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Loop-kill against block |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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Posted: 11/23/2015 at 9:03pm |
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For several months I have been trying to develop a real finishing shot (a loop-kill against block). I have a pretty good opening loop with medium speed and a steady loop against block with good spin and medium speed. Neither one of these shots is fast enough to be a real finishing shot. I can win a point when opponent does not account for the amount of spin or if I give a really good fake of which direction I am hitting. I just don't seem to be able to hit that fast loop-kill that gets past the opponent before he is really able to put a racket on the ball (or at least only reacts enough for a weak late block). Right now when I try to switch from a loop of block to a loop-kill of block, I try to set the blade at a more neutral angle (just barely closed instead of the 40deg for regular loop) and not take the racket back quite as low as the regular loop so that I have a slightly flatter swing plane (but still an upward one). What I always seem to get is a very light (almost flat) drive that goes off the end of the table go straight or even slightly upward. When I try closing the blade and keeping the flatter swing plane the ball goes into the net. If I try to keep the neutral blade angle and swing more upward I get spin, but lose the speed on the ball. In a couple of lessons I took the coach kept telling me to spin the ball more, but every time I got spin on the ball it was slow and when it was fast it had no topspin and went long. He would demonstrate and his shots would be faster and seemingly as spinny as his regular loop. We just never could figure out how to get me to do what he was doing. I have worked more on my own and it just seems I hit either medium speed and spinny or fast and almost flat. Even when I land the loop-kill I can tell it is a lot closer to a flat-kill than it is to a real loop-kill. I like my steady loop and even a couple of coaches have complimented the stroke so I do not think I need to make changes in that stroke. What changes do any of you make when going from hitting a loop of block to hitting a fast finishing type loop-kill of a weak block? Mark PS - I will try to get some video on Tue or Wed. |
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MindTrip
Super Member Joined: 02/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 412 |
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When I loop kill, I close the blade even more (60-70 degrees) and brush near the top edge of the ball. The ball comes off with more speed and spin than a standard loop and the trajectory is much lower in comparison. Loop kill vs block requires finesse, as the incoming ball has little spin for you to work against.
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GMan4911
Silver Member Joined: 08/31/2012 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 830 |
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Maybe you need to focus more on placement. Like any other skill in TT, you need to be able to do it subconsciously. One of the things that I work on during practice matches is moving my opponent around to get him to give me a low quality return. That gives me more opportunities for the loop-kill. Edited by GMan4911 - 11/23/2015 at 10:53pm |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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Against underspin you do have a very high quality loop kill if the ball is not too high.
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wilkinru
Silver Member Joined: 04/28/2015 Location: Las Vegas Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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I'm running into a similar problem. I've decided to just continue to develop my loop. Right now really working hard on the legs and torso twisting to get that more involved in the forehand. I'll re-evaluate after my loop has improved.
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1534 |
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I'd say the footwork is different. For the medium speed loop, you have the weight transfer, hip turn, and the foot movement during the stroke is slight. For the loop kill, the weight transfer is more extreme causing your left foot (possibly both feet) to leave the ground and step forward.
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CroNone
Member Joined: 09/13/2015 Location: NZ Status: Offline Points: 59 |
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To get that speed into the loop kill it's all about weight moving forward. You'll have to be in position with your right foot back (righty) and your weight on that foot. At your back swing, you will start pushing with your leg to transfer the weight to your left leg as well as rotating your upper body. You really want to push forward so that your bat is flying forward towards your target. Because of this extra forward speed, you will need a light contact on the ball so that the spin will bring the ball downwards rather than hitting it long.
Imagine someone throwing a discus. They are using body rotation and body weight forward to get maximum speed on the throw. This example is a bit extreme but you can see Ma Long's weight coming forward |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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GM, Placement is actually one of the stronger parts of my game. It just seems that often I use 2 or 3 shots to get a weaker ball and then one of two things happens. I go for a fast finishing shot and miss or I land a slower, spinny shot with good placement but it is run down by my opponent and returned. I might have them on the ropes for a couple of shots, but I don't put it away and eventually they counter-attack with a ball that goes right by me before I even have time to react. Opponent's often just decide to guess where I am going to hit the finishing shot. If they guess right my shot is so weak that it is not a matter of them just getting the ball back, they usually kill the ball past me. I would at least like to have a strong enough finishing shot that even if they guess right they do not have so much success swinging away and hitting winners back at me. Seems like most of the time that I make a weak return, balls are just hit past me. I want to do that to others. Maybe it is just that my reaction to their finishing shots is much slower than theirs to mine (anticipation, distance from table, footwork, etc) so I am fooled into thinking their shots are a lot faster. I just do not know. Mark - A turtle who wants to be a hare |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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One type of loop kill is just a larger stroke with a further to the left finishing point (if you are a right hander). If you are loop killing a block straighten your arm, loop the ball but finish at the very least over your eyes to your left shoulder if you are unhealthy arthritic specimen like myself and as far as your left hip if you are a true physical specimen.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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nv42
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2013 Location: india Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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To me, it's all about reading the return as quick as ppossible and then quick footwork so that I have enough time to get in good weight transfer and hit the ball somewhere near the top of the bounce. Also staying really low helps me easily keep my bat angle closed enough to have the ball wizzz past the opp without having it flying it out when I swing all out. Perfect weight transfer as well as keeping yua core stable(eexactly why many pros make weird noises while looping hard, they breath out to tighten the core) enough on contact is what most people don't do ( i havnt mastered it completely yet lol lazy me).
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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You need to commit to making an aggressive stroke, keeping the trajectory low and landing the ball deep on the other side of the table. Yes, keep the paddle angle more closed and concentrate on spinning the ball aggressively by accelerating through the ball as much as possible. If it's against a block, then you naturally need to come through the ball with your arm swing at a flatter angle and "go over" the ball more than hitting more upwards like you would do with a slower, spiny loop.
I do the same thing as you often, where my natural reaction is to hit the loop in a more controlled fashion, i.e. with a higher arc and landing the ball more in the center of the opponent's side of the table. Instead, think about "loop hard, keep it low, and go deep".
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Victor_the_cleaner
Gold Member Joined: 12/26/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1428 |
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This is similar to my problem. When i rip it real hard with open paddle i do make a lot of spin, but in my case the ball first makes an annoying flat jump before starting the loop trajectory. My derivative problems are same as yours too. If I don't hit too hard or use more brush the ball bends around the net, but a 2000+ will have enough time to get to it and too many come back. This usually happens on a poor block where the ball is defenseless, not much spin and comfy, and I feel I have to crush it and either outright win or never lose initiative again. However after a 'controlled' kill my opponent is often able to get back in the point and many times win it.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Mjamja,
If looping with placement is really your strength, I recommend you aim for the white lines and play the ball wide with sidespin. That is usually my preference. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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Next Level, I have progressed past aiming for the white lines. I now aim for the places where a little of the white paint has chipped off the edge of the table. Maybe that is why I have so much trouble at Nationals and the Open. No chipped paint on those new tables to line up for my deadly placement. Mark - Who knows there are 3 important things in TT: placement, placement, and placement.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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People return those shots?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Victor_the_cleaner
Gold Member Joined: 12/26/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1428 |
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LOL, i burst in my cube here... : ) . That was my sentiment when i read his advice but I could never put it like that : )
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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At least this one is public.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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Almost never returned because: 1. Almost never land 2. Any player over 1400 knows that it is ridiculous to go for most of the wide placements I try so when one does land they are caught completely flat-footed. The running inside out Fh from just outside the Bh corner to about 1/3 way up the Bh side-line from the net is my most spectacular shot. I am sad to admit that the above is no joke and I do try that shot way more often than I have any business doing. Mark - A true legend in his own mind
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Victor_the_cleaner
Gold Member Joined: 12/26/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1428 |
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can SOMEBODY tell me what is the meaning of this Mark? I hate when I feel stupid!
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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Victor, Mark is my real name. I often close a post with my name and a brief description of myself that is appropriate (and hopefully humorous) to the content of the post. Mark - Bringer of knowledge and understanding
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Victor_the_cleaner
Gold Member Joined: 12/26/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1428 |
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Tell me honestly, mjamja, do you know anything about this guy
Alan E. Schmidt |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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Victor, I have not talked with my twin brother for many years. Family squabbles can escalate quickly and last for ages. I had no idea what he was up to. Thank you for providing the link. It is good to see that he has turned his life around and become a productive, contributing member of society. Mark - Who's BS gauge is showing that he is full of it. PS - Seriously never heard of him or his reviews before. I guess we should get back to real TT talk.
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Victor_the_cleaner
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yeah. Sure.
Try this, the paddle is open, like for a flat smack, but when you drive through the ball you don't go through like for a smack, but just slightly upward. This shot can only be executed with full commitment and serious power. Perfect paddle angle and perfect arm motion angle will not work with less power. Same shot that appears to be mostly speed and no spin and too flat to bend around the net becomes spiny enough to bend.
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mts388
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I'm with mind trip. Close the paddle as much as you can, then put your whole body into it. Try contacting the ball further from the body.
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Spin83
Member Joined: 01/28/2013 Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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I would advise, again, people not to watch Henzell video because he doesn't make those kind of strokes in a real match. They are much better, otherwise he wouldn't stand a chance with that shitty technique you see in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyxCcKnUX_E you can see for yourself..watch his bh stroke also kind advice to people who know little about table table..please don't teach others things you don't know nor understand.
Edited by Spin83 - 11/25/2015 at 4:17am |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Stealing my line - it's okay. In fact, anyone can watch the match and other matches and see that William does make those kinds of strokes. At pro level, there is a premium on speed and time so you don't always get to see the ball curl, but it is there. The quality of opponent and the incoming ball also makes a huge difference. This is probably a better match to make the analysis. Anyone can check William's ball placement and the kinds of strokes he uses. You also don't know much about the OP, Spin83. He is not one of your juniors. He is not going to powerloop the ball all the time, even if he wants to.
Edited by NextLevel - 11/25/2015 at 10:19am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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BRS
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This is totally OT, but how do people get good spin on the kind of punch serve (or whatever it is called) that Justin Han is using in the video above?
It doesn't look like there is any wrist movement at all, not the direction the paddle is facing at contact. Are there tutorial videos on that serve? It makes reverse sidespin, which would be cool, and doesn't appear to require full range of motion in the shoulder and wrist.
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NextLevel
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It's partly the body rotation. That's the part that is key that you do don't see given what you are focused on. Also, you don't need a full range of motion in the wrist.
Edited by NextLevel - 11/25/2015 at 10:34am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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I use a similar serve a lot. The spin is generated primarily through the "stabbing" arm motion, so it is up to the server to contact thin and fast for heavy spin or thick and flat for no spin, etc. The role of body rotation in controlling the amount of spin generation during this serve is minimal, instead it, along with body angle wrt the table at the starting position, is crucial for controlling serve placement and subtle changes in bat-ball contact location, which affects the types of spin produced. |
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smackman
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If I'm training a newbie,
and they loop the first one then I block, they will often loop long the next so I make them do a hit and that is very successful
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