Traditional penhold backhand?

THE GAMEr wrote: So, yet another question...I'm full of 'em! Can a TBH be as powerful/effective as RPB? I know it depends on the situation, but i mean in general. it is difficult to develop both and use both, so i want to stick to mainly just one. can you get an effective bachand topspin with cpen TBH? i know you can with jpen (kim taek soo=excellence!) with much practice, so i shouldn't see why not with cpen! I kinda like the TBH better than the RPB, but if it would be better to learn....any advice?

HM, thanks for the quick replies! So I can learn both then and they wouldn't mess each other up? ok. i suppose I'll keep working on both. And should my grip be with them stacked (only middle finger touching BH rubber) or flattened but curled (all 3 touching the rubber) if i want to do both?

THE GAMEr wrote: HM, thanks for the quick replies! So I can learn both then and they wouldn't mess each other up? ok. i suppose I'll keep working on both. And should my grip be with them stacked (only middle finger touching BH rubber) or flattened but curled (all 3 touching the rubber) if i want to do both?

 RPB has only one clear advantage over the PB - at very high level you can use it with great success in counter looping rallies. Which combined with his talent and devotement to it  is the reason why Wang Hao is so successful. However, the lower the level, the greater the advantage of the penhold backhand. At the highest level both styles are equally competitive, though it is much harder to use successfully the traditional style at the highest level. In the 80's and 90's many attempts were made to develop the traditional backhand topspin stroke. The only player who managed to achieve it was Domuschiev, who used his unique technique to beat players like Gatien, Persson, Waldner and most impressively he beat the 8-time  Japanese champion Kiyoshi Saito. Since then the further development of this technique has been abandoned.

Edited by ChichoFicho - 07/12/2011 at 11:24am

I think you should learn RPB because it is an very effective shot.  I would prefer playing against a traditional pendholder than one with RPB any day.  Furthermore, from what I can see, RPB seems to be an easier shot to learn than TPB.  I don't see many players with a powerful and consistent TPB.  But most players who picks up RPB early in their development, can flip and loop with power, spin, and consistency.

I disagree with the lower level-more effective tbh point. It comes down to efficiency and body mechanics. TBH is very very much an unnatural position for your body to be in and make a shot from. The people who are good at it are very much drilled into it and many would say if they could have learned RPB from the start they would choose to. RPB is much more natural, powerful, and efficient. That's all there is to it. The TBH's use in the modern game is simply as an extra option for more variation... but shot to shot against RPB really has no comparison- you can generate much more with RPB in terms of pace and spin. TBH is a placement shot or borrowed power shot 100% and people who try to generate lots of power with it are doing something even more unnatural than the shot itself.

Well, ok, there's a bit of debate over the subject i see. I guess I'll practice both! I like the TBH more (much more fun) but I've been told that my RPB is hard to return. However, one of the guys in that club (jpen, but I think it would still be effective cpen) has a very fast backhand loop drive/hit. granted it isn't nearly as good as his FH, but that gives me hope for TBH. Still , I shall utilize both, I suppose.

All TBH players know the limitations of the TBH. The limitations have been well known for a long time.

I think sandiway and beeray1 make some excellent points about RPB and TBH. The RPB certainly allows one to initiate attacks more readily from various positions and the TBH--definitively--works against normal human body mechanics.

However, based on some recent experience with some truly skilled TBH practitioners, I also have to agree with LiXiao and ChichFicho.

If developed properly, the TBH allows for a variety of subtle and deceptive strokes. It is quick, efficient, and devious (in a good way ). ChichoFicho, in another thread, made an excellent point about not quitting a certain style because you struggle, but rather just work harder to develop that style. I think this is excellent advice. I've recently seen the TBH taken to the 2300-2400 level and it is impressive, to say the least. I speculate that many lower level players simply give up on the TBH before ever attaining this type of skill. LiXiao (I think it was him) mentioned a vid of LGL demonstrating the many techniques of the TBH. I've seen something similar, and it is fascinating.

Yet, the TBH is a "reactive" shot. To be effective (or rather, to be most effective) it requires the opponent to attack. Few people can perform an opening loop with the TBH and even fewer can do so effectively. Instead, they either have to push or run around the table like a mad man attacking with their forehand. The TBH, as I've seen it, requires the opponent's power to use it against him or her (and occasionally to remove power or change the spin to destroy the opponent's timing). Nonetheless, the TBH is fairly impotent with regards to initiating attack, unlike the RPB that can initiate devastating attacks.

I would love to be excellent at both. I think this is possible and the proof is in Ma Lin. He is (arguably) the greatest player ever to play the game. However, he also started very early in life and has access to the greatest table tennis resources on the planet. For many (most?) of us, it is unrealistic to think we will be outstanding at our forehand, outstanding at our TBH, and outstanding at our RPB. With increased choices come the larger reaction-time bill to pay.

Since I started late in life and don't currently have access to a coach, I want to simplify my life and pick one of the two backhands in which to excel. Personally, I chose RPB, simply because I came from shakehand so it's more intuitive and because I think it provides more of the options that are better suited toward modern table tennis. This is a personal decision and I'm not suggesting it's the "right" one. It's just the right one for me.

Nonetheless, I hope to develop at least a decent TBH eventually. I've seen its potential and I found it too powerful a tool to ignore. It is truly an art form and I highly respect the skills of those who have committed to it.




Edited by Anton Chigurh - 07/13/2011 at 12:27am

yeah that guy looks like a cheetah- built for speed.

Anton Chigurh wrote: Since I started late in life and don't currently have access to a coach, I want to simplify my life and pick one of the two backhands in which to excel. Personally, I chose RPB, simply because I came from shakehand so it's more intuitive and because I think it provides more of the options that are better suited toward modern table tennis. This is a personal decision and I'm not suggesting it's the "right" one. It's just the right one for me.

The TPB block is quick to learn and very useful. The offensive block (punch) is also not so difficult to use against weak balls. Because of its quickness you can effectively jam your opponent and prevent them from getting off a strong shot.

rick_ys_ho wrote: opinari wrote: Just to give my two cents, I'd recommend any new penhold player to learn only the RPB and ignore the traditional backhand.  I agree. I'd also recommend new penholder players to get a penholder coach. I'd even recommend new TT players, especially kids, to learn SH instead of PH.

If Guo YueHua is still playing at his peak today, he would be in top ten. He is the best attacking Cpen (traditional) player I've ever seen. So yes, IMO, even traditional Cpen BH can be effective. But at the highest level, you need special talent like Guo, Liu, and Ma Lin to be able to use traditional PH BH.