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need help with counterloop |
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tpgh2k
Platinum Member Joined: 09/14/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2103 |
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Posted: 05/04/2011 at 2:03pm |
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as the topic heading says, i'm having a bit of trouble with this shot right now (close to the table). i believe it's b/c i'm keeping the blade face too closed...the ball goes into the net. it's from a relatively fast loop...not loop drive (so about 75-80% loop). i feel like i have enough time to react to it, maybe i'm a bit late.
so its either a) blade face too closed. b)i'm too slow. and/or c) my wrist was too tense... any ideas or suggestions? |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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Over-the-table counterloop, what the Chinese call the "quick carry." Isn't it just a very abbreviated looping motion, with less turn and swing? You still swing on edge from low to high to brush the ball, but more from the elbow and quite a bit less from the shoulder and upper arm. If this concept is correct (I'm executing the stroke this way) then it's just a matter of calibration and experience, like knowing how much to close the blade when blocking. Like you said, perhaps you're misjudging the actual amount of topspin on the incoming shot and your blade is too closed as a result.
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ttEDGE - William
Super Member Joined: 02/24/2011 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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This is a difficult ball for many players and one of the most advanced shots in the game. When counterspins go into the net (especially when close to the table), it usually means that your rackethead speed is too slow on contact with the ball and that you're hitting the ball too flatly.
I'm working on this myself at the moment and my goal is to make contact on top of the ball, get my wrist rotating through quickly on contact and to stay stiff and strong in my abdominal muscles whilst getting some rotation from my hips and shoulder. Watch Timo's forehand counterspin - this is one of the reasons he can match it with the Chinese! Edited by ttEDGE - William - 05/04/2011 at 3:19pm |
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DeIgado
Silver Member Joined: 07/14/2010 Location: Rockin the USA Status: Offline Points: 711 |
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back away from the table, an over the table counterloop is basically a glorified block. If your are trying to outright counterloop you should still be swinging up with a more closed paddle face but a little off the table theres no need to stand right at the table when ure gonna need more time to get a full swing at it
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ttEDGE - William
Super Member Joined: 02/24/2011 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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It is common to find yourself having to counterspin close to the table as there often just isn't time to back off. The point of standing closer is so that you don't need to have a full swing at the ball. A full swing is a luxury the better you get.
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iCanLoopHard
Super Member Joined: 01/17/2011 Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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yea i was thinking maybe u swinging too hard. lessen up and focus on having good contact and hitting the table. adjust either u speed of ur stroke and/or open the paddle more. gotta find that easy median between the two
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tpgh2k
Platinum Member Joined: 09/14/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2103 |
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some really good replies! thanks! yea....i can't back off the table delgado...never had time and if i did, i wouldn't be able to reach the ball even if i tried...the rallies are too fast paced for me to even consider it.
William (our resident expert) has probably hit the nail right on the head. my swing isn't fast enough. i am using the abbreviated swing motion (elbow and wrist snap) but i think it's just too closed. i'll try opening a bit and focusing more on a bit more up spin. maybe it's just the chinese rubber that makes it hard.....
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ttEDGE - William
Super Member Joined: 02/24/2011 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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And you'll HAVE to use an abbreviated swing motion as there just won't be time for a long swing. Of course I don't know how your rubbers and rackets feel like but I'd be cautious about opening your racket angle too much. Controlling a counterspin with an open racket angle is extremely difficult.
It's funny - I was having this exact conversation with the coach here at the academy, Ricard Prause, today. I'm only here for a week and we were going through a list of things I am to work with over the next few months until I come back in September. He summed it up so well - as long as I'm hitting with a flat contact on the counterspin, I am always going to feel that my rubbers are crap, that I'm not getting enough lift on the ball and that my shots are going into the net. He said that Ma Lin was the real master at rotating his wrist through on contact when counterspinning but that Timo's (he coached Timo every match for a number of years) ability to do this as well was one of the main reasons he kept up with the Chinese in loop loop and counterspinning. He said the Chinese were so surprised that Timo could counterspin so well on his forehand and that his very strong ab muscles and wrist rotation were the keys. Just make sure your racket head speed is high too and that you are hitting on the top of the ball. The key about having strong, stable abs contracting at exactly the same time as your wrist rotates through on contact is for recovery after each shot. He likened counterspinning without tense, strong abs to a flat bicycle tire tube being twisted. So guess what I'll be doing for the next few months... The guy really is a genius and I'm learning so much every day here! Edited by ttEDGE - William - 05/04/2011 at 4:49pm |
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tpgh2k
Platinum Member Joined: 09/14/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2103 |
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soak it all up and teach me!!!! i know for sure that i don't do the abdominal twist with the shot. maybe a little side lean but that's it. it's just so hard focusing on spinning the ball when it's coming at you so fast....hopefully i'll get the hang of it over time.
ps: i'm now having trouble receiving pure sidespin (or side/top) serve (bh serve) with my bh. i can't seem to get on top of it enough to make it stay on the table. i try to do a short bh counterloop (not a block) and it goes past the table....
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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The ab contraction braces against the swing, stops the stroke quickly to allow for a fast recovery, not contribute power to the stroke, correct? Thanks.
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ttEDGE - William
Super Member Joined: 02/24/2011 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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It's important to try to get rotation from the hip to start the start. This forwards movement/acceleration will make it much easier for your upper body, arm and racket to gain the necessary speed than if you try to just bring your arm through.
The ab contraction is for recovery yes! |
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popperlocker
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1753 |
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a stable core is important in tt. The adjustment i made was to hit the side of the ball. I was also having trouble with this shot and stumbled upon this article. After I made this adjustment, my close to table counterlooping percentage when up tremendously. Once, you read the article(the ball spin part) it makes sense. It's physics, attacking the ball head on where most of the spin is present is very difficult. Instead moving towards the side/axis where there is less spin, will give you much more leeway. Before counterlooping closetotable heavy spin openers was 2/10. Now it's more like 7/10. countering blocks was like 6/10, now it's more like 8/10
http://www.tabletennis.gr/chinese-forehand-foreward-loop-guide.html
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ttEDGE - William
Super Member Joined: 02/24/2011 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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I agree with most of the article (which is very insightful) but have a different view in some areas. For instance, the racket angle needs to be constantly adjusted depending on the height, spin, dip, etc of your opponent's topspin as well as your distance from the table. Blindly using a 80% - 90% angle is just not optimal. A part of the reason for using your wrist to rotate over the ball on contact is so that you don't NEED to have an open racket angle.
There are also definite advantages to be gained by being able to vary your racket angle to generate different amounts of dip on your shot. For instance a more open racket angle will produce a higher throw over the net and a more closed angle will produce a lower through. Sure it's tough to get to the level that you are able to think about this (instead of just trying to get it back!!) but it's worth keeping in mind for players of all levels. One thing that really struck me while watching the Chinese practice here is how early they try to take the ball when counterspinning ie always out in front of their bodies. As soon as they let the ball come too close they are forced to open their racket faces and have more upwards movement on their shots which then makes body position and recovery more difficult. |
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vali
Super Member Joined: 11/30/2007 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 133 |
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Yeap, I noticed that too, especially looking at Zhang Jike. |
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tomas.gt
Silver Member Joined: 12/07/2008 Location: Czech Republic Status: Offline Points: 548 |
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I used to have 2 problems: ball went into the net or behind the table. I solved it the way I stopped brushing the ball, because I had hard time to catch the right timing and adjust the blade angle. Instead of brushing and trying to overspin the incoming topspin, I added forward speed of my arm, more like loop driving. it is much more secure.
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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I have multiball sessions and there is a wall less than 2 meters behind the table, which makes me stay pretty close to the table, which makes me have to loop/recover/loop pretty quickly. Sometime shortly after coach started upping the pace of the blocks and I gained more consistancy, I noticed the day after the lesson that my abs felt like they were really worn out, like I did several sets of 100 situps. That made little sense to me at the time as I have a pretty strong core, but now, that explaination makes a lot of sense to that situation.
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ttEDGE - William
Super Member Joined: 02/24/2011 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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Well I guess that means you are doing a pretty good already. Focus on this next time you're working with your coach and feel to see which of the muscles are working.
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tpgh2k
Platinum Member Joined: 09/14/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2103 |
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that's true! i did that once and felt like my abs were on fire! i thought it was because of the follow through...not the recovery!
i learn something new all the time =) |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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William, how about a short explaination on how the grip affects the shot, like the type of grip, grip changes, and how tight/loose the grip? Sorry to sound like I am bugging you (American expression for bothering), but is how you learn quicker, especially with languages. (Which I bet you also picked up a few over the years)
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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I'm impressed by how quickly the pros can execute FH loops, one after another, when they're warming up. This is especially evident in the way the Chinese pros warm up. Even with their relatively extended arm configuration, they're able to swing, reset, and swing again with amazing speed. This is only possible by controlling the upper torso and arm with the core --- hips, lower back, and the abs, while bracing the core movements against the legs.
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ttEDGE - William
Super Member Joined: 02/24/2011 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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@BH - this is a really enormous question to answer! But in general the counterspin will be difficult if the wrist and grip are not relaxed enough to be able to rotate over the top of the ball on contact. I think backhand dominated players (I would be one of these) who play with backhand favoured grips can struggle a bit with this in high speed rallies. The wrist is not as mobile for FH counterspins when in the backhand grip position.
Another problem many players face (and which I'm guilty of too) is that we drop the racket head too far down at the beginning of the forehand counterspinning instead of keeping it high (maybe shoulder height or similar) and adjusting the height of the rest of the body to compensate for the height of the opponent's shots.
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Defplayer
Super Member Joined: 06/21/2008 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 133 |
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Hey William, Thumbs up for going out of your way for helping and providing insight (Chinese practice etc) to everyone in this forum !
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