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Best blade for a beginner

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    Posted: 07/24/2013 at 7:45pm
Hey, guys.

My friend is looking to start playing table tennis. He's never owned a decent blade/rubbers before -- I've recommended Mark V rubbers, and I'm just needing a good recommendation for a blade.

Any suggestions?

Cheers,
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2013 at 7:48pm
Gambler Arylate Carbon, flared handle (if he chooses to play with handshake grip)
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2013 at 10:15pm
Blade - I recommend a 5 ply for beginners

Rubber - I recommend Sriver-EL, Mark V, or any other good none tacky general rubber.

Unless he has a style of play that suggest otherwise.  For example he keeps blocking on his BH and has no talent for looping on the BH.  Then short pips.

Or he's really really old and cranky and doesn't like to rally...then short pips on both side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2013 at 10:17pm
Why do people even bother buying fast equipment. It's not like you play better when you can't even keep it on the table. MarkV used to be a pro rubber, and while 40mm ball is bit slower, it's not as if amateurs all of a sudden can't easy hit hard enough to launch the ball halfway across the hall never the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2013 at 10:31pm
Mark V isn't really that fast anymore compare to the other rubbers out on the market.

Some coaches have beginners start with Tenergy and Bluefire on a composite blade...

But if player is self taught I recommend starting with a light 5 ply and any good qualify non-tacky inverted rubber.  728, Xiom, Donic, Butterfly, etc...take your pick.  

Sure they can go with composites and newer spring sponge as well.  

Most beginners wouldn't know the difference anyways, since their style of play doesn't push the equipment to the limits.  Not like the ball is suddenly going to loop itself onto the table 100% of the time because of the equipment.  

Let the player be happy, not everyone is going world champ, but at least they have the equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2013 at 10:46pm
MarkV like most classic pro rubber was fast enough for advanced level amateurs. Loopers would glue but except for people with a specific type of game (open loop to rally every point) even that doesn't make much diff, ie. lose a point maybe in rally, pick up one on soft/touch shots.

The equipment changed at the highest levels because actual pros who do this for a living would glue to the max, and the new stuff was created to replace the extreme elasticity of that effect. The game also changed somewhat at highest level because of the loop-drive so everyone wants to power through every shot regardless of their effectiveness at it. So even at lower ranks it became an arms race.

Some coaches do want their kids to win that race, and using tensor/carbon is OK on simple rallies as long as opponents oblige (which they often do because everyone wants to play like pro style), but are complete shit at anything else. In a way that's ok because the latest rubbers esp can be so overpowered that as long as you get good enough at topspining anything coming over the table nothing else matters, since at lower level very few play nuances of the game anyway.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2013 at 10:48pm
BTW, this is also why in the US at least the juniors could hold their own again chinese counterparts in rally, but get owned everywhere else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2013 at 11:31pm
There are 729 training rubber or Sriver-FX that very soft sponge for control.  Good for learning counter hitting and putting spin on the ball.  But if the beginner already knows how to attack, might not be a good choice since sponge might bottom out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 12:04am
If money is no option, Donic allplay and mark V both sides in 1.8mm. Best beginner setup on the planet
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 7:17am
adidas challenge light, tibhar samsonov alpha, stiga all around classic or offensive classic, nexy peter pan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PatrickL2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 3:09pm
I would recommend a allround 5-ply wood blade as a start. I think blades such like YASAKA Extra, STIGA Allround Classic and Butterfly Primorac are all decent choices. They are generally more forgiving than a 7-ply blade or a composite blade.


Edited by PatrickL2012 - 07/25/2013 at 3:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 5:16pm
if you want a blade that you don't need to change for 5  years buy Korbel or Timo Boll Spirit. You can get a used in good condition too. Post an add in the For Sale section here and I guarantee you will find one in no time.
For rubbers, just make sure it was released in the last 5 years. Mark V and Sriver are not a good choice in the 30+ price range. It doesn't matter if they are good enough. What matters is that there are 1000 rubbers better than them for that price. 
puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Timo Boll Spirit....Mark V and Sriver are not a good choice in the 30+ price range. It doesn't matter if they are good enough. What matters is that there are 1000 rubbers better than them for that price. 


LOL, noob w/ TBS and tensors. It's like introductory membership to the forever-1500 EJ club.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote machmach_3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 7:25pm
I would Suggest stiga clipper and he will stick with it till the end of the world
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 8:06pm
Assiduous, I know a guy that went from beginner to us-2250 in two years on the donic allplay. Who's done that with a TBS ?. He's still improving and still using the allplay. An alternative would be the Stiga allround classic or in a faster blade the yasaka extra, nothing faster than the extra please

Edited by bluebucket - 07/25/2013 at 8:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 10:32pm
and I know.. I know this one guy.. who can do back flips.. and he can eat 10 sausages in 2 minutes.. and... and.. I know.. this guy who came from Shaolin.. and he uses this donic allplay..  
yukk. what a pathetic argument. Bluebucket KNOWS SOMEBODY. Case closed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 10:38pm
He is right, though. People who improve their game significant despite fast equipment are the exception not the norm (and attributable more to endless hours of training), and also more of a recent phenomenon w/ development of a very specific overpowering loop drive style.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 10:38pm
Maybe it's because I play at a high level club. Everyone will tell you you can't play with a slow blade. Tell someone at my club TBS is fast. Ha. What blade exactly on this green earth has better control than TBS? All these kids that the coaches around are teaching.. David has IF ZLC, Michael has Xiom Zetro Quad.. all the kids learn the game with fast blades. TBS is never on the list of fast blades.

Listen, if you are gona be happy hitting around in some basement and beating all challengers in the neighborhood, then this discussion is all pointless. Walmart, Kmart, Appelgren, how does it really matter. If you like how the good players play and want to play like them, slow blades make learning HARDER, not easier. Two weeks and you are used with the new bounce. Then it's just learning the shots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2013 at 11:03pm
Well, that's funny because I'm guessing your club is at a lessor level than the chinese national team.

US TT coaching is notoriously bad, and the results speak for themselves. Look, I know it's easier to teach/learn the one loop/drive shot, esp when everyone else at the club does it, too, so all the games are just topspin counterrallies asap unless someone screws up.

In fact, the complete lack of diversity in play is exactly the reason for all the hate against "junk" rubbers/styles or anything NOT strictly confined within very limited and trite boundary when the real reason is a generation of idiots who don't understand spin much despite what should be respectable ratings.

BTW, those very high level players can use composite because they already have incredible touch from a lifetime of training. Eg, some notable high level coaches use it because they get sick of excessive exertion just to hit balls back. Entirely different story to average amateur.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 12:43am
A tried and true formula has always been medium speed blades with medium speed/spin rubbers for beginners. Donic Allplay is a great beginners blade and can function well into medium levels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crackfst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 12:57am
TBS isnt even that fast. By far the worst are the beginners take a Schlager carbon + T05max/T05max :D

Still i wouldnt give a beginner a TBS, too expensive.

Give them an ALL+ to OFF- blade(doesent matter if all wood of composite) that is cheap, like galaxy clones dhs blades

And for rubbers mark V is good Sriver is good, cheaper chinese euro style rubbers would easily do it too though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silva7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 12:59am
personally i think the Mark V is a slightly outdated rubber for beginners starting up now. reason being is that the "built in speed glue" rubbers on the market can produce better spin, speed and in some aspect control as well. 
i think a beginner should start off with a 5 ply all wood blade like Stiga OC with desto f2/f3 or xiom vega europe both sides. these two tensor rubbers provide great control and feel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 1:05am
A $4 Donic Appelgren Level 100 bat is not worse than any old tempered Alser or Bengtsson as far as feel and touch are concerned. And certainly better for a beginner than TBS, Amultart, or T-1, T-2, T-3, etc. up to T-11+ self-mortars. Chinese clones are ridiculously fast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 1:52am
I wouldn't take much advice from people using fast blades that have never progressed past beginner levels. There are three groups of people using the TBS.

Professionals, high level highly trained juniors and the perennial hopeless.
That's it, everyone else that plays over us2000 long term uses all wood blades in the all to -off range. Table tennis is more enjoyable the more skill you have so you really want to do yourself a favour and not hamper your development with the wrong blade
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 2:11am
Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

high level highly trained juniors and the perennial hopeless.


Personally I question if this is a good idea. It kind of works at least in the US because the country's mid-tier is full of wonky players who've "mastered" their basement styles, and the easiest way to power past them is do so literally by learning the one shot and ignoring their spins. This puts people in this dilemma where they then have to go back to learn the basic touch shots, but that's not advantageous against others in their position because they can just counterrally between themselves rather than try out weak short game where they lose for a period before being able to use in tournament.

It's just a bad situation all around IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 2:19am
this is a silly thread.... 

people who are using composite hyper blades that aren't that good, players that stand by the "slow blades are all you need" crap because it makes them feel superior for some stupid reason.. 

who cares? A blade is just a blade. Any blade you use is fine. Sure some are gonna damage development if they are absurdly fast, but who out of us is seriously developing and becoming a professional or top level player. But come on, you can't really think that players stuck in the mid range of under 2000 are there because of the fast blade they use. The same dudes are gonna be stuck there regardless because they don't get a chance to play enough, not because of their equipment. People who tote the slow blades or you're a chump campaign are no better than EJ's. 

It's like to be considered good by these guys you have to be an all around player like the last great white people of the sport. Yeah, you have to learn to earn the point if you are a serious developing player, and in that case, please use a slower blade with regular rubber. Any other case, an offensive player at 1600 is no fun to watch, but it's still a playing style. It wont change with an allaround classic. It's their playing style. Getting better is only on practice, that's it. Just like someone who blocks at the same level. Sure, the points are longer. But those guys can still get beat by a guy who can only play a few balls in a row really hard. It just depends. But becoming an all-around player doesn't automatically mean you're a superior player. It's just a different point of view. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 2:36am
Originally posted by crackfst crackfst wrote:

Give them an ALL+ to OFF- blade(doesent matter if all wood of composite) that is cheap, like galaxy clones dhs blades


Yeah, if anything galaxy mc-2 stiga OC clone is better quality than real stiga OC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 2:53am
Originally posted by beeray1 beeray1 wrote:

this is a silly thread.... 

people who are using composite hyper blades that aren't that good, players that stand by the "slow blades are all you need" crap because it makes them feel superior for some stupid reason.. 


Here's the thing. A good ALL blade is not slow. It's only "slow" because of ridiculous new EJ fodder. Recall an OFF blade is designed for player with the skill to sustain attacks, not people piddling around at well under 2k which is the vast majority of players in the US. The average usatt rating (and most amateurs don't even play sanctioned tournaments regularly) is only 1400.

Quote
who cares? A blade is just a blade. Any blade you use is fine. Sure some are gonna damage development if they are absurdly fast, but who out of us is seriously developing and becoming a professional or top level player. But come on, you can't really think that players stuck in the mid range of under 2000 are there because of the fast blade they use. The same dudes are gonna be stuck there regardless because they don't get a chance to play enough, not because of their equipment. People who tote the slow blades or you're a chump campaign are no better than EJ's. 


They are stuck at low level because they can't put the ball on the table with any regularity. Of course fast blades they can't even swing with are hindering their process. It's like they're not even playing table tennis but some "sport" where you try your hardest to attack caress the ball so it has less than 50% chance of flying off randomly.

Quote
It's like to be considered good by these guys you have to be an all around player like the last great white people of the sport. Yeah, you have to learn to earn the point if you are a serious developing player, and in that case, please use a slower blade with regular rubber. Any other case, an offensive player at 1600 is no fun to watch, but it's still a playing style. It wont change with an allaround classic. It's their playing style. Getting better is only on practice, that's it. Just like someone who blocks at the same level. Sure, the points are longer. But those guys can still get beat by a guy who can only play a few balls in a row really hard. It just depends. But becoming an all-around player doesn't automatically mean you're a superior player. It's just a different point of view.


ALL blade does not imply all-round play, it just means you can put the ball on the table reliably enough to develop a game. I can guarantee that 1600 blocker is much less skilled than the 1600 attacker who often actually has a decent enough loop in practice, but shitty footwork and a touchy racket so never gets much of a chance to use it. At that point you're just wasting time developing "skills" that are useless, so the whole point of the slow racket crowd is to at least give you a chance to apply that aggression.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/26/2013 at 3:14am
A blade is far far more important than most of you guys realise, it absolutely can make the difference between playing twenty years and being rated 1600 and playing twenty years and being rated 2200 with everything else being the same, it's not something you might see in a day or a week or even a year but over the long term the players using good blades will naturally rise higher up than those who have a bad blade. That might be the extreme example between a carbon blade and a "slow" blade but it's fact. Using a blade low on feel is like playing deaf and playing deaf is not far behind playing blind. Less sensors make you learn slower, more mistakes with shorter rallies make you learn slower, the game is ridiculously hard to learn as it is. Why deliberately make it harder just because some company trying to scam you out of money for stupid blade X has told you a large sweet spot (which almost doesn't even exist) is a good thing (it's not). How are you ever going to get decent variation unless you have a blade which can play both fast and dead slow
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