speaking to an idiot. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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I interpret that to mean you'll say anything to fit the situation. Two rubbers are similar when it suits your justification to change for new ball, and now apparently they're nothing alike.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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If they were alike, why would I need to change? (Jeopardy music) Oh, because I said that they performed similarly for me in terms of feel under different circumstances! But again, let's regurgitate (goes with your description of my posts as vomit):
It's fairly clear that I am making a distinction between surface friction and surface adhesion, which are related but are different. I'm saying that surface adhesion can slow down strokes to the point where people find the rubbers different. So what is being debated here is the actual properties of H3 National and whether they are really sticky or just grippy. In my experience, something that is tacky will not play like Tenergy - it will just be too slow.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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> If they were alike, why would I need to change?
According to you they ostensibly differ similarly to cell vs plastic, which is relatively minor in objective metrics. > In my experience, something that is tacky will not play like Tenergy - it will just be too slow. The pertinent original claim was that the really good H3 is closer to Tenergy than folks who've only used commercial might realize. It's not too slow nor immensely tacky. Of course this became controversial with a given crowd same as if I said 2+2=4. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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No need to revisit this, which has been discussed elsewhere, with you on one side of a very long fence, with everyone else on the other. I have also emphasized that the feel of the stroke was important to me.
Yes, the disagreement was resolved by your producing evidence to show that they were wrong. Baal is likely going off the fact that he has tested blades of high level players who use good H3. Maybe he is wrong as to what he tested. But I would think that the discussion would begin with methodical dissection of what real H3 is like and who has used it and can speak to it, as opposed to repeating what has already being said which demonstrates or illuminates nothing.
I mean, here is one poster on this thread. It's up to you to explain why he is arguing that 2+2 is not equal to 4.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/23/2015 at 6:51pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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> No need to revisit this, which has been discussed elsewhere, with you on
one side of a very long fence, with everyone else on the other.
It's worth revisiting to compare your own description on one side then compared to the other now. This has nothing to do with me. > It's up to you to explain why he is arguing that 2+2 is not equal to 4. Maybe he's been using the TTNPP blue sponge special. The differences are quite tangible to people who care about these sort of equipment things. popperlocker's description of physical properties is accurate, even the Provs are faster and less tacky. Just to clarify the stock h3 sponges are still slower than Tenergy sponge, if they're the same the the h3 one has been boosted/tuned. Edited by AgentHEX - 03/23/2015 at 7:11pm |
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Clarence247
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This is a good point! Interesting question!
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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Clarence247
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If there is a problem with spin due to the plastic ball - might this lead to more players trying to revert to SP ? I mean if inverted rubbers are shooting loop kills off the table....why not just smack that ball with SP where the throw puts the ball on the table NOT the spin?
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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The pro/tuned H3 is still not going to be as fast as the pro/tuned Tenergy, not that the recent XX/ML change has much to do with plastic ball anyway.
A larger ball is going to have better aero as long as you can spin it hard enough. I did an analysis on this a while back and basically very physical players are going to have an advantage. Folks familiar with the 38->40 change can probably verify this. |
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