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FH Forward (Chinese) Loop |
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gatorling
Super Member Joined: 06/09/2010 Location: Florida, USA Status: Offline Points: 381 |
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I think it's a confusion of terminology. My coach calls what is described above as a "flat hit".
Flat contact with the ball (80-90 degrees). Drive the ball into the sponge and use the spin imparted by the follow through to bring it safely back down on the table. I'd say the biggest difference between this stroke and the top spin /loop is that with top spin/loop I feel like I'm carrying the ball more. Actually lifting it a lot more and driving it into my sponge a lot less. The sound is also very different. For the flat hit, it's a smack like sound. For the top-spin/loop it's definitely a brushing feeling/sound. |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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It's about time!
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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This so called "Forward (Chinese) Loop" is just a power loop.
In Chinese, the shot is called 前冲弧圈球, "forward rush/charge curved/arc ball." 前冲 "forward rush/charge" describes the aggressive forward jump of the ball after the bounce. 弧圈球 "curved/arc ball" is the general Chinese term for loops. It describes the pronounced arc traced by the ball that is characteristic of loops. This power loop is used against weak shots whenever a more aggressive drive or smash is not feasible. Those weak shots include weak underspin shots like weak pushes and weak chops which are high and/or with little spin. Keep in mind that is "weak" on the professional level. Watch any attacking player, Chinese or non-Chinese against JSH, they spin loop (with a more pronounced low to high swing) against his stronger chops, but power loop (with a more forward swing but STILL low to high) his weaker replies. The Chinese players power loop with their trademark "straight arm or relatively straighter arm" accompanied by little or no elbow snap. The European players power loop as well with their "Euro loop." In fact, CCTV commentators regularly use the term 前冲弧圈球 to describe ANYBODY's power loop, not just those of the Chinese players. The term is used to describe a shot, not how the player is producing the shot, whether "Chinese" or "European" style. That video of Ma Lin from the previous page is an example of a power loop against underspin. It's an advanced shot that requires high blade speed. Anyone who is not skilled enough will just dump the ball into the net. The essential thing to understand is, as a looping strokes, the power loop or 前冲弧圈球 still requires a strong BRUSHING component at contact, not just hitting through the ball. Here are a number of super slow motion footage, some of which show Ma Long's power loop. I hope they illustrate my point. Pay attention to the blade angle and swing angle. |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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This might be the guide for looping from away from the table or backspin, if it says that kind of angle. I think this is from the dttw forum Malin user, or so maybe typos when copying and pasting. I agree with the beginning post. Its kinda like in tennis, you want racket speed, so you continue the stroke past the mid point of your body to avoid deacceleration. This is more for like a power loop situation. Sometimes you still want to use the more condensed "old" stroke when theres less time.
Edited by kenneyy88 - 07/07/2011 at 1:22pm |
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mercuur
Super Member Joined: 01/06/2004 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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De-acellerate and accellerate are not opposites. If accelleration decreases there is a turning point where it becomes zero and then negatively it would become a slow down as opposite to accelleration. Before that happens it,s still accelleration and accelleration means increase for speed (not acccelleration of speed). You don,t have to avoid de-accelleration for that. Opposite to de-accelleration would (or could) be "accellerating-through" a phrase used in the manual. Edited by mercuur - 07/08/2011 at 6:15pm |
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mercuur
Super Member Joined: 01/06/2004 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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You need to accellerate through for when the rebound starts (rubber.
ball etc all compress and then rebound) The ball accellerates from the blade
(the wood surface)with the rebound. Accellerating through with the blade
keeps both the pressure and contact and also grip
between the ball and the topsheet. It,s essential for these strokes and
players. Not accellerating through would loose a big part of the
rebound energy and control as well.
The flex rebound from the blade works different in this then from the sponge. During the rebound of the sponge and the ball the pressure to the blade and between topsheet and ball decreases but the rebound of flex helps to accellerate through because that rebound is to the ball and helps to keep longer pressure and contact to the ball. Edited by mercuur - 07/08/2011 at 6:19pm |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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Again, some pretty good super slow motion footage of RSM's Jpen FH in between points here. It should be pretty similar to the "Chinese" PH FH loop, if not identical. See if you can identify in these replays any elements mentioned in the OP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNlfyD-qbHg&feature=fvsr Edited by racquetsforsale - 07/09/2011 at 1:24am |
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kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
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deacceleratede·ac·cel·er·ateverb (used without object), verb (used with object), -at·ed, -at·ing. to decelerate. decelerate-to decrease the velocity ofEdited by kenneyy88 - 07/09/2011 at 2:33am |
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Krantz
Super Member Joined: 05/14/2009 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 276 |
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As far as I understand these decelerate and accelerate through can both refer to scenario when you still gain speed during a stroke. Compare three cases: 1)At second 1 your racket speed is 5m/s, at second 2 it's 10 m/s, at second 3 it's 15 m/s. 2)At second 1 it's 5m/s, at 2 it's 10 m/s, at 3 it's 20 m/s. 3)At second1 it's 5 m/s, at it's 10 m/s, at 3 it's 12 m/s. In case one you just accelerate – the speed gain is the same during 3 seconds interval. Case two describes accelerating through: you gain more speed between 2s and 3s point then between 1s and 2s. Case 2 show de-accelerating: your speed gain between 2s and 3s is lower than between 1s and 2s, but you are still accelerating. There must be an inconsistency between 'popular' meaning of the word and its ‘scientific’ application. Edited by Krantz - 07/09/2011 at 7:31am |
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mercuur
Super Member Joined: 01/06/2004 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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I understand Decelerating is not accelerating less (decreasing accelleration) but the opposite of accelerating. But climbing a slope during a walk putting more effort in makes time shorter so it is truly accelerating for the ratio distance to time. For the period of climbing as well as for the whole walk. It,s accelerating against the decelaration from the slope (or a sudden wind). Edited by mercuur - 07/12/2011 at 6:51pm |
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HowToPlayChineseLoop
Super Member Joined: 02/06/2012 Location: 0 Status: Offline Points: 266 |
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Rack, I love you.
You are my coach...
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Anderni
Super Member Joined: 08/23/2012 Status: Offline Points: 399 |
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Does that 999$ PG7 do a nice Chinese loop?
Edited by Anderni - 01/18/2013 at 1:40pm |
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Anderni
Super Member Joined: 08/23/2012 Status: Offline Points: 399 |
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CCTV commentators are knowledgeable about the game. And they're usually old enough to have seen Kong Linghui in his prime. Edited by Anderni - 01/18/2013 at 1:41pm |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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Really interesting thread about looping. Worth re-activating...
Edited by kindof99 - 03/21/2021 at 10:32pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Lol what is this Necro about...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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I think this drive loop technique will become more popular with the larger balls and more hybrid rubbers coming out.
Any update on the technique after ten years ?
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mon22
Gold Member Joined: 03/05/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1174 |
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I tell you,
My old teammate and close friend and competed at the same level 1600-1800 and have amazing rallies based on our styles of play - usually splitting matches Hitter (w smooth on both sides) vs me (all around spin based player) After the ball change, I could RARELY beat him, and he shot up to 1900 and broke 2100 while I struggled
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I am a total Newb. Come at me!
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I think spin is still really important now to ensure consistency.... But yes you definitely need to drive more into the ball these days. Isn't it like an easy fix? Most ppl I know can adjust their brush/hit ratio pretty easily...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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I tried to turn the paddle after hitting the ball, and I felt that my shoulder was in pain.
My understanding is after hitting the ball, you want to turn your forearm and wrist to cover the ball. Maybe I tried too hard, but is it easy to injure your shoulder this way? I have never had shoulder problem with brush loop, but drive loop seems to be different.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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You turn only your "wrist" - in reality the rotation is in the forearm not the wrist although it looks like a wrist action. The scientific name for the exact movement is called forearm pronation (for the FH) and supination (for the BH), I've put some videos together in the past to show that exact movement. It is a key component of a good topspin stroke and all pros use it on both wings. If your elbow jerks around during the stroke (especially the lifting of the elbow which is a big no-no) it can lead to the shoulder being in a bad position which can lead to impingement.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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Also the index finger plays a very important role. I felt if I can use my index finger to apply force toward the paddle head, I can create much more spin. Also moving index finger help to turn the wrist and the forearm forward (snap). I am surprised that the index finger can do so much difference.
Still experimenting..
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yes, the index finger pressure is crucial too. The index finger pressure + pronation works best together imo for the FH and thumb pressure + supination for the BH.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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Can you perform this drive-loop for slow spinny loop? I think it is hard to execute as the hitting part of the drive-loop will usually produce a fast ball.
So for the slow spinny loop, you will still need the brush loop, right?
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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If you know how to wrap around the ball well (forearm pronation/supination), you can adjust the spin-speed ratio of your loops easily. You still have to brush on every single loop including drive loops to maintain consistency....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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How about backhand?
Do you also do the drive-loop for backhand? hitting first and then loop? Coach Ma Kaixuan mentions that to loop against a backspin return with backhand, one has to hit first and then turn wrist to the right side (for right handed player). This is kind of the same as the forehand drive-loop.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yes BH is the same concept. The feeling is the same, you have to hit it into the sponge then wrap around the ball.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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Another year passes, fun to activate this thread again in case that someone is still interested in the technique.
I feel this is the loop technique for the current decade.
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