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Backhand Punching vs. Looping |
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cls2222
Silver Member Joined: 10/23/2010 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 646 |
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Posted: 04/26/2011 at 1:57am |
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My coach wants me to loop only the balls that I feel confident with and all backspin that I can't receive with my forehand, but with slightly higher dead and topspin balls he wants me to aggressively punch the ball using good placement. This approach is very good, and he told me this, for applying tactics and strategies during a match.
The funny thing is that his coach, who also is a highly respected coach in Europe, during a multiball session, explained to me that I should loop every long ball, only lowering the power to compensate for poor positioning when caught off guard or when I need to make split second adjustments due to a edge/net or kick due to sidespin. My thoughts on this is that looping the ball with my BH, albeit being slower than a punch/straight attack, forces the other player to better position himself for the receive. Punching the ball allows me to more aggressively place the ball in a faster manner than looping, but due to the predictability of the spin, it is rather easy to receive and even counterattack if the opponent manages to get to the ball (if you watch Wang Zeng Yi or He Zhi Wen play, you will see that their opponents are always counterlooping their smashes). For some reason my BH loop has been very inconsistent lately, I have been losing a lot of points during matches due to bad timing and poor position for my BH loop, so I'm really considering taking this BH smash approach into my close to the table game. Note that I'm not proposing an all-out smashing game, but I will be looping all backspin, some balls when I'm far away from the table, and low topspin/dead balls that I feel confident on looping. For slightly higher balls that most players would normally loop, I would aggressively punch the balls deep to the corners or into the players middle. This would be my first basic strategy, I know I can't use this against every player because some players can receive straight attacks easily while other have a problem with looping. I would like to know your thoughts on this approach. Edited by cls2222 - 04/28/2011 at 2:20am |
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Skyline
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It's a good approach IMHO you absolutely don't have to loop every ball. You should watch Waldner and Persson play. They both have a complete backhand, they loop,punch,block,flick,chop lob etc.
Edited by Skyline - 04/26/2011 at 9:14am |
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cls2222
Silver Member Joined: 10/23/2010 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 646 |
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That's true but Waldner and Persson have amazing reading abilities. They also heavily relied on their intuition on the player. In Waldner's interview by Anger_Manager, Waldner stated that he always researched his opponent a great deal before playing. One of the greatest reading abilities of highly experienced players is that they can look at a few points a given player plays out and immediately know his/her playing strategies, strengths/weaknesses, psychological strengths/weaknesses, and timing. That is something only experience, or high level coaching with experienced coaches will give me. Variation is the key but I'm thinking of applying this backhand punch strategy to my game that I use against players I am not very familiar with, which are 90% of the players I play against. If I see that I must loop as punching will not work, then by all means I will loop. Punching is just something I'm very comfortable with. I have been watching a lot of Chan Kazuhiro's matches lately as he is a great exponent of this style. Kazuhiro beating Ma Long 3-0: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KikoZo8wLY Edited by cls2222 - 04/26/2011 at 2:26pm |
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king_pong
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That's very true. Good point about variation and intuition. I think the punch block looks like a VERY effective tool. Also, thanks for the tip on this match. Never seen Ma Long go down in 3 before. I hadn't heard of Kazuhiro before this match. Edited by king_pong - 04/26/2011 at 6:41pm |
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kenneyy88
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Be realistic about your abilities and play that way until you can improve. Later, you can try to improve to loop everything.
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tpgh2k
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pretty much everything in that game was a block and counters....one bh punch can be seen at the 1:16 mark in the video...
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cls2222
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A backhand counter is pretty much the same as a punch. The contact is the same, just the follow through might look different because the arm and wrist swings out farther. A BH punch does not necessarily need extreme power to be a called a punch. The difference between Kauzhiro's counters and other players' counters is that he puts in a lot more speed into his, which is why I described them as punches. Check out the slow-mo at 3:26 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aGtnvmUvUc |
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tpgh2k
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i can see your argument when you put it that way. it boils down to terminology but we both mean the same thing =).
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JimT
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Renamed the thread - please EVERYBODY! do NOT give your threads like "BH" or "Help" - this is very non-informative and confusing.
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cls2222
Silver Member Joined: 10/23/2010 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 646 |
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It was actually named "Backhand Punching vs. Looping and Driving" before I changed it to BH as it was getting practically no views. |
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pingpongpaddy
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This almost sounds as though looping is the main purpose of the game rather than just one of the many tools that players can use! I have certainly seen a few players who, in learning to loop everything spoiled their games by losing variety and power. |
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inactive dotec carbokev
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kenneyy88
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It all depends on the level you are trying to obtain. Higher level players simply cannot afford to be countering/punching the ball anymore. But it is good for control and power at other levels of the game. This game is dominated by looping. The toughest shot to develop is the backhand counterloop in the game. That is why it starts to appear around the USATT lvl of 2400. Any level below this, I think its fine to have variety. But the advantages of topspin is so great, if you backhand loop, it is most likely you'll get a block back.
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pingpongpaddy
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Sometimes however, topspin is unnecessary and also assists opponent because the top provides a "nicer ball" to attack, whereas a flatter shot has more penetration, and is more difficult to defend against. The main use of topspin is to provide a better margin for error on attacking shots, but to do it unnecessarily is a defect. Indeed If i can identify one characteristic that separates Asia from europe it is that the europeans use more spin and less speed and power compared with the asians. Perhaps Europe's honorable exception is HeZhi Wen who ironically enough is a pimples out hitter! |
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inactive dotec carbokev
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Vladovich
Gold Member Joined: 05/29/2008 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 1720 |
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Backhand punch is one of my favorite shots, but, as I change my equipment from Kong Linghui & Faster Transcend, to Primorac Off- & Sriver L, I found it much harder to aim to the certain point at the other side of the table, and I make more errors on this shot, since I feel that my equipment is softer and bends more.
At the other hand, with this setup I feel that I improved every other shot, especially consistency of backhand top spin and loop, but as I like to play close to table I still punch it a lot. So currently I have no idea should I change equipment or just practice backhand punch more with this setup. Is there a lot of difference between equipment demand when punching and when looping, and where is a golden middle?
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cls2222
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Quote from William Henzel on thread: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40196&PN=1&title=blade-feel-does-it-matter Hi cls2222. It sure is - I've recently set up this account to try to get a little publicity for my new website. Look, there are plenty of good players playing with fast blades and they are certainly able to attack well. My point is that a faster blade will usually encourage you to be more passive with your shots; the lower the throw of the racket the more you'll have to lift your shots to get the ball up and over the net. A practical example of this is when the opponent does a low spinny
topspin shot. If you want to counter-topspin the ball you'll firstly
need to close your racket angle (angle your racket forwards) to counter
the topspin (or else the ball will just fly off the end of the table).
As you can imagine, using a closed racket angle with a fast blade that's
got a low throw will be difficult - the ball is naturally drawn
downwards by the fast equipment and you'll have to be extremely precise
in finding the right racket angle.
Compare that to a slower blade that has a higher throw - the blade
naturally produces a higher ball arc over the net (as the ball sinks
down further into blade) and you gain more margin for error in your
stroke. In real terms this generally means that players using faster
blades are more restricted with what they can and can't do with their
shots and this leads them to be more passive in their games.
The upside of the faster equipment is that you are required to put
less effort into the shots and can 'steer' the ball instead of
constantly having to produce your own pace. I do miss how the fast blade
I was using (Mazunov) allowed me to keep the ball low, especially on my
first topspins. Keeping the ball low is very important to me and my
game. and You're welcome. Slower blades are often softer but not necessarily I'm sure there will be some serious equipment junkies here who can tell you the exact properties of all the different types of wood. Just to confuse matters, the thickness of the blade will obviously affect the weight and that in turn affects the speed of the blade. Let's walk through it one step at a time - think of the ball
hitting your racket, sinking down through the rubber sheet, down through
the sponge and into the blade. The harder the wood, the less the ball
will sink into the blade and the straighter, higher rebound the ball
will have. The softer the wood, the more the ball sinks in (increasing
the dwell time) before being thrown back out and the higher the arc of
the ball.
The heavier the racket, the more weight you'll have moving forwards
when making contact with the ball and harder it will probably be
to control the shot.
I've never tried the Waldner Senso Carbon I'm afraid. I believe
that Stiga blades have a woody feel to them and softer wood than many
others, which means increased dwell time. I'd say that is why the
Chinese love them so much - very hard Chinese rubbers that would be much
harder to control with hard wood blades. Butterfly make nice blades too
and the Timo Boll Spirit is popular. I've heard good things about the
Maze blade as well which is slower/softer than TBS. Nittaku blades seem
to have a good name but I haven't tried any. Edited by cls2222 - 04/27/2011 at 5:09pm |
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Vladovich
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So faster equipment will make punch easier because you use opponent's pace in that shot. Also it will make opening loop harder to execute?
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cls2222
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Not as much faster as stiffer. A stiffer blade lowers the trajectory making it easier to keep balls low but it can be harder to make spinny, arcing loops because the trajectory is longer and harder to control. A fast blade that has a lot of flex will make the bounce very "bouncy." However, a slow and stiff blade can be give you the best of both worlds if you are looking for a good blocking blade with looping potential. However, as William Henzel states, you will have to put more effort behind your shots. I like my Korbel SK7 because it is medium in terms of softness, has a good amount of speed, especially for an all-wood blade, and is rather stiff so it gives me everything that I like in a blade. Weight is not really an issue for me. |
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apflor323
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IMHO opinion, if you look at the components of each shot, with a punch/counter, you opponent has to compensate for the speed of the return. When it comes to looping, compensation then has to be for speed and spin of the ball. I may be wrong, but this might be the reason your coach wants you to perform more loops. Plus also, the spin applied to the ball will help it arc downwards and increase the chances of your return going in.
Just my 2 cents.....
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blahness
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I think for me, the trend nowadays is to have a compact and spinny backhand, like ZJK, Ma Long and Wang Hao, that way they gain both speed and spin with a very fast forward motion, combining the advantages of looping(spin) and punching(speed). But this is very hard to develop and train!
I think punching has a much lower margin of error compared to looping, but it's very hard for the opponent to return a high quality punch since they don't have any spin to borrow, lots of them just go directly into the net. The deeper and lower your opponent's ball, the less accurate punching becomes.
Personally I use the punch against higher, shorter balls, and loop against lower, deeper balls.
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Vladovich
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So, where to go from Primorac Off-, if I want to trade some flex for some stiffness, and maintain similar speed and feel? I tried Petr Korbel OFF, and as you said, it is faster and also has a lot of flex, so it is bouncy and that doesn't help. Also, Kong Linghui Euro, is too stiff and thick blade so I have hard time with everything except punches.
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cls2222
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I've never played with Primorac Off- so I won't be able to give you an accurate comparison, but I wouldn't worry too much about the equipment; good technique allows you to play with any kind of blade or rubber. If the Petr Korbel is too flexy for you, you can try the SK7 or a Clipper as they are a little stiffer, but thicker at 7mm (at least the SK7) as well. Many very good players are using the Clipper (and the new version at that, not the famous 25 year old Stiga blades), so that it is a good, full-proof setup. Based on a review somewhere on this site, I heard that Clipper is a bit stiffer than the Korbel and the Korbel SK7 so it could be what your looking for. It's famous for being a great looping blade so looping shouldn't be a problem either.
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cls2222
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True. Basically the last thing you said is what I'm thinking of putting into my game instead of looping everything. I have a more compact backhand stroke, although I've been having trouble in the recent weeks with using it in games. I was playing much better with my BH today, however, so if I stabilize my mindset for looping with my BH, I'll finally have a good BH loop stroke to use. I EJ way too much with my strokes I used to try to play a BH like ZJK and Ovtcharov but now I'm playing a BH stroke similar to Boll's because it just feels so much more natural to me and since I'm taller at 6'2, I can still get a lot of power with it. I do make adjustments for my stroke when I'm far away from the table, however, where I use a much larger swing compared to the Boll style stroke I just mentioned. Since I'm a FH dominant player with a FH optimized ready position, I'm making a resolution to stick with my current backhand stroke because as Massimo Constantini stated in his recent USATT article, the backhand should be more of a "continuation" than a point-winning shot. Edited by cls2222 - 04/28/2011 at 2:17am |
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cls2222
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Actually, my coach's coach wants me to loop everything . My coach's philosophy is to play strokes with a very low margin for error, only increasing power when your position enables you to engage every part of your body for the stroke, which increases control. For example, if your opponent played a slow, easy ball (not high, however) to your wide forehand and you were waiting in a FH position after a step-around in the BH corner, he would advise me to get into position fast and spin the ball instead of cross-stepping (unless it was an emergency and side-stepping was the only option) and looping it with much more power. However, if I was waiting in a neutral position, such as my serve receive position, and I got a slow, easy ball on my wide forehand, he would advise me to put all the power (note that I'm talking about a simple block or counterhit, which are balls that have easily predictable spin) I can get into it because I have a much lower margin for error than I do when in the previous scenario. Edited by cls2222 - 04/28/2011 at 2:20am |
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pingpongpaddy
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An all topspin strategy seems a bit defensive to me. To me it reduces the likelihood of going for those "opportunity balls" that come up in tt |
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inactive dotec carbokev
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cls2222
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True, but learning to keep the ball on the table and force the opponent into a rally is much better for improving rally techniques than outright loop-killing the ball non compos mentis. One of my problems when I started playing was trying to viciously attack long and even barely long pushes, serves, and blocks even if I was out of position.
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debraj
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Kreanga punches! ...he supposedly has good BH.
Zhang Jike loops! ... he supposedly has a good BH. i do both... but still people say i'm not as good as both of them... while styles may differ, performance and results equate them. |
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bozbrisvegas
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always punch if the ball is high enough and loop if it lower / near net height or under.
Edited by bozbrisvegas - 05/10/2011 at 5:27am |
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BH-Man
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A lot of Korean coaches heavily stress the importance of these "Continuation" or "Connection" shots in a rally. It is surprising how paralyzing a well placed, slow stroke, low speed/spin topspin spin ball can be. Gets an error out of the over-aggressive types. Forces the opponent to play a safe shot, which lets you keep the initiative. More and more Korean coaches are advising players to go shakehand for the BH possibilities. Shakehand can put away a lot of balls on the BH side that are low percentage for a J-Penner. Shakhand can use BH for applying pressure much easier than a J-Pen. Not saying J-Pen is impossible, just shakehand makes it easier on BH side. A lot of former Penholders are now shakehand here.
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BH-Man
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Another thing worthy of discussion is how to anticipate and judge which balls to use a BH or FH attack, when a ball is hit towards you and both shots are possible.
When I grew my FH, I pretty much was step around happy. Now the FH grew some, I see it is also valuable to use a BH opener if I can to get a ball to go FH offfensive. So what if it takes one shot longer to apply FH pressure or shot winning power, a lot of those balls I opened on FH came back to FH side vs the better players and I was in mad scramble emergency mode just to stay alive after they BH punched my FH opener. The more power I put into that opener, the harder it was to get to the punch block on FH side.
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BH-Man
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Maybe another thing to discuss is what practice combinations you all use to train your possible scenarios for BH open, then BH/FH attack or what combinations you use to setup opponent to attack where you punchblock/counter/whatever.
Coach has started moving me into a number of combinations in multiball practice. I am so glad my opponents do not play so well (like how it goes in multiball) in a match or I would be toast.
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